Next steps?

[Kidd]

Moving from the infidelity forum to here. 5 months since Dday and I just don't think I can stay with my fWW. Classic year-long EA/PA with the boss. She's been remorseful and done what's required. No trickle truth or contact (as far as I know). I just can't handle trying to R anymore. She estimated 30 mid-day hotels over 13 months. My research comes out to more like double that. At this rate, I believe her legitimately underestimating. Christ. I just can't take the level of depravity, lying, and disrespect for me that it took to go that far. Been together 17 years, married 11. Normal life and normal marital problems. Fought like twice a year and fixed it by morning. We have two beautiful kids, 9 and 5. They're going to be devastated. She'll take the blame freely if we divorce but we're in Florida, a no-fault state. We go further into debt every month living together. I have no idea how we'd pay for a second residence. I have no where to go. What the hell do I do? I have a PhD in infidelity now (after being the example of a perfect marriage to everyone). I have no idea how to divorce.

[Owl]

Not every marriage will recover.

 

I'm curious tho, Kidd. What all have the two of you ACTIVELY DONE to try to work through all of this together?

 

Not calling you out...you know that.

 

And not faulting you for feeling the way you feel, either.

 

I'm just curious about what all you've tried to do to help rebuild the situation.

 

MC? IC? What have the two of you done to try to help you work through what you're feeling as a result of her actions?

[Kidd]

Hi Owl. Should have known you'd be the one to respond.

 

What have we done? Well, all the usual books read by both of us. MC pretty much weekly. She has an IC. I kinda gave up on IC. Thinking about going back but it just seems so much me talking to myself. With a $50 co-pay, I can do that cheaper on my own.

 

We're at NC finally. Took a long time for him to get the xfer and he recently finished her year-end review. That was to be the last step in the process.

 

I've become a virtual private investigator. Found a lot of hotel usernames and passwords. The volume and frequency is overwhelming but on the positive side, I've found nothing booked since Dday (and she doesn't know I have them). I just have such a hard time believing that it stopped immediately after discovery. I read too much TT on here to have faith that I'm the exception to the rule. The rule is that we always think we're the exception.

 

She's also found her religion again. It started with confession after all of this and then weekly attendance at church; I've even joined her and the kids for the last month or so (and I'm an Atheist). God and prayer some into conversations where that never would've happened before. It may be the most reassuring aspect of the R so far.

 

I switched my days off so we would have a day off together. I wish it wasn't Sundays but for the first time in many years, we are together on a day off (still, it's with kids). We've been productive with our days, making a lot of home improvements that were neglected during her A.

 

She has spent A LOT more time at home. She updates me when she's going to be on the way home, gets home on time, and it's early. This has been a real transition for her and she's been consistent. She won't stay late.

 

I've also managed to stop punishing her (which was really causing her to withdraw). Every talk just ended with her crying, saying how I was a better person and that she didn't know why I would stay with her. And I've never done the name-calling and that crap...just tried to ask questions (I want more details and she's understandably reluctant) and to be honest about my struggles. I couldn't keep up with the 'never discuss the affair again' attempt but it is greatly reduced and has helped her. It just leaves me dealing with it alone (which creates resentment). I just don't think she understands. I see some WW that do "get it" and make daily attempts to be grateful. For her, a day without drama is success and any drama is a set-back. I can go a few days and it just about kills me unless I get reassurance. She's relaxed her approach (fewer kind messages and so forth). With all the books she's read, I'd hope she would know what to do at this point and I feel like I've been a broken record.

 

I think I may have just been overwhelmed last night. I'm gaining faith that the affair is over. But I'm obsessed and pretty sure I have PTSD. I've been trying so hard lately and I just don't think she gets it when it comes to my needs now. She just acts normal unless I prompt her that I need to talk or need sex or whatever. I don't think I can drive this process and she won't get into the driver's seat. I finally stopped pushing her into it (you can't make people do anything) and thus, no one is driving. I've managed to go several weeks without yelling, swearing, or disrespectful judgments. It's been softening her ever so slowly.

 

Oddly enough, this morning she made love to me for the first time since Dday. We've had an adequate amount of sex (although not HB that I wish would return) but she knew this is what I've been looking for. I think she compartmentalized the sex (away from emotion) for so long (especially from me) that I've been dying to feel something real. Deep, real kisses, taking time, etc.. I got it today...just as I had spent the whole night contemplating divorce. And she had no idea. So today I am perched firmly back atop my fence which has become so uncomfortable. Wow. Confusing.

[Owl]

Talk with your doctor about PTSD.

 

Entirely possible.

 

I've suffered it twice in my life...once during my time in the military, and once as a result of my wife's EA. Luckily the second time I was able to identify it and treat it much more quickly.

[Kidd]

Thanks. Scheduled IC for tomorrow. I think it's my obsessing that is sabotaging R rather than her actions. If IC doesn't help, I'll see my MD. F you could expand though...what helped you? My impression is that treatment was mostly experiencing the images in a safe environment so as to become desensitized to them. Oddly, the mental movies really haven't been my problem. It's obsessing over who she really is...the lying and trust issues that keep my mind racing on this 5 months in. Since your W's A was EA, perhaps it was similar for you? What helped?

[Leslie5007]

Kidd, there's nothing to gain from knowing more and more about her affair. I think you are trying to understand something that doesn't have a ready rational explanation. The best advice is to let her go. Let it go.

[Lanelle]

Kidd, Dont give up on your marriage. She is doing everything right now to build back your trust. Give it time it will be better than it was before. Try not to keep going back to the past and move forward the two of you. Trust will come back. as long as she is showing you that you can trust her. constistency is the key.

[reboot]

Kidd, I feel for you I really do. Your story stirs up so many memories.

 

I hate to beat a dead horse, but all I can say is the same thing I've said to you all along. You are SO early on into this. It takes SO much longer than you've given it so far. I wish my wife had tried half as hard as yours seems to be trying. If you love her, don't give up yet. I can tell you're a strong man, stay strong.

[Owl]

Kidd...Reboot is totally right on the timeline, btw.

 

I didn't KNOW that we were going to recover until pretty much TWO YEARS after d-day.

 

You're still really early in all of this. And you're right at the point where you're going to feel despair. It'll happen again at the one year mark too.

 

This takes a lot of time and effort to work through.

 

It does sound like she's doing the right thing. If you want to give your marriage a chance to recover, you need to recognize you're on a marathon run, not a 100 meter dash to the finish.

 

Recovery is a PROCESS...not a goal.

[itllgetbetter]

Kidd: I have nothing novel to add to what's been said - that your wife appears to be trying to do the right things, so, for the sake of your M and the kids, perhaps you could try to go forward with your M. To that end, I'd suggest listening to some of the radio archived shows on www.marriagebuilders.com - I found them to be very helpful and you might too. Dr. Harley's also written a book "Surviving an Affair" which is a good, easy read.

[Kidd]

These are all very reassuring replies. Thank you. She is making enormous, fundamental changes and even with snooping, I've found nothing but old stuff. I've read enough to know that as far as Betrayed Spouses go, I'm one of very few that are fortunate enough to have hope of a real reconciliation. I feel bad even being in the S&D forum because I think a lot of these guys would kill to have the remorseful wife that I do. I sure just wish it had been a drunken ONS. No offense intended to those suffering through that but suffering through this long term, EA/PA marathon is not what I signed-up for. Yet, I know I have it in me. It just sucks. Thanks again. I've found patience for another day.

[reboot]

These are all very reassuring replies. Thank you. She is making enormous, fundamental changes and even with snooping, I've found nothing but old stuff. I've read enough to know that as far as Betrayed Spouses go, I'm one of very few that are fortunate enough to have hope of a real reconciliation. I feel bad even being in the S&D forum because I think a lot of these guys would kill to have the remorseful wife that I do. I sure just wish it had been a drunken ONS. No offense intended to those suffering through that but suffering through this long term, EA/PA marathon is not what I signed-up for. Yet, I know I have it in me. It just sucks. Thanks again. I've found patience for another day.

 

I honestly don't know how you managed to cope well enough to even attempt reconciliation. What you discovered is about as bad as it gets, but you've come so far in such a short period of time. Just know this, if you find you can't do it, if you can't keep on and retain your sanity, you don't have any reason to be ashamed. You gave it more than anyone could have expected.

[2sunny]

What have we done? Well, all the usual books read by both of us.

 

reading is gathering information - which is good. you must invoke CHANGE though, if you want things to get better. this change usually involves a process of feeling UNCOMFORTABLE... which is good. if you aren't uncomfortable - you probably aren't changing.

 

you need to DO the action part that provides room for growth, honesty and change!

MC pretty much weekly. She has an IC. I kinda gave up on IC. Thinking about going back but it just seems so much me talking to myself. With a $50 co-pay, I can do that cheaper on my own.

 

she cheated! did she explain WHY she cheated? did she explain what she has learned about HERSELF - so that she won't cheat again? if she hasn't - she has a lot of work to do. is she completely honest and transparent with you? you state some situations - but do you think you trust her at this point not to cheat again?

We're at NC finally. Took a long time for him to get the xfer and he recently finished her year-end review. That was to be the last step in the process.

 

she needs to quit that job! is the job (and money) more important than your M? you will find the answer to that when you tell her to quit.

 

I've become a virtual private investigator. Found a lot of hotel usernames and passwords. The volume and frequency is overwhelming but on the positive side, I've found nothing booked since Dday (and she doesn't know I have them). I just have such a hard time believing that it stopped immediately after discovery. I read too much TT on here to have faith that I'm the exception to the rule. The rule is that we always think we're the exception.

 

 

she should be willing to provide you with this info. and also provide you with peace of mind - if she's not giving you that - she may still be cheating... just hiding it better.

 

 

She's also found her religion again. It started with confession after all of this and then weekly attendance at church; I've even joined her and the kids for the last month or so (and I'm an Atheist). God and prayer some into conversations where that never would've happened before. It may be the most reassuring aspect of the R so far.

 

good - if it's working for her. she owes you the apology - and the actions that show she is doing everything she can to repair the damage she caused... and to show you kind and loving behavior.

 

 

I switched my days off so we would have a day off together. I wish it wasn't Sundays but for the first time in many years, we are together on a day off (still, it's with kids). We've been productive with our days, making a lot of home improvements that were neglected during her A.

 

She has spent A LOT more time at home. She updates me when she's going to be on the way home, gets home on time, and it's early. This has been a real transition for her and she's been consistent. She won't stay late.

 

this seems like good change!

 

 

I've also managed to stop punishing her (which was really causing her to withdraw). Every talk just ended with her crying, saying how I was a better person and that she didn't know why I would stay with her. And I've never done the name-calling and that crap...just tried to ask questions (I want more details and she's understandably reluctant) and to be honest about my struggles. I couldn't keep up with the 'never discuss the affair again' attempt but it is greatly reduced and has helped her. It just leaves me dealing with it alone (which creates resentment). I just don't think she understands. I see some WW that do "get it" and make daily attempts to be grateful. For her, a day without drama is success and any drama is a set-back. I can go a few days and it just about kills me unless I get reassurance. She's relaxed her approach (fewer kind messages and so forth). With all the books she's read, I'd hope she would know what to do at this point and I feel like I've been a broken record.

 

she should be willing to offer you any and all info you need to trust her again. no holding back.

 

she should be doing a TON of action and work to reconnect with you. if she's not - why not?

 

she should be communicating with you and putting in more effort to you and the M than she was energy on her A.

 

 

 

I think I may have just been overwhelmed last night. I'm gaining faith that the affair is over. But I'm obsessed and pretty sure I have PTSD. I've been trying so hard lately and I just don't think she gets it when it comes to my needs now. She just acts normal unless I prompt her that I need to talk or need sex or whatever. I don't think I can drive this process and she won't get into the driver's seat. I finally stopped pushing her into it (you can't make people do anything) and thus, no one is driving. I've managed to go several weeks without yelling, swearing, or disrespectful judgments. It's been softening her ever so slowly.

 

when the mind no longer wonders what she is or isn't doing - is when you will have progress... until then - she needs to spend more time and energy being honest with you - and repairing the harm she caused in the M.

 

Oddly enough, this morning she made love to me for the first time since Dday. We've had an adequate amount of sex (although not HB that I wish would return) but she knew this is what I've been looking for. I think she compartmentalized the sex (away from emotion) for so long (especially from me) that I've been dying to feel something real. Deep, real kisses, taking time, etc.. I got it today...just as I had spent the whole night contemplating divorce. And she had no idea. So today I am perched firmly back atop my fence which has become so uncomfortable. Wow. Confusing.

 

sex does not equate to love - and love does not equate to sex. people get confused about those two things. glad you're experiencing some loving sex though. a great connection mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually will never leave you wondering if it's all good and right. it just is! and it just is without question!

 

uncomfortable is good, it's the way progress goes (it's change) - but she needs to be showing lots of action that hands you back all of your peace of mind.

 

what has she been doing to change everything and restore the damage she caused? do you think she's being honest - probably not - since you have a need to keep checking up on her... has she been providing you with solid reassurance that YOU are the ONLY man she is spending time and energy paying attention to?

[Owl]

ROFLMBO!!!

 

At least you picked an honest username this time!!!!

[reboot]

ROFLMBO!!!

 

At least you picked an honest username this time!!!!

 

I was also impressed.

[Kidd]

Absolutely classic. And on my thread, no less. Not to worry, RepairMinded, I will continue to keep you entertained. This turned out to be a temporary setback after several rum and cokes. Today is the high point on the rollercoaster.

 

I will give you credit for the best out-loud laughter I've had in 5 months. Where's What_Next when you need him? Add his moral outrage to the mix and the gang's all here.

[Owl]

The Lernaean Hydra

 

A long time ago, Greek people believed that a long strip of stars was really an image of a gigantic serpent known as the Hydra. The people of Lerna were terrorized by this serpent--a horrifying beast with many snake-like heads, one of which was immortal. The heads of the Hydra could grow back even if they were cut off. Anyone approaching the Hydra could also be killed by its venomous breath.

 

Ahh, yes. But if I recall, the hero (Hercules) finally defeated and killed the hydra through wisdom and perserverence.

 

Sorry, but I don't believe that there's anyone here going to be vanquished by bad breath today.

[reboot]

 

Sorry, but I don't believe that there's anyone here going to be vanquished by bad breath today.

 

Could explain why his wife cheated though.

[Owl]

Ahh, yes. But if I recall, the hero (Hercules) finally defeated and killed the hydra through wisdom and perserverence.

 

Sorry, but I don't believe that there's anyone here going to be vanquished by bad breath today.

 

I didn't realize that my post was going to be so...prophetic!

 

Another head gone for now.

 

Kidd...how you holding up there compadre?

[sillysmart]

Hey Kidd,

I responded to you a while back and I just wanted to add a few words of encouragement to you.

First, infidelity is like a death! Google Kubler Ross and look on Wikepedia. I know this is cliche but really you are in a process of mourning a death. Your relationship with your wife is like a separate entity that was alive and now it is dead. The innocence, idealism, trust and security are all at at a loss.

 

Infidelity is almost beyond forgiveness. My point is that you have to think of your marriage as two separate beings. The one before now dead and the one now alive, new and raw. She made love to you great signs of not something coming back but somnething new! I am sure you have lost a dear loved one. I lost my mother at 25 am now 50 and at times it is still shocking!

 

Forgiveness I believe is related to your signs of PTSD. Forgiveness is both a choice and a process. Unfortunately it is not forgetting. Hypervigilence is a symptoms of PTSD. Your knowing the truth was important for a period of time. It gave you your power back. All the lying and deception distorted reality made you think you were crazay and now finding the truth brought sanity back and that felt great! But I fear you now are hypervigilent which as a symptom of PTSD can take over your life and distort your reality as well. It is like having glasses on which make you look at the world through the fear of being duped again your main goal becomes to prevent that. In the meantime you cannot see the truth going on right now today. You are with your wife and she made love to you this morning and you are O.K. You can choose forgiveing thoughts daily and focus on facts of her remorse and through that daily choice YOU will experience the process of forgiveness and acceptace as you go through the process of grief and loss and at the same time the experience of building something new.

 

Marriage is a commitment. It is a risk. If you divorce her you will still grieve the loss of the marriage and the small new hope you have now. Your ego will feel good and you will have justice and the knowledge that SHE can't do that to you again and she paid for what she did. But the kick in the ass is you may not trust any other woman again and the hypervigilence will continue anyway. That is the kicker! Grief and loss work eventually leads to acceptance of the loss. LIFE will go on despite the loss. The truth is she is just a woman who made a very grave, grave mistake. You are just a man who's wife screwed around on him? We are all vulnerable especially these days! Any relationship is a risk? You know the risk with her but to some extent you also have children with her. Some marry thinking well no big deal I can divorce or live with someone? No risk? Right! I think people are foolish not realizing attachments happen at such a deep level and !or thank God fortunately that is how life works! You want to avoid that? Good luck! To love even a child is a risk of hurt. Death or illness can always come upon suddenly.

 

Anyway, the commitment piece is important. Does she know you are thinking of getting out? This could be formed as a form of infidelity? NO? So if you sit on the sidelines waiting to decide if you want in or out. How is it going? How am I feeling? Should I take the risk to get in or out? This is all not being in! This is a decision made on a daily basis minute by minute basis? If you stay in limbo this will kill your marriage in of itself. YOu have to get in it and choose it despite the risk every day. You have to choose! Not choosing is choosing! The feelings of trust newness and acceptance will come as you choose. You think well I will get out and the thoughts and hypervigilence will cease? Maybe but maybe not? You will still mourn the loss of your marriage. YOu loved you were betrayed this sucks and thats that. But with or without her you choose to go on living and create new life. Both the mourning and creation happen at the same time.

 

I experienced infidelity and it has been over two years. I am a Christian so I believe Christ can make all things new (Your marriage/Renew your vows?) Mercy triumphs over Justice (Making your heart a heart and not bitter) and better to love and lose then to not love at all just because you don't want to be hurt. Thinking of this as a daily choice of forgiveness, creating something new and realizing the grief and loss aspects helped me tremendously. I hope this will be helpful to you.

I hope I see you are out of the separation and divorcre forum, infidelity forumand perhaps on the relaitonship forum. All the best Sillysmart

[drifter777]

Hi Kidd - I'm sorry you continue to ride the emotional roller-coaster but it's just the way it is for most of us. Try to remember that it's typical and you owe it to yourself to feel and express the wide range of emotions that accompany trying to reconcile with your WW.

 

I've began to respond to your OP a number of times but those wide swings in your feelings have caused me to hesitate. After trying to access where you are - at least from my perspective - I have some feedback for you.

 

First, your OP showed gave me another peek at the emotions you continue to suppress. You are clearly uncomfortable with your anger and you continue to avoid confrontation. I am the same way so I recognize the pattern - it takes one to know one. I think this is a major blocking factor in your attempt to reconcile because you really have boxed yourself in to a corner; at least emotionally. You are probably not emotionally able to unload on your wife and your distaste for confrontation makes it difficult for you to stick to your guns.

 

You continue to make excuses for her behavior since the affair while finding out how many more lies she told you regarding the frequency she met the OM for sex. As I've pointed out before, you are not objective in your investigation, nor do you have investigative experience. This means the chances that you have truly gotten to the bottom of your wife's behavior is very, very slim.

 

You also have to consider that her willingness to do "all the right things" is first and foremost for her benefit. This is not a knock on your wife, it is simply human nature. It also appears to be female nature to refuse to reveal details of their sex life unless it is in their best interest, and even then they will withhold raunchy details. That said, the questions you need to find answers to; is she working hard to demonstrate her remorse for cheating simply to ease her conscience? Is her dedication to reconciliation to fix your marriage in her best interest financially. Your going to say that she has a good job, but what about the entire breadth of your finances or the fact that if she left her family because of an affair with a co-worker it could adversely effect her career? I would bet that these things run through your mind (along with the porn movies of her & OM) and cause your stomach to churn and contribute to sleepless nights.

 

I have advise you to seek IC but you say this hasn't worked well for you. Maybe it's because you are not working on things that really matter to you because it is so uncomfortable to face them head on. Think about my assertion that you fear confrontation so much that you are willing to accept just about anything to avoid it. If I am right, that is a great subject to discuss with your IC.

 

My last bit of advice is that you need to open up your options so you don't feel so trapped. Since your wife will never tell you the truth the only way you may be able to get to the bottom of her affair is to hire a PI to review the evidence you have and dig up the rest of the story. This is an option. I'm not clear on whether the work transfer you refer to is that one of them transferred to another department or the OM transferred to another state. If they are still in reasonable proximity to one another, you simply cannot know how much, if any, contact is going on and the nature of it. If she is continuing to see him on the sly it certainly wouldn't be the first time a WW continued to see OM while playing the reconciliation game with her husband. A PI could help verify or eliminate that possibility. You also need to consider - really consider - the option of a separation. Assuming the lies and contact have truly ended, this may be the best way to find out if you want to go on living with someone who lied to you, betrayed you, disrespected you, and had regular sex with another man. It can also help you decide whether the coming years of work to actually reconcile are worth it. After a month or so if you still have real doubts about going back to begin the reconciliation process, don't do it. End the marriage and find happiness with someone else.

 

When making this decision you must have options and weigh them all carefully. If you face this head-on and have your own best interests at heart I'm confident you will make the decision that's best for you in the long run.

[joseph17]

Looks like to me that she is changing on behalf of you and your marriage. It is weird how with your significant other that just when you are about to throw in the towel they pick up on it and you get what you have been looking for. You just have to go through your healing process and if you love her ehich I am sure you do then stick it out. Her finding religion again and working to make things better only shows how much she wants you to work out. We al go through our trial and errors its how we handle them that reflects what will happen. You are doing a great job and getting to trust her again is going to take some time and her proving it to you which she is.Just hang in there and It looks like everything will be alright.

[Kidd]

Wow am I grateful for these posts. Thank you Sillysmart, Drifter and Joseph (and of course, Owl) for each of you in your own wisdom. I am an atheist and I am blessed.

 

Today I discovered and confronted my W for broken NC with the OM. It was an undisclosed 2-minute phone conversation about old business. My W was remorseful (to the exact script) but it's a clear breach of one of our big three. I asked her for her rings (which she ignored as she apologized) and I left. I'm sure my next rum and coke will help me find a solution.

 

Wish me luck, my friends. One thing I know is that I am no longer broken. I am now a strong man who will bide his time to make his decisions. Curious game. The only way to win is not to play.

[2sunny]

The way to win is to never settle. Her actions show she is willing to disrespect and disregard your feelings... Then NOT tell you her truth. Since she's not being honest - how can you trust? Without trust there is no foundation. Her actions don't match her words. Never settle!

[drifter777]

Kidd: This news about the breach in NC and her withholding it from you is very disturbing to a fellow BS. Her excuse about "wanting a peaceful night" is so lame it's laughable if it wasn't so sick. It's like she thinks not get caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth. You suffered and kept on working toward reconciliation because you believed she was doing everything right to restore your trust, and now this? It has to be devastating for you.

 

I'm not you and can't possibly know the entirety of what's going on with you, your wife, and the OM. However, from what I do know if I put myself in your situation I would be furious over this latest incident. It would cause me to disregard her "remorse" and good behavior since d-day as I would now believe that it has all been a sham; a cover-up for her continued contact with OM. She is probably smart enough to hide her tracks so you should figure that uncovering one violation of NC probably means there are many, many more. I say this because she knows you are watching her like only a BS can and, being a smart lady, has become an expert at fooling you.

 

I hope all of this is wrong and it really was a one-time slip - but it's just not likely. Please continue to work on your own personal recovery from this betrayal and make your reconciliation secondary to that. I know you believe you have recovered sufficiently to make good decisions, but the fact is that you probably haven't. You're in good company as I don't know of a single story of infidelity where the BS got past the bitterness and truly began to recover in less than a year or so. Most often it take a number of years to restore the trust and get past this ultimate in betrayal.

 

I need to add one thing; mixing anger and depression with alcohol is dangerous. It's possible to make extremely poor, rash decisions when you've been drinking so just keep that in mind. I don't mean to preach here, just a warning you probably already know.