unodos1011 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Since I've been lied to from the beginning about the extent of the A, I feel slightly justified. However, I see this as a bad path to be on...it feels wrong. On another note, he has told me that the OW never crosses his mind, but his texts to his brother say that he's having a hard time struggling with hisbe lied feelings for her. Is it normal to be lied to like this?? I don't know why I do this to myself...
reboot Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Yes, they lie when the truth would fit better. Yes, it's OK to snoop.
silic0ntoad Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Personally I feel that: The best way to know they're cheating? Is having to ask the question in the first place. Snooping is fine; they will deflect and deny unless you have hard evidence. Before the A they wouldn't care if you looked. Now they are hard on for secrecy. Pathetic. I say snoop away, find any evidence, and then lay down an ultimatum; complete disclosure, in order to rebuild trust, or I am getting the **** outta here.
Author unodos1011 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Posted October 4, 2011 Sorry for the typos! That should say that he told his brother that he is struggling with feelings for her.
Buck Turgidson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Since I've been lied to from the beginning about the extent of the A, I feel slightly justified. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you were lied to and don't like it, then you have the option to accept it and stay, or reject it and leave. You don't have the option of betraying his trust the same way he betrayed yours. Think for a second about why cheating is wrong. It's wrong because it's a breach of trust--- that's what you're feeling right now: betrayal. You propose to return his betrayal with a betrayal of your own. That doesn't make things right, it just makes them even. You'll each be just as bad as the other. However, I see this as a bad path to be on...it feels wrong. It feels wrong because it is wrong. Because it is a betrayal. It's a breach of trust, exactly as much as cheating is. If you hate him so much that you feel it necessary to betray him, then just break up. It's easier that way, and then maybe you'll find someone you're actually compatible with that won't drive you to want to betray.
reboot Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Two wrongs don't make a right. If you were lied to and don't like it, then you have the option to accept it and stay, or reject it and leave. You don't have the option of betraying his trust the same way he betrayed yours. Think for a second about why cheating is wrong. It's wrong because it's a breach of trust--- that's what you're feeling right now: betrayal. You propose to return his betrayal with a betrayal of your own. That doesn't make things right, it just makes them even. You'll each be just as bad as the other. It feels wrong because it is wrong. Because it is a betrayal. It's a breach of trust, exactly as much as cheating is. If you hate him so much that you feel it necessary to betray him, then just break up. It's easier that way, and then maybe you'll find someone you're actually compatible with that won't drive you to want to betray. She's talking about snooping on him, not cheating on him.
Buck Turgidson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 She's talking about snooping on him, not cheating on him. So her proposed betrayal is a different kind than his. What's your point, exactly?
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I think the point is very clear. There'd be no need to snoop if he wasn't engaged in behavior that required her to do so. If he didn't have an affair...if he was honest about it to begin with, etc... Snooping wouldn't have ever been on the agenda. Also...there's a distinct difference between privacy and secrecy. He's been engaged in secrecy...and frankly, once that's done, you've given up any realistic expectations of privacy. Don't think it's fair? Don't engage in an affair...don't deceive your spouse and give them reasons to feel the need to verify your trustworthiness or not. Not rocket science.
Spark1111 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I think the point is very clear. There'd be no need to snoop if he wasn't engaged in behavior that required her to do so. If he didn't have an affair...if he was honest about it to begin with, etc... Snooping wouldn't have ever been on the agenda. Also...there's a distinct difference between privacy and secrecy. He's been engaged in secrecy...and frankly, once that's done, you've given up any realistic expectations of privacy. Don't think it's fair? Don't engage in an affair...don't deceive your spouse and give them reasons to feel the need to verify your trustworthiness or not. Not rocket science. And, how about this? People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. If he is serious about restoring his marriage, HE should be handing over all his passwords to email and cell phone accounts to PROVE to his wife that what he says is true. He should be working to restore the trust he destroyed by any means available to him, even having conversations about his feelings with his wife, not his brother so she once again, feels betrayed by his lies to her. That is what intimacy is: Sharing all your feelings with each other, not just the ones you choose and pick. Sparing your spouse's feelings is a very neat justification to engage in an affair and keep it secret. Secrets KILL intimacy.
Spark1111 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 OP, snoop away until he willingly offers you all his passwords, shares ALL his feelings with you, or you feel safe again that the lies are over.
Snowflower Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Personally I feel that: The best way to know they're cheating? Is having to ask the question in the first place. Snooping is fine; they will deflect and deny unless you have hard evidence. Before the A they wouldn't care if you looked. Now they are hard on for secrecy. Pathetic. I say snoop away, find any evidence, and then lay down an ultimatum; complete disclosure, in order to rebuild trust, or I am getting the **** outta here. This is a great post.^^^ Yep, once you have to ask the question if there is someone else, there is something wrong. When you are having to rely on the idea "well, I trust him/her, he/she wouldn't cheat on me..." Well, your relationship is in trouble. Once the trust trigger has flared, all bets are off. You are asking the questions, wondering, have that sick feeling in your gut and sometimes it is necessary to resort to snooping. You have to have experienced such a massive breach of your trust to truly understand. (you in the general sense, not directed at anyone in particular )
freestyle Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Considering what the stakes are--I think it's okay. If normal communication has failed to bring the truth to the surface, and the wayward party is actively gaslighting the other party: "It's just your imagination......" "You're seeing things that aren't there." "You're just being paranoid/insecure/controlling" "What, don't you trust me??? " *sniff* *sniff* Once the gaslighting has begun---which is a very cruel psychological trick to play on someone--turning the tables by insisting someone's perception of reality is faulty--- The potentially betrayed party can sit and second-guess themselves--and wonder if they're losing their mind, because their gut is still ringing loud alarm bells that something's not right--- OR they can take the necessary steps to verify that they are being told the truth.They can confirm their suspicions. Again, consider what's at stake: emotional health capacity for trust financial health (possibly--what if the BS has been supporting the WS? Extra insult on injury in that scenario) Physical health--a cheater can put an unsuspecting spouse/partner at risk for any number of STD's. There's even been studies in recent years showing that cervical CANCER can actually be sexually transmitted. A week of penicillin ain't gonna "fix' that. Let alone, the potential death sentence from contracting AIDS......... With the stakes being that high--- I see nothing wrong with a person wanting to verify the truth, once reasonable and just cause to be suspicious has been raised. If one partner is acting out of character, and withholding normal communication,and responds with gaslighting--- I see that as just cause.
PegNosePete Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 You should not need to snoop. He should be showing you all communication anyway. He should be an open book. If he is not then it's time to re-visit the terms and conditions of your reconciliation.
Buck Turgidson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 So I guess the argument is "the ends justify the means," the ends being reconciliation, I suppose. And so everyone advises betrayal of trust in order to salve a betrayal of trust. A cycle of betrayal that will never, ever end. And that is what you all consider "love" (this being the Love Shack and all)? No thanks. Whether or not he did something to hurt her first, snooping is wrong. Would any of you filch through your best friend's mail or phone? I doubt it. You're supposed to treat your partner better than your best friend. But I don't see that here. Just a lot of "verify," that is to say, betray in secrecy, in the dark of night. If someone were doing that to me, the relationship would be over. There's no way I could carry on with someone who needed to snoop behind my back. That's no way to live a life. If that's what it takes, then the relationship is over already. I wouldn't hope for reconciliation, which betrayal ALWAYS will impede. You might learn the TRUTH, but at the expense of your own sincerity, and the willingness of your partner to continue. If you've decided to reconcile, then do it honestly. If you're driven to betray, then end it. Alas, I find myself in agreement with PegNosePete, who says that all this checking, if it's really so necessary, should happen out in the open. If you get his passwords, etc., and his permission for his e-mail, then so be it. But to do it surreptitiously is just as bad as breaking any other promise. I don't think all the checking is necessary, or desirable. He cheated. You now know you're with a cheater. No additional verification required. You know what he is. You don't need to snoop to know the kind of person you're partnered to. Your choice is to accept it (with the knowledge that cheating could happen again) or leave. I've been cheated on, and I've been snooped on, and I assure you that the feeling is the same.
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 So...to explain your viewpoint....just what, specifically, does "snooping" do to damage a marriage? What is your expectation of privacy in a marriage...and why do you feel it's so very important to the marriage? How does it help the marriage? How does it benefit the marriage and how does it outweigh the "risk" of it turning from privacy to 'secrecy', in which is fosters the hiding of pertinent information from your spouse? I get that you don't agree with it...that's fine. But why not? Give me the specific things that it harms, in the context I provided above.
reboot Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 People who consider their own personal privacy more important than their relationship should not get married.
Buck Turgidson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 So...to explain your viewpoint....just what, specifically, does "snooping" do to damage a marriage? What is your expectation of privacy in a marriage? My expectation of privacy in my marriage is basically the same as that in my best friendship. We each have our private space, which especially includes communication with friends, and we respect that space. The boundaries of that space are where we, together, decide they are. Wisdom is to have power, but not to use it. I'll show my wife my e-mails, phone calls, whatever, if she asks, and she knows I will. But each time she uses that power, she'll lose a little of my respect. Do it enough times, and I'm not going to want to be married to someone who's constantly keeping tabs on me. Marriage adds, not subtracts, from the pleasure of living. What does it harm? it harms the partnership. Partners don't violate each other's spaces, betray trusts, or interrogate each other. It harms the trust, because it's something a partner does to hurt the other by lying and deception. It harms the desire to live with someone. I'd rather be alone than with someone who feels it necessary to track my every move. It harms everything that cheating harms, except the risk of STDs, because it's a betrayal of the trust people are supposed to have with their partners. "Privacy" is different from "secrecy." This "People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing" bull**** is exactly that. People who say that gainsay themselves by living in houses with opaque walls and curtains on their windows. Why do they do that if they have nothing to hide and glass houses are pretty? I have curtains on my e-mail and phone windows too. We all do, at least to some extent. Maybe my curtains are heavier and thicker than others. I'll open them if asked, but it's humiliating to do so, it possibly betrays confidences with others, and I would never ask that of someone else and expect to remain their friend, much less their lover or husband. I expect the same of my wife.
Buck Turgidson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 People who consider their own personal privacy more important than their relationship should not get married. Thanks, but even those dastardly horrible people who disagree with you deserve to love and be loved in return.
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 BT...fair enough that you feel that way. I could spend a lot of time typing up a response to you trying to explain why I don't agree with you, but in reality I don't believe that I'll convince you to see my side, and I don't agree with yours. We have drastically different views on marriage, the need for "privacy" in a marriage, and the value of "space" in a marriage. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As far as in the OPs case...how do you recommend that she actually get the "truth" of what happened, given that her H has ALREADY demonstrated to her that he's not trustworthy and won't admit to the truth when questioned/confronted? What course of action do you suggest for her? Me...I suggest she snoop, for all the reasons I've given. What do you recommend that she do?
painfullyobvious Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Once I snooped it was a sign to myself that the relationship was in big trouble possibly over and yet I did not care. I needed to know the truth and confront her with tangible evidence. When I went snooping I indeed found what I needed and she could no longer lie. She attempted to state that I violated her privacy and that was how she attempted to turn the tables when arguing about the affair. I moved out a short time later once I had what I needed in the form of proof. My ex-girlfriend spent so much time telling me I was paranoid about the time she spent with her male friends. Looking back I feel the moment I decided to look through her private belongings I was consciously ending the relationship because trust was gone or fading very fast.
freestyle Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Once I snooped it was a sign to myself that the relationship was in big trouble possibly over and yet I did not care. I needed to know the truth and confront her with tangible evidence. When I went snooping I indeed found what I needed and she could no longer lie. She attempted to state that I violated her privacy and that was how she attempted to turn the tables when arguing about the affair. I moved out a short time later once I had what I needed in the form of proof. My ex-girlfriend spent so much time telling me I was paranoid about the time she spent with her male friends. Looking back I feel the moment I decided to look through her private belongings I was consciously ending the relationship because trust was gone or fading very fast. Your story illustrates the point I was making in my last post. You didn't snoop UNTIL your exgf started to gaslight you about the true nature of 'friendships' with other men. You lost the relationship----but at least you were validated, before you wasted another moment of your life investing in someone who would lie to you, or string you along as a back-up plan, or safety net. and it reinforced your ability to trust your own radar, which can be severely damaged by gaslighting, especially if it goes on for too long. I'm very sorry you had to go through that , by the way---my heart goes out to you. Once the gaslighting starts, I think snooping is acceptable---but only in that case. Snooping , just for the sake of snooping isn't cool.
Summer Breeze Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I don't think it's ok to snoop but not because of anything other than the fact you're in a situation where you don't trust the person closest to you. Why would you want to stay and put yourself through that. Who cares what it does to him? What is living in that doing to you?
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I don't think it's ok to snoop but not because of anything other than the fact you're in a situation where you don't trust the person closest to you. Why would you want to stay and put yourself through that. Who cares what it does to him? What is living in that doing to you? So your expectation would be that everyone who's ever been in a position where they sense something wrong and suspect that their spouse may be lying about infidelity (or something else) should immediately seperate, divorce, and never look back, based entirely on an unsubstantiated feeling (at that point)?
confusedandupset Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I am more than sure that if any of you spoke to my exbf he would tell you we broke up because I snooped through his phone. But, I will never regret that I did, and that would be my response to anybody who will ask me about it. He wasn't prepared to tell me the reality of the situation with this other girl, and he tried all he could from the beginning to lie to me. I did give him the benefit of the doubt, of course I would have preferred it if he just wouldn't have forced me to snoop, because that's what he did. I found out the truth behind what he was planning to do, and I am proud of myself for holding my head high while I broke up with him and subsequently (because he stormed from his house with his whole family in the living room), excused his behavior and the termination of our relationship to his family. Why did I break up with him, because for one second after reading what I did I actually thought about saying nothing. That's when I realized I was willing to lose my own self respect for somebody who had told another girl, who didn't know me or us and who had continuously come between us, that he was planning on breaking up with me. Go ahead and snoop, but the penalties of snooping could subsequently end your relationship and you have to be prepared to accept that.
Spark1111 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 My expectation of privacy in my marriage is basically the same as that in my best friendship. We each have our private space, which especially includes communication with friends, and we respect that space. The boundaries of that space are where we, together, decide they are. Wisdom is to have power, but not to use it. I'll show my wife my e-mails, phone calls, whatever, if she asks, and she knows I will. But each time she uses that power, she'll lose a little of my respect. Do it enough times, and I'm not going to want to be married to someone who's constantly keeping tabs on me. Marriage adds, not subtracts, from the pleasure of living. What does it harm? it harms the partnership. Partners don't violate each other's spaces, betray trusts, or interrogate each other. It harms the trust, because it's something a partner does to hurt the other by lying and deception. It harms the desire to live with someone. I'd rather be alone than with someone who feels it necessary to track my every move. It harms everything that cheating harms, except the risk of STDs, because it's a betrayal of the trust people are supposed to have with their partners. "Privacy" is different from "secrecy." This "People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing" bull**** is exactly that. People who say that gainsay themselves by living in houses with opaque walls and curtains on their windows. Why do they do that if they have nothing to hide and glass houses are pretty? I have curtains on my e-mail and phone windows too. We all do, at least to some extent. Maybe my curtains are heavier and thicker than others. I'll open them if asked, but it's humiliating to do so, it possibly betrays confidences with others, and I would never ask that of someone else and expect to remain their friend, much less their lover or husband. I expect the same of my wife. The betrayal of trust from snooping or asking for transparency from the person you love most on the planet, i.e NOT A FRIEND, a life partner, does little damage in comparison to the betrayal of trust caused by infidelity. There are no confidences shared with a best friend that can hold a candle to confidences shared with a spouse. If your spouse is not your best friend, you probably should not be married.
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