Thoughts on marriage

[zig]

I think that in todays culture women have a larger benefit to being married then men do.

 

My g/f and I have talked about marriage (not for us) just marriage in general. We discussed the roles that both expect. I've always wanted to be married but when I really think about it, I don't think I'd have a fair shake.

 

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

[AHardDaysNight]

I think marriage still has it's benefits. It's still a way to show that you love each other, forever.

 

I think that's the reason why so many gay people want to get married. It's still a very popular idea.

[musemaj11]

I think that in todays culture women have a larger benefit to being married then men do.

 

My g/f and I have talked about marriage (not for us) just marriage in general. We discussed the roles that both expect. I've always wanted to be married but when I really think about it, I don't think I'd have a fair shake.

 

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

You are one smart young grasshopper.

 

Marriage is for suckers.

 

Also dont forget that as a man you are going to get more successful with age in your career while a woman will only get older and get less and less attractive. In other words, a marriage is a contractual business in which the man offers growing investment while the woman offers declining investment.

 

I dont advise any man to get married. But if you really really have to marry, then marry older when you are already well-off financially that you can attract a much more attractive and younger woman (with a prenup of course) or marry early but marry someone of equal or higher financial wealth so not only you will benefit from her financially, you will also be safe from being taken to the cleaners upon divorce.

[AHardDaysNight]

^ That is only going by if they don't plan on having children.

 

A stable marriage provides a stable environment for kids to grow up in. Believe me, I didn't have a stable environment growing up, and I would have done anything to have had both a mother and a father who provided for me and loved me.

 

If you don't plan on having kids, however, disregard this advice. It sounds like you and the OP don't plan on procreating, therefore my advice is useless.

[musemaj11]

^ That is only going by if they don't plan on having children.

Whats wrong with my advice? On the contrary, study shows that a couple of equal financial and educational status have a lot more lasting marriage than other couples.

[Queen Zenobia]

I think that in todays culture women have a larger benefit to being married then men do.

 

My g/f and I have talked about marriage (not for us) just marriage in general. We discussed the roles that both expect. I've always wanted to be married but when I really think about it, I don't think I'd have a fair shake.

 

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

 

My overriding question here is what do you want out of marriage? You provided a list of things a woman wants (your current girlfriend wants?) from marriage but didn't really say what you wanted. Could it be that you and your girlfriend are just not on the same page?

[zig]

My overriding question here is what do you want out of marriage? You provided a list of things a woman wants (your current girlfriend wants?) from marriage but didn't really say what you wanted. Could it be that you and your girlfriend are just not on the same page?

 

The funny thing is; I want the same things. I would feel very successful to provide for a household.

 

Here is the rub though. I expect an equal effort from my future spouse. If she didn't turn out to be a prudent and hardworking housewife I'd feel taken advantage of.

 

Here is rub #2. My g/f is very apprehensive about going through a pregnancy and wants to adopt. Nothing wrong with that but if things didn't work out I'd feel double taken advantage of. For instance, my g/f babysits a lot and many times she comes home all stressed out and tired. I wonder what it would be like when she takes care of a kid full-time. When I come home after a hard day of work is she going to hand me the kid and say "you take him now, I just watched him all day and I'm tired". Like working 60 hours a week at the office isn't stressful and tiring?

 

I'm not too keen on the idea of going through the responsibility of providing for a family and then having to pick up the slack on the wife's end.

[musemaj11]

The funny thing is; I want the same things. I would feel very successful to provide for a household.

 

Here is the rub though. I expect an equal effort from my future spouse. If she didn't turn out to be a prudent and hardworking housewife I'd feel taken advantage of.

 

Here is rub #2. My g/f is very apprehensive about going through a pregnancy and wants to adopt. Nothing wrong with that but if things didn't work out I'd feel double taken advantage of. For instance, my g/f babysits a lot and many times she comes home all stressed out and tired. I wonder what it would be like when she takes care of a kid full-time. When I come home after a hard day of work is she going to hand me the kid and say "you take him now, I just watched him all day and I'm tired". Like working 60 hours a week at the office isn't stressful and tiring?

 

I'm not too keen on the idea of going through the responsibility of providing for a family and then having to pick up the slack on the wife's end.

Marry a foreign Asian woman.

[Eeyore79]

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

I don't think 1- is ok. She should work until she gives birth, then maybe take time off to recover and take care of the baby, but after that she should really go back to work - at least part time, and certainly by the time baby goes to kindergarten. I don't think it's acceptable to expect to stay at home and be taken care of for years on end. She sounds lazy imo.

 

3- and 4- are fine if she's prepared to earn money to pay for her share of travel and house; she can't expect you to pay for it all. 5- is unacceptable; she needs to pay at least some of the expenses herself. What century does she think we're living in - does she really expect to raise a family, buy a house and travel, all on one salary?! She seems to be living in fantasy land... unless you earn an extremely high salary she'll either need to contribute financially or do without nice things to make ends meet.

[denise_xo]

I think that in todays culture women have a larger benefit to being married then men do.

 

My g/f and I have talked about marriage (not for us) just marriage in general. We discussed the roles that both expect. I've always wanted to be married but when I really think about it, I don't think I'd have a fair shake.

 

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

 

The women I hang out with would never dream of expecting 1 and 5. Maybe you're just hanging out in the wrong crowd. This is the point of departure where I live:

 

I expect an equal effort from my future spouse

 

and then people organise themselves differently in terms of what they want 'equal effort' to mean. Personally I wouldn't marry if that premise wasn't clearly in place.

[Scottdmw]

A woman like this could be very good, depending on what you want, or not so good.

 

In my case, I'm looking for a woman that wants these things, mainly because I do want to have children and I think children do better when they're raised by their parents rather than daycare. Fortunately I make a good income and can afford to support a woman and children. That's question number one for you.

 

For a man looking for this situation, it becomes extremely important to be confident that your wife's character is good. As you point out, you have to be sure that she is going to pull her share of the weight. If she is staying home while you work, she would certainly be expected to do childcare and housework all day while you're at work and then when you get home the two of you are still on an equal footing for the rest of the evening.

 

So, it depends what you want and whether you think this woman is going to be good for that.

[Sanman]

I don't think 1- is ok. She should work until she gives birth, then maybe take time off to recover and take care of the baby, but after that she should really go back to work - at least part time, and certainly by the time baby goes to kindergarten. I don't think it's acceptable to expect to stay at home and be taken care of for years on end. She sounds lazy imo.

 

3- and 4- are fine if she's prepared to earn money to pay for her share of travel and house; she can't expect you to pay for it all. 5- is unacceptable; she needs to pay at least some of the expenses herself. What century does she think we're living in - does she really expect to raise a family, buy a house and travel, all on one salary?! She seems to be living in fantasy land... unless you earn an extremely high salary she'll either need to contribute financially or do without nice things to make ends meet.

 

 

This is spot on. My current gf and I are both on track to six figure careers in our respective fields. Even if she works part-time, we should be comfortable without me killing myself at work. However, she likes to work and can work full-time from home. She is also a bargain hunter and a spendthrift like me, we don't need to spend a lot to have fun. I also agree with musemaj about choosing a gf with a good career. In today's world a family needs a lot of money and you are also choosing a financial partner. That list may be nice for someone, but is unacceptable to me. I am not traditional and will be happy to split all tasks, including earning money, down the middle. Just because that is her wish list does not mean it has to be reality. A good woman with compromise to it work for both of you.

[EasyHeart]

Marriage has always benefitted women more than men. I remember when I was a teen and the first big wave of divorces started happening, it was supposedly a national crisis that women are worse off after getting divorced. I remember thinking, "Ummm, doesn't that mean they were making out like bandits by getting married?"

 

The only purpose of marriage is to raise children. All the romantic baloney about wanting to be together forever and all the governmental benefits for being married is just crap created to convince men to overcome their natural (and rational) desire to avoid marriage.

 

And for all you youngsters who think your educated, six figure-earning wives will want to keep working after you have kids: forget it. IME, about 80% of educated career women suddenly discover after their second child that they really want to be stay-at-home moms. Then they will expect you to make as much money as the two of you did before she decided to stay home. You'll have to take a higher-paying job you don't like and work even more hours than you did before, and in exchange for that, she will complain that you are never home, never take care of the kids and never help her around the house.

[make me believe]

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

That is what your girlfriend wants from marriage. Your girlfriend doesn't speak for all women. Be glad that you found this out before you got engaged or married to her. I think it says a lot about her that she would apparently be ok with her husband working his butt off all of the time just so she can sit at home, travel, and not have to pay for anything herself.

[Sanman]

Marriage has always benefitted women more than men. I remember when I was a teen and the first big wave of divorces started happening, it was supposedly a national crisis that women are worse off after getting divorced. I remember thinking, "Ummm, doesn't that mean they were making out like bandits by getting married?"

 

The only purpose of marriage is to raise children. All the romantic baloney about wanting to be together forever and all the governmental benefits for being married is just crap created to convince men to overcome their natural (and rational) desire to avoid marriage.

 

And for all you youngsters who think your educated, six figure-earning wives will want to keep working after you have kids: forget it. IME, about 80% of educated career women suddenly discover after their second child that they really want to be stay-at-home moms. Then they will expect you to make as much money as the two of you did before she decided to stay home. You'll have to take a higher-paying job you don't like and work even more hours than you did before, and in exchange for that, she will complain that you are never home, never take care of the kids and never help her around the house.

 

And yet, my mother worked, my aunts worked, my cousins work, and a number of family friends as well. Sure there are women who want to quit working altogether, but there are those who do not.

[Queen Zenobia]

Marriage has always benefitted women more than men. I remember when I was a teen and the first big wave of divorces started happening, it was supposedly a national crisis that women are worse off after getting divorced. I remember thinking, "Ummm, doesn't that mean they were making out like bandits by getting married?"

 

The only purpose of marriage is to raise children. All the romantic baloney about wanting to be together forever and all the governmental benefits for being married is just crap created to convince men to overcome their natural (and rational) desire to avoid marriage.

 

And for all you youngsters who think your educated, six figure-earning wives will want to keep working after you have kids: forget it. IME, about 80% of educated career women suddenly discover after their second child that they really want to be stay-at-home moms. Then they will expect you to make as much money as the two of you did before she decided to stay home. You'll have to take a higher-paying job you don't like and work even more hours than you did before, and in exchange for that, she will complain that you are never home, never take care of the kids and never help her around the house.

 

That's odd. My mother kept working after having me. She's one of those "educated career women". I also plan to keep working after having kids. Where does the 80% number come from? Was there a study done or a survey or something?

[wolfess]

Not all relationships are the same and not all marriages are the same for example:

 

In a marriage I would like:

 

No kids or one adopted child

I'm not staying home alone with the child, either we both do it or we don't do it, I'm more than happy to not care for another human

I hate cooking, if I'm doing it, you're helping, if your doing it I'll help

We each wash our dishes and put them in the dishwasher, we can take turns emptying it, or do it together

Laundry same as above

Cleaning will be done as a team, preferably with music

we both need to work until we can both not work, work shouldn't consume either of our time there's more to life than money and greed

house + land (I'll take care of most of the livestock, but I want help)

 

As it stands my boyfriend is more than content with my list, his list would look very similar to my list. He'd marry me tomorrow if it were a good idea, but we're young, we need our health insurance so it'll wait.

 

My list is not your list, your list is not my list. My list is what makes me happy, your list is what makes you happy. You should marry someone who's list is your list or very close to it.

[Ruby Slippers]

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

I think the biggest benefit to the man in this situation is a stable, loving family, relationship, and home environment. But it would take a very special woman to hold up her end of the deal.

 

If I were a man marrying a woman who wanted the above, this is what I would consider a fair trade:

 

1. She takes care of all the housework, upkeep, cooking, laundry, errands, car maintenance errands, gardening, yard work, and all the business of running the home and family.

2. She is an excellent mother who does her part to create and maintain a healthy, loving family.

3. She handles all travel arrangements, finds excellent deals, handles the logistics of it, manages child care whether the kids stay at home or go with.

4. She maintains the house beautifully and is an excellent host.

5. She provides loving support and great sex when I want it.

6. She takes all the above just as seriously as I take my bread-winning job, and doesn't slack off on any of it.

 

And I would absolutely have a clear legal agreement up front about how we would manage a divorce financially and with respect to custody, and what the grounds for it would be (adultery, etc.).

[ThsAmericanLife]

Any legitimate commitment assumes some risk.

 

If you aren't willing to assume the risks, then don't commit. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[zig]

In a marriage I would like:

No kids or one adopted child

 

My g/f says the same thing. I have a hard time relating to her. Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?

[Pierre]

Not all relationships are the same and not all marriages are the same for example:

 

In a marriage I would like:

 

No kids or one adopted child

I'm not staying home alone with the child, either we both do it or we don't do it, I'm more than happy to not care for another human

I hate cooking, if I'm doing it, you're helping, if your doing it I'll help

We each wash our dishes and put them in the dishwasher, we can take turns emptying it, or do it together

Laundry same as above

Cleaning will be done as a team, preferably with music

we both need to work until we can both not work, work shouldn't consume either of our time there's more to life than money and greed

house + land (I'll take care of most of the livestock, but I want help)

 

As it stands my boyfriend is more than content with my list, his list would look very similar to my list. He'd marry me tomorrow if it were a good idea, but we're young, we need our health insurance so it'll wait.

 

My list is not your list, your list is not my list. My list is what makes me happy, your list is what makes you happy. You should marry someone who's list is your list or very close to it.

 

This will not work unless you clone yourself and marry your own clone.

 

Identical chores with keeping score will not work. At some point there will be resentment.

 

Not wanting kids may not be a plus unless you find a man that does not want to procreate. Are you worried about pregnancy and stretch marks?

[wolfess]

This will not work unless you clone yourself and marry your own clone.

 

Identical chores with keeping score will not work. At some point there will be resentment.

 

Not wanting kids may not be a plus unless you find a man that does not want to procreate. Are you worried about pregnancy and stretch marks?

 

It already has worked my bf and I worked out division of labor perfectly (as close to at as possible it can never be entirely equal but no one's keeping score), playing on each other's skills and weaknesses ex. He enjoys and is better at cooking, I stare at the food and angrily yell at it for not being done...I know about horses, raising livestock and caring for them, him, not so much... and I don't like kids, I wouldn't put myself through the hell of pregnancy for something I probably would resent and um, 7 BILLION people already fighting for dwindling resources I'd rather take care of the people we already have before I would add more. I mean, what's so special about my genes that isn't already present in the population? I'm not selfish enough to want kids and I'm too selfish to give up my body for another creature. It's a dual edged sword. And my wonderful loving boyfriend is 100% on the same page, I made it explicitly clear when we first started dating (3 years ago) that I detested children (I've gotten better since them, I can tolerate SOME). Pregnancy=awful I would not psychologically be able to handle it without being put into a medical coma, gas movement bothers me, and I'm territorial, my body, not sharing thank you, stretch marks I couldn't care less. I could write a book on reasons I will not go through pregnancy it would entail the entire detailed physical process and risks, risks which to me aren't worth it. I have been this way all my life since I can remember (3 years old) and it's not going to change, I don't expect people to understand. I expect quite the opposite, and I don't give a flying %*!$

 

If you want me to go into further (and more rational) detail of why I do not want kids, I can and gladly will, but it will take a while, like a long post with research articles attached. Mainly the physical processes and disruptions, rearrangement of internal structures and possible life-long injuries resulting from pregnancy and labor, some of which are common, but often not talked about.

 

I feel fortunate that I do have my boyfriend as he completely understands me and how I feel, you are right in that there are many men who simply don't. Which is fine, I'm not dating them. I'd rather be a crazy hermit then with someone who wanted kids. It's not a common thought, or at least it's not commonly expressed. There's so much social pressure to breed, many just submit before really grasping what raising human beings is like. They aren't pets or toys, babies=people. I have friends who don't quite grasp that, and it saddens me.

Edited September 27, 2011 by wolfess

[Pierre]

It already has worked my bf and I worked out division of labor perfectly, playing on each other's skills and weaknesses ex. He enjoys and is better at cooking, I stare at the food and angrily yell at it for not being done...I know about horses, raising livestock and caring for them, him, not so much... and I don't like kids, I wouldn't put myself through the hell of pregnancy for something I probably would resent and um, 7 BILLION people already fighting for dwindling resources I'd rather take care of the people we already have before I would add more. I mean, what's so special about my genes that isn't already present in the population? I'm not selfish enough to want kids and I'm too selfish to give up my body for another creature. It's a dual edged sword. And my wonderful loving boyfriend is 100% on the same page, I made it explicitly clear when we first started dating (3 years ago) that I detested children (I've gotten better since them, I can tolerate SOME). Pregnancy=awful I would not psychologically be able to handle it without being put into a medical coma, gas movement bothers me, and I'm territorial, my body, not sharing thank you, stretch marks I couldn't care less. I could write a book on reasons I will not go through pregnancy it would entail the entire detailed physical process and risks, risks which to me aren't worth it. I have been this way all my life since I can remember (3 years old) and it's not going to change, I don't expect people to understand. I expect quite the opposite, and I don't give a flying %*!$

 

If you want me to go into further (and more rational) detail of why I do not want kids, I can and gladly will, but it will take a while, like a long post with research articles attached...

 

Nothing wrong with your views, including the part where you angrily yell at your BF for not cooking as you wish. As long as BF is with your program it is OK.

 

From the evolution point of view one of the drives to have sex is to leave our genes behind. That is why men subconsciously favor women with attributes that scream "I am fertile".

 

Why do you think your genes are not worthy? What would happen if most folks had your ideas on procreation?

 

BTW, being pregnant is natural?

[Woggle]

Marriage is what a couple makes it. It is a very flexible institution.

[c0nfuzd]

I think that in todays culture women have a larger benefit to being married then men do.

 

My g/f and I have talked about marriage (not for us) just marriage in general. We discussed the roles that both expect. I've always wanted to be married but when I really think about it, I don't think I'd have a fair shake.

 

Said woman wants:

1- to stay at home

2- have kids and possibly adopt

3- travel

4- have a house

5- all other expenses taken care of

 

Where does that leave me? Pretty much working overtime and giving up the things I want because every penny will have to go to making ends meet and supporting other people.

 

So maybe the payback will be her warm love. That's great but I can get that with a g/f. I'm traditional so I'd want the house clean, food cooked and dishes done but I can do that for myself now. What am I missing? Am I being bitter towards women and marriage or something?

 

you can't generalize....that is just this woman you're with that thinks like that

 

I think in today's age, both should work just like both should take care of the kids, expenses, and the house...it's a 50/50 deal

 

anything less and I'm out...