no expectations Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I've been catching up on LS this morning and noticed a couple of times in different threads where a poster has asked... Has he/she ever cheated before with you or anyone else?" It makes me wonder. Many do not subscribe to the belief of "once a cheater, always a cheater" and there are many who truly believe their WS is a completely changed person. If you have been a BS or OW/OM and were embarking on a brand new relationship, would an infidelity in that potential partner's past be a deal breaker for you? Why or why not? Personally, to answer my own question, it would not be a deal breaker. However, if they were eventually unfaithful to me, I know that I would kick myself in the arse and ask myself why I didn't pay attention to the red flag.
Owl Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I'm probably the most recent person to have asked that particular question. Here's why. I don't personally subscribe to "once a cheater, always a cheater". I am a FIRM believer to "twice a cheater, always a cheater". If they've cheated before...it's a possibility. If they've cheated before, and you suspect (or know) that they're cheating now...this is an indication of mindset/personality more than a single time event. IF I were to be single again...knowledge that the person cheated on a previous spouse would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.
2sure Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I agree with OWL, I do believe people make mistakes they regret and then learn from them. My ex was a serial cheater and although that experience was/is traumatic and has made me gun shy..if someone disclosed to me that they cheated once and regretted it, I'd risk it. Besides, in the past I was an OW and I am 100% positive that I would never be in that position again. To me - Its all cheating, whether you are the married partner or not.
Quiet Storm Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 The reason that I think it can be a red flag is because having an affair is often an indication that the person has poor coping skills and/or bad boundaries. This person has needs, wants and desires (realistic or not) that are not being met at home. Or maybe they are just bored. Their reaction to the boredom or unmet needs is to put their needs first, and to go about meeting those needs in a sneaky or underhanded way. Many cheating men actually do not care WHO is meeting their needs, as long as their needs are being met. Instead of addressing the problems in the marriage, making the betrayed spouse see the gravity of their issues, getting couseling for themselves or the couple, being honest with their spouse about their infidelity...they lie, they cheat and sneak. People that can get over a moral hump in one area of their life, often do underhanded and sneaky things in MANY areas of their life. It's not just related to an unhappy marriage...it is the way they operate. They want what they want...and don't consider the feelings of others in their quest for self-fulfilment. Also, a person who values commitment AND has strong boundaries would not cheat. They would not allow the talking to progress to flirting to progress to sexting to progress to kissing to progress to sex. Everyone will eventually find themselves in situations where they are attracted to others. A person with strong boundaries does not act on their feelings and puts MORE distance between themselves and the attractive person to protect their relationship. A person with weak boundaries will feed the attraction, and they are often like this in other areas of their life. This makes them vulnerable to cheating during any down time in any relationship. They want to feel good and if their current wife or partner is not feeding their need for validation, they will see it elsewhere. So you can take a guy out of a bad marriage...but he is still going to be the same guy. A guy who is likely to fall back into his default ways of coping when things get hard. A guy with poor coping skills and weak boundaries...who was surely a part of what made that marriage bad to begin with.
spice4life Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I've been catching up on LS this morning and noticed a couple of times in different threads where a poster has asked... Has he/she ever cheated before with you or anyone else?" It makes me wonder. Many do not subscribe to the belief of "once a cheater, always a cheater" and there are many who truly believe their WS is a completely changed person. If you have been a BS or OW/OM and were embarking on a brand new relationship, would an infidelity in that potential partner's past be a deal breaker for you? Why or why not? Personally, to answer my own question, it would not be a deal breaker. However, if they were eventually unfaithful to me, I know that I would kick myself in the arse and ask myself why I didn't pay attention to the red flag. Good question and honestly, I'm not sure what I would do. It would depend on the reason they cheated. If the reason was due to them being a cake eater, I would find it hard to trust them and probably would not want a real relationship. If they cheated because they were in a bad situation or found out they simply weren't compatible with their spouse, I might consider a relationship. Only if they acknowledge and accept responsibilty for their choices though. They would really need to show me who they are as a real person and make me feel comfortable that they learned from the experience. In other words, they would need to show they have worked on the issues that led them there in the first place!
Summer Breeze Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I am not a believer in 1ce a cheater always a cheater. I believe that most As are the results of a perfect storm. The wind, the rain, the thunder and lightning all coming together to bring about a situation where things can happen if you're not careful. I believe that those people are caught in something for a myriad of reasons. Weakness, fear, feelings of loneliness. None are a good excuse I might add. I went out with someone who had cheated on his spouse years before. he was very honest and open about it. He explained what happened but never minimized the fact it was his fault. We had a lovely R and then I had to move a distance away for work. If the situation been different I think we could have had something very special. It depends on the situation and the person and where both of you are. Besides I've known a lot of men who have lied about cheating. Some that tell you they haven't, actually have. The players will always play.
So Very Confused Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I don't believe that once a cheater, always a cheater but I do think it's a relevant question. As a former OW, knowing that I was the 4th affair (that he admitted to) helped me to realize that I wasn't all that special in spite of what he said. If I had been his first, it would have been more believable that he was in a miserable situation and didn't know how to cope and just got caught up in something. Knowing that xMM had three before me, made it much easier for me to realistically see that he's just a cake eater. Of course in the beginning I was blind to all of that and wanted to believe he was a nice man in a bad marriage that was blindsided by my awesomeness. Looking back, I find it almost laughable that he admitted early on that he had had an emotional affair and one physical affair before ours but didn't want to admit he had three previously because he didn't want me to think he was a serial cheater. Yeah right. Whatever. I think anyone is capable of changing and doing the right thing and acting honorably. I don't think someone is capable of gaining integrity if they are still deceitful and unremorseful.
awkward Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I do believe once a cheater, always a cheater with one exception. If the cheater does the "work" it takes to fix the problem in themselves AND has genuine remorse for betraying another whether they reconcile or divorce. Without those things, to me, it seems like they will fall back on the same coping mechanisms they've used in the past when faced with difficult situations. If you're in an unhappy/unsatisfying marriage, does getting a girlfriend seem the best way to resolve the problem? Until they figure out why that's the way they chose to resolve their problem, I can't see how they would make a different choice later in life or even with a new partner.
East7 Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I agree with Owl, once a cheater is not always a cheater, but twice a cheater, hell, they are genetically cheaters. My xMW was a conflict-avoider. The A was her way to escape her M problems instead of trying to fix them. When the A ended she came back as soon as the dust settled because she was the same conflict avoider and told me that her M is still crappy (It didn't make any difference to me anymore). IMO, what is possible for a MW is resuming the A on and off with the same OM. rather then serial cheating (with different persons). Should my xMW divorce and run to me for a R, I would have very serious trust issues. That is one of the biggest reasons that even when MW/MM divorce they don't build a R with the OM/OW but eventually find someone else to win back the status of "good guy" / "good girl". Paradoxally while A in progress, the APs trust A LOT each-other. then when the OM/OW is thrown under the bus, the trust is destroyed as much as it is destroyed for teh BS. From what I have read, the AP who end up together wonder constantly "if she/he did it with me, would she/he do it to me?"
Confused4Now Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 I agree with Owl, once a cheater is not always a cheater, but twice a cheater, hell, they are genetically cheaters. My xMW was a conflict-avoider. The A was her way to escape her M problems instead of trying to fix them. When the A ended she came back as soon as the dust settled because she was the same conflict avoider and told me that her M is still crappy (It didn't make any difference to me anymore). IMO, what is possible for a MW is resuming the A on and off with the same OM. rather then serial cheating (with different persons). Should my xMW divorce and run to me for a R, I would have very serious trust issues. That is one of the biggest reasons that even when MW/MM divorce they don't build a R with the OM/OW but eventually find someone else to win back the status of "good guy" / "good girl". Paradoxally while A in progress, the APs trust A LOT each-other. then when the OM/OW is thrown under the bus, the trust is destroyed as much as it is destroyed for teh BS. From what I have read, the AP who end up together wonder constantly "if she/he did it with me, would she/he do it to me?" Excellent post EAST...I would 100% echo what you said. Not to mention your situation and mine are very similar.
fooled once Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 If you have been a BS or OW/OM and were embarking on a brand new relationship, would an infidelity in that potential partner's past be a deal breaker for you? Why or why not? Yes it would be a deal breaker for me because it shows he has no problem with lying, being dishonest, betrayed and having no loyalty.
OpenBook Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 IF I were to be single again...knowledge that the person cheated on a previous spouse would absolutely be a deal breaker for me. So you wouldn't re-marry your own W? Is she aware of this?
26pointblue Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I agree with Owl, once a cheater is not always a cheater, but twice a cheater, hell, they are genetically cheaters. I believe even a sereal cheater can change/reform. I agree with others that it is rare for any cheaters to change but it CAN happen. Maybe I'm naive but I believe in the humanity of people . . . our ability to wake up & change & want to be better people & to take active measures to get there. To me someone who has cheated on their spouse 100 times is capable of this as well as someone who has cheated on their spouse once. It may take a life-changing event or a huge wake up moment & it always takes a lot of work but it can be done. I feel I would be a hypocrite if I didn't think people could change because I myself have changed. I am not the person I was when I was an OW so perhaps a man I'm dating who disclosed to me that he had cheated before is no longer the person he was when he was an MM. In fact, I think the very fact that he was disclosing this information to me means he changed. Cheaters don't go around advertising that they're cheaters - they deny it, lie about it, minimize it, & I've found they even point out other people's cheating behavior & look down on it. So to me if a guy said, I made this mistake in my past that I am really ashamed of & feel bad about it, & I'm telling you because it may be a deal-breaker & I also want to make sure we start off on the right, honest foot - I think I would admire his honesty & courage to change, & feel that I had a guy who really worked on himself & was in the right place.
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) So you wouldn't re-marry your own W? Is she aware of this? Let's clarify this just a bit. I wouldn't have gotten to know my wife well enough to have considered marrying her, had she cheated prior to our meeting, and with my knowledge (NOW) of infidelity. When I met her she didn't have any "history", nor did I have this knowledge. So let's try not to give this shades of something that's not there. NOW...present day...if somehow reality were altered and I were to meet my wife for the first time today, given the knowledge that she had indeed cheated before and knowing what I do about infidelity...I wouldn't allow a relationship to begin between us. I would keep her at an emotional distance, and not permit myself to interact with her enough to allow a relationship to begin. See the difference? Thought I'd add this as well...if we were to seperate today...then whatever reason that caused us to divorce today PLUS all of the above...nope, I probably wouldn't remarry her under those circumstances. But...given that we're in a GREAT relationship currently...and she went through the one time and apparently learned through some pretty bitter experience...I'm quite happy with our marriage as it is now. Edited October 4, 2011 by Owl
Owl Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I believe even a sereal cheater can change/reform. I agree with others that it is rare for any cheaters to change but it CAN happen. Maybe I'm naive but I believe in the humanity of people . . . our ability to wake up & change & want to be better people & to take active measures to get there. To me someone who has cheated on their spouse 100 times is capable of this as well as someone who has cheated on their spouse once. It may take a life-changing event or a huge wake up moment & it always takes a lot of work but it can be done. I feel I would be a hypocrite if I didn't think people could change because I myself have changed. I am not the person I was when I was an OW so perhaps a man I'm dating who disclosed to me that he had cheated before is no longer the person he was when he was an MM. In fact, I think the very fact that he was disclosing this information to me means he changed. Cheaters don't go around advertising that they're cheaters - they deny it, lie about it, minimize it, & I've found they even point out other people's cheating behavior & look down on it. So to me if a guy said, I made this mistake in my past that I am really ashamed of & feel bad about it, & I'm telling you because it may be a deal-breaker & I also want to make sure we start off on the right, honest foot - I think I would admire his honesty & courage to change, & feel that I had a guy who really worked on himself & was in the right place. You're right, of course. Anyone CAN/COULD change. But you have to decide whether or not that's LIKELY to ever occur. It's a matter of personal risk assessment, when you get down to it. I COULD win the lottery. But I'm not going to bet my entire livelihood upon that. Someone who's been a serial cheater very well may learn a bitter lesson and change their behavior...but the ODDS of that happening aren't sufficient IN MY OPINION to warrant taking the risk of developing a relationship with one. As always...someone else's mileage may vary.
Quiet Storm Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Although possible, I think it is unlikely a serial cheater will permanently change. I think that most people can make positive changes in their lives. And these changes often last for months or even years. As long as their lives go smoothly. However, my experience has been that in times of conflict or stress, most people revert back to their default way of handling things. Usually behavioral therapy is needed to correct this "default" response, and many times the new coping skills people learn in therapy... go out the window in times of crisis. Many cheaters simply have a selfish character, and even traits of NPD, BPD, HPD or APD. They don't consider the feelings of others and their needs are always #1. These people become good at pretending to care for others, but it's very hard to change a person's core character. In addition, most serial cheaters have a strong sense of entitlement. They often feel that they deserve to have an OW, and truly feel that what BW doesn't know won't hurt her. They think having an affair is no big deal (and equate to any other fun activity), because they aren't considering the feelings of BW and OW. Women are here for his enjoyment, and they are interchangable. His thought process is "I will keep this one because she had my babies, this one because she is a good cook, this one because she gives good Bjs, this one because she doesn't talk too much, and this one because she's pretty and looks good on my arm." He doesn't judge a woman by her personality, thoughts and feelings... he will judge her by her looks and the services she provides him. It's all about him.
East7 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 The question is not as much about cheating itself. It is a question of character. Cheating is a consequence, not a cause. People who are serial cheaters have poor coping skills, are highly narcissistic and at the same time insecure. They need constant validation from others to feel beautiful, smart, talented etc. Serial cheaters don't find happiness if there isn't there someone to admire and make them feel good about themselves. Serial cheating is also a vicious circle. Because of the cheating, the BS looses admiration and esteem for the WS. The WS feels like a victim, which erodes his self esteem even more. In order to repair that, given that BS has forgiven once, he will be vulnerable to the first woman who will show him some interest, thus slipping again into another A. MW are different : A serial MW will eventually be tempted by another OM, but most of the time she will NEVER find the same feeling that she had with 1st OM. At this point MW will think that OM #1 was her real soul-mate and he was the one she EVER loved thus possibly relapsing and resuming the A with him. MW are more likely to be monogamous in the sense that they will flip-flop between H and OM (the same OM).
oldguy Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I think, as with most things, it comes down to; payoffs, benefits or regrets. If there is an excitement that out weighs the consequences for instance, then there is a high probability the cheating will continue. However if the cheater is overcome with feelings of guilt & remorse then chances are it will never happen again. Which is why I don't subscribe to letting one off easy.
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