interesting article about "second wives" in china

[HowYouDoing]

i am in CHina right now on business, just left Shanghai, now in HKG.

 

I can tell you capitlism is strong here, the young women are available for a price and there is no shortage to choose from.

 

we went to a bar where the whores were 10 to 1 for each man. my colleagues all took one home, but i wouldnt.

 

i guess i was the one in a million who wouldnt cheat even though it was cheap, easy and no way to get caught.

[nyrias2]

Well, it's a degree of shunning, so to speak, from your perspective, I guess. But, it's like this. Years ago, the area I live has major prostitution problem for years. People just looked the other way as the problem was too broad and deep for police to do anything about it. After all, it's not like they were hurting anyone. That does not mean prostitution is legal in California like Nevada, for example. It was something to shun but people just did not bother to fix it so much. At some point, however, the police set a goal to clean up the street and they put a major major effort to get rid of all the street girls from the area. So, now the problem is minimal.

 

Just because at one point there were these girls walking all over the street and police did not act on them does not mean we did not "shun" the prostitution. People just lived with it, although they did not like it. The infidelity issue in China now is pretty much the same thing. People there do seem to see it as a problem, but the problem is so wide spread and like I said the socio-economic pressure is there to encourage such behavior that people just look the other way for now. That does not mean they think infidelity is OK by any means. They just don't have the manpower or the system to root out the problem, that's all. Pretty much same as the prostitution problem we had years ago when the police just did not know how to tackle the problem until they finally managed to secure enough budget and manpower to handle it effectively.

 

So, you can say the state such as Nevada does not "shun" the prostitution as they embrace it as a legal activity, but my state, California, always shunned such activity even though sometimes they were just ineffective dealing with it.

 

Well, looking the other way MAY be construed as shunning but this is CLEARLY NOT THE CASE.

 

I would say bringing mistresses to business meeting is FLAUNTING infidelity. If they are shunned, they can easily NOT bring the girls. In fact, didn't you read in the article that some of these men are actively SHOWING OFF the girls.

 

This is more than a case of a problem getting out of hand. At least those chinese businessmen do not think it is a problem. There is a big difference between not bother to hide, and actively flaunting. Don't u think?

[nyrias2]

I don't get how it's different.

 

The wives are forced to accept the situation, without any power or choice in the matter.

 

I don't see how the social view is actually any different.

 

Playah's have been "socially accepted" in the U.S. too.

 

Not really any different from what I see.

 

Dont the article points out many differences? You need to read more carefully.

 

1) Men here HIDE their affairs. Men over there openly FLAUNT them.

 

2) Wives do not divorce their husband, or much less likely to do so, because of affairs. In fact, their tolerance is a lot higher.

 

3) MC, NC, exposure, and a host of other popular practices, here in the US, are not practiced.

 

4) A lot of Er nai have the attitude that money is king, and love is bad .. which is a very different attitudes towards R, compared to almost 100% girls in the US.

 

5) The congregation of Er nai into Er nai village is certainly a unique social phenomenon (even if not a social attitude .. although banding together certainly create social forces). I can't think of an analogous here for er nai village.

[nyrias2]

i am in CHina right now on business, just left Shanghai, now in HKG.

 

I can tell you capitlism is strong here, the young women are available for a price and there is no shortage to choose from.

 

we went to a bar where the whores were 10 to 1 for each man. my colleagues all took one home, but i wouldnt.

 

i guess i was the one in a million who wouldnt cheat even though it was cheap, easy and no way to get caught.

 

Really? Worry about STD? Worry about guilt?

 

See this post also points out the difference attitude between western men and the locals. They won't think twice because they don't think is wrong .. or that wrong .. kind of like smoking or drinking.

[sadcalifornian]

I feel running in circles here.

[HowYouDoing]

Really? Worry about STD? Worry about guilt?

 

See this post also points out the difference attitude between western men and the locals. They won't think twice because they don't think is wrong .. or that wrong .. kind of like smoking or drinking.

 

wait, what?

 

where did i say it wasnt wrong? of course its wrong, for many reasons, especially and most importantly the vows I took promising not to sleep around.

 

worried about STD's, yes.

would I feel guily? of course

i came home and made sweet love to my wife with a clean conscience, not sure how those who cheat are able to live that life myself.

 

not sure why you are calling me out, i am the one who was in a country where women throw themselves at you and I had zero trouble resisting.

 

i am not asking for a parade actually, i was simply commenting on the story from the perspective of someone who has seen first hand the society in discussion.

[nyrias2]

wait, what?

 

where did i say it wasnt wrong? of course its wrong, for many reasons, especially and most importantly the vows I took promising not to sleep around.

 

worried about STD's, yes.

would I feel guily? of course

i came home and made sweet love to my wife with a clean conscience, not sure how those who cheat are able to live that life myself.

 

not sure why you are calling me out, i am the one who was in a country where women throw themselves at you and I had zero trouble resisting.

 

i am not asking for a parade actually, i was simply commenting on the story from the perspective of someone who has seen first hand the society in discussion.

 

Did you READ what I wrote? I was commenting on how DIFFERENT you are compared to the local men who have no issues with cheating.

[sadcalifornian]

Really? Worry about STD? Worry about guilt?

 

See this post also points out the difference attitude between western men and the locals. They won't think twice because they don't think is wrong .. or that wrong .. kind of like smoking or drinking.

 

 

This, I have to disagree strongly. Like I said, I visit China quite often for biz; sometimes the stay lasts more than a month. I see all kinds of people from all over the world come to China for various biz. You know what? They are mostly same. I can't even say the locals there are any worse than what you call "Westerners" at all.

 

My honest, but politically incorrect, assessment is that men seem to behave rather similarily regardless of their original culture in dealing with prostitution and mistresses. Their male behaviors of primal instinct raise its head once they find themselves in an environment where such is tolerated or, should I say, available.

 

Once I had to stand in front of elevator for 10 minutes because each time elevator door opened, I see all these "non-local men" holding a prostitute or two, and I decided to wait for the next one and the next on, etc. With male, I think the environment plays a key role in helping them steer clear of those vices. But, once the environment allows it, they will adapt very fast unfortunately.

Edited October 3, 2011 by sadcalifornian

[nyrias2]

This, I have to disagree strongly. Like I said, I visit China quite often for biz; sometimes the stay lasts more than a month. I see all kinds of people from all over the world come to China for various biz. You know what? They are mostly same. I can't even say the locals there are any worse than what you call "Westerners" at all.

 

My honest, but politically incorrect, assessment is that men seem to behave rather similarily regardless of their original culture in dealing with prostitution and mistresses. Their male behaviors of primal instinct raise its head once they find themselves in an environment where such is tolerated or, should I say, available.

 

Once I had to stand in front of elevator for 10 minutes because each time elevator door opened, I see all these "non-local men" holding a prostitute or two, and I decided to wait for the next one and the next on, etc. With male, I think the environment plays a key role in helping them steer clear of those vices. But, once the environment allows it, they will adapt very fast unfortunately.

 

I see. I suppose i stand corrected.

 

I guess most men are essentially cheaters but only suppressed here in the US because it is not accepted. No wonder there are statistics showing 70+ will cheat if they never get caught.

 

I guess once they go to China, there is no reason not to suppress their desire anymore.

[sadcalifornian]

I see. I suppose i stand corrected.

 

I guess most men are essentially cheaters but only suppressed here in the US because it is not accepted. No wonder there are statistics showing 70+ will cheat if they never get caught.

 

I guess once they go to China, there is no reason not to suppress their desire anymore.

 

Well, I was merely responding to your claim that the locals in China are much worse than "Westerners". Frankly if you ask me to make a a very dry objective assessment, I would say the visitors are much worse than the locals. It's like comparing the visitors to Las Vegas vs. the locals there trying to make home lives with kids and wives. The visitors, because they are away from their family and friends, tend to enjoy the anonimoty and freedom to be wild and uninhibited. What happens in LV stays in LV, kinda thing? The same thing happens in China. So, I don't think it's fair to put down the locals in China in such a bad light.

 

For example, South Korea is nowadays suffering from major prostitution issues. Some even claim 1 out of 5 young girls are involved in some kind of prostitution there. But, do you know what started it all? It was US military base with 30,000 young men stationed there in 70s. Although it was never made public but the pressure was there to provide adequate number of prostitutes for recreation of those US soldiers. South Korean gov't put great effort to do exactly that, and they are not now paying the social consequences for it. It is a huge social dilemma.

 

I wonder the same thing happened in Philippines and Thailand. You see, these issues are not that simple as you may suspect. If you dig down deep, you will find the rabit hole being a lot more than what you may have expected. My advice is do not take things at surface value. Life is much more complex than that.

[nyrias2]

Well, I was merely responding to your claim that the locals in China are much worse than "Westerners". Frankly if you ask me to make a a very dry objective assessment, I would say the visitors are much worse than the locals. It's like comparing the visitors to Las Vegas vs. the locals there trying to make home lives with kids and wives. The visitors, because they are away from their family and friends, tend to enjoy the anonimoty and freedom to be wild and uninhibited. What happens in LV stays in LV, kinda thing? The same thing happens in China. So, I don't think it's fair to put down the locals in China in such a bad light.

 

For example, South Korea is nowadays suffering from major prostitution issues. Some even claim 1 out of 5 young girls are involved in some kind of prostitution there. But, do you know what started it all? It was US military base with 30,000 young men stationed there in 70s. Although it was never made public but the pressure was there to provide adequate number of prostitutes for recreation of those US soldiers. South Korean gov't put great effort to do exactly that, and they are not now paying the social consequences for it. It is a huge social dilemma.

 

I wonder the same thing happened in Philippines and Thailand. You see, these issues are not that simple as you may suspect. If you dig down deep, you will find the rabit hole being a lot more than what you may have expected. My advice is do not take things at surface value. Life is much more complex than that.

 

I dont think what is happening in China is just an prostitution issue. While it is true that probably most er nai are doing it for the money, there are some doing it for love too (as mentioned in the article).

 

I think what is happening there is way more than just economics forcing young women to sell their bodies. It is also a social change that men are expected to have multiple partners.

 

Even if wives are reluctant to accept, as said by another poster, they really do not have the power to fight the phenomenon, particularly in a country where there can be tremendous social pressure to marry. So in a place with 99% cheaters, there are really no other choice but to marry and accept one.

[sadcalifornian]

I dont think what is happening in China is just an prostitution issue. While it is true that probably most er nai are doing it for the money, there are some doing it for love too (as mentioned in the article).

 

I think what is happening there is way more than just economics forcing young women to sell their bodies. It is also a social change that men are expected to have multiple partners.

 

Even if wives are reluctant to accept, as said by another poster, they really do not have the power to fight the phenomenon, particularly in a country where there can be tremendous social pressure to marry. So in a place with 99% cheaters, there are really no other choice but to marry and accept one.

 

I respectfully disagree. Your reasoning is all these vices are a result of bad behaviors on men's part. You see, a culture is shared by both men and women. If there is prostitution issue, some blame men for seeking prostitution, therefore women have no choice but to fill in the demand. This is bull crap. Even in China, the pressure is just incredible that girls in poor economic base doing whatever they can to subsidize their living condition by securing men. These girls do not care if the man is married or not. The relationships are so obscure that it's hard to distinguish what to call it.

 

Everytime I visit China, I am literally hit on by girls left and right smelling my financial capability. Whatever role they have to assume, they don't care as long as they get the bread crumb of what little money I can share with them. This is not what I call men's fault. It was the women's conscious choice to seek such degrading roles instead of marrying poor farmer boys back in home town. Your attempt to interpret this phenomenon as something men created at the expense of all those poor women is just not correct. It is an extremely biased feminist viewpoint, and it does not reflect the reality at all.

[sadcalifornian]

Even if wives are reluctant to accept, as said by another poster, they really do not have the power to fight the phenomenon, particularly in a country where there can be tremendous social pressure to marry. So in a place with 99% cheaters, there are really no other choice but to marry and accept one.

 

You are assuming that women there are trying to fight this "phenomenon" of polygamy, but you are wrong with such assumption. Women there are the main contributor of such phenomenon. Instead of settling with men of similar socio-economic status, they decide to go extreme length to marry up. As the result, there is this incredibly lopsided ratio of desirable men vs. women seeking those at all cost, while all these poor men are left with no hope of finding mates.

 

If I may take this argument to an extreme, I venture to claim the "phenomenon" is created mostly by women than men. It is the women's refusal to stay in their socio-economic class that create this monstrous disproportion between the "desirable men" and women. I mention this in my earlier post, and I explain again here. If US economy keeps sliding down much much further, and there are only handful of men who can provide comfortable living to to women and family, what do you think will happen in this country also?

 

In the old days, due to war and illnesses, the population of men was much less than that of women. Men may be physically stronger but their weaker immune system and need to work in a more physically demanding and thus dangerous roles created shortage of men. Women traditionally did not have the means to support themselves, and the only solution the society can provide to fix it is to allow polygamy to an extent. There simply was no other solution to solve this issue; otherwise all those women who failed to find men to support have to literally die away.

 

Well, now such economic motivation has been seemingly solved by equal education and change in job environment in a developed society. However, when there is huge economic gap among men like in China, women tend to flock to the top layer of men so much so that again there is this disproportion similar to the old days. This kind of issues cannot be explained away by bad men vs. good women theory. It's alot more complex than that.

Edited October 4, 2011 by sadcalifornian

[nyrias2]

You are assuming that women there are trying to fight this "phenomenon" of polygamy, but you are wrong with such assumption. Women there are the main contributor of such phenomenon. Instead of settling with men of similar socio-economic status, they decide to go extreme length to marry up. As the result, there is this incredibly lopsided ratio of desirable men vs. women seeking those at all cost, while all these poor men are left with no hope of finding mates.

 

If I may take this argument to an extreme, I venture to claim the "phenomenon" is created mostly by women than men. It is the women's refusal to stay in their socio-economic class that create this monstrous disproportion between the "desirable men" and women. I mention this in my earlier post, and I explain again here. If US economy keeps sliding down much much further, and there are only handful of men who can provide comfortable living to to women and family, what do you think will happen in this country also?

 

In the old days, due to war and illnesses, the population of men was much less than that of women. Men may be physically stronger but their weaker immune system and need to work in a more physically demanding and thus dangerous roles created shortage of men. Women traditionally did not have the means to support themselves, and the only solution the society can provide to fix it is to allow polygamy to an extent. There simply was no other solution to solve this issue; otherwise all those women who failed to find men to support have to literally die away.

 

Well, now such economic motivation has been seemingly solved by equal education and change in job environment in a developed society. However, when there is huge economic gap among men like in China, women tend to flock to the top layer of men so much so that again there is this disproportion similar to the old days. This kind of issues cannot be explained away by bad men vs. good women theory. It's alot more complex than that.

 

In any case, it is great for the top layer men. They have multiple wives (essentially) and there is little guilt or stigma to go with it. In fact, it probably becomes a semi-open status symbol.

 

This leads me to believe that relationships are never about love, nor respect. It is about power. The only reason why love/respect is in play in the US is because power is roughly equal.

[silic0ntoad]

ny, Why don't you post this trash in your viper-hole on the OM/OW forums? What does this prove? That a country inundated with pollution, a huge disparity between male/female population, large tracts of industrial waste land, basically allows men to cheat? Here's the question, since you're so hard on for the acceptance of the OM/OW, what do they do to WOMEN who have multiple husbands?

 

It proves only one thing; that China is a backwater nation that has no ideals when it comes to humanitarian issues. Disagree all you want, but the notion that this is beneficial is ridiculous, it's exploitation at it's worst.

[nyrias2]

ny, Why don't you post this trash in your viper-hole on the OM/OW forums? What does this prove? That a country inundated with pollution, a huge disparity between male/female population, large tracts of industrial waste land, basically allows men to cheat? Here's the question, since you're so hard on for the acceptance of the OM/OW, what do they do to WOMEN who have multiple husbands?

 

It proves only one thing; that China is a backwater nation that has no ideals when it comes to humanitarian issues. Disagree all you want, but the notion that this is beneficial is ridiculous, it's exploitation at it's worst.

 

This is an article about infidelity. This is a forum about infidelity. PERFECT FIT. Plus, i highly doubt you can prevent anyone from posting informative article.

 

And, where did i say is it "beneficial"? You need to read more carefully.

[silic0ntoad]

This is an article about infidelity. This is a forum about infidelity. PERFECT FIT. Plus, i highly doubt you can prevent anyone from posting informative article.

 

And, where did i say is it "beneficial"? You need to read more carefully.

 

Did I say you said it was beneficial? I don't believe so. And no, this article is not about infidelity. It's about exploitation of young women by men with power.

 

And while I can't prevent you from posting it, you can't prevent me from pointing out the obvious; you're attempts at swaying people with mentions of "morality" and "culture" are ludicrous; we're comparing the cultures of America and China, are you kidding?

 

The lives of the people in china are hindered by what I said above. Your blatant lack of regard for social circuimstances and attempts at using culture as an excuse for exploitation are very misinformed.

[nyrias2]

Did I say you said it was beneficial? I don't believe so. And no, this article is not about infidelity. It's about exploitation of young women by men with power.

 

And while I can't prevent you from posting it, you can't prevent me from pointing out the obvious; you're attempts at swaying people with mentions of "morality" and "culture" are ludicrous; we're comparing the cultures of America and China, are you kidding?

 

The lives of the people in china are hindered by what I said above. Your blatant lack of regard for social circuimstances and attempts at using culture as an excuse for exploitation are very misinformed.

 

Sure. Point out whatever you like.

 

The more discussion about the article, the better. After all, it is all about a free exchange of ideas.

 

Sure, don't compare. Isn't it interesting to see how a different culture can have a totally different value system than America?

 

You don't think Americans should know that? Too bad. The information is out there. It is a perfectly interesting article fitting the theme of this forum to a T.

[silic0ntoad]

While you may think it relevant, no one here wants to read that nonsense.

[nyrias2]

While you may think it relevant, no one here wants to read that nonsense.

 

I am sure that is true with 1500+ views and 4 pages of comments.

 

Thank you for keep bumping it up to the top of the forum so more people can see and read it. Keep up the good work!!

[sadcalifornian]

The bottom line is that "survivalship" precedes any "morality" and "culture". Those women who pursue relentlessly the financially desirable men are simply acting on their primal instinct. It would be difficult for men to not fall into the temptation of accepting these women on the side when they are surrounded by the willing, pursuing younger women from all angles. The pressue I felt while staying in China was just incredible.

 

When I mentioned my disapproval of such lifestyle to the Chinese associate there, she said that this is how most young girls in major cities in China make their ends meet. The average income for these young girls who moved from the poor area to major cities such as Shanghai just cannot support themselves without prostituting themselves to the rich married men. She was basically saying that there is no other way to survive living in the developed city such as Shanghai with their meager income alone. She was talking about their survival, not morality or anything else.

 

The part I don't agree with your view is that you seem to think the developed western society is any better. I say no. Do you know when the word "bachelorhood" has come to exist in western society? During the booming economy in Europe based on ever expanding colonial economy, a rather large population of men found themselves so well off that they refuse to commit themselves to the monogomy of traditional marriage. They rather enjoy living in non-commital free sex life style of bachelorhood. So, the status of "bachelorhood" has become something they came to identify themselves as, and the society has come to accept it as just another style of life. Just like these days, people feel they just identify their sexual life style as straight, gay, or lesbian. This was unthinkable in the traditional sense, but when so many people do this, the society has no choice but to accept this as reality.

 

The downside of such "bachelorhood" becoming popular among successful men was there was huge explosion of women who just cannot find the suitable men to support them and thus had to turn to the life of prostitution. The story of Jack the Ripper is also based on this era and the social phenomenon. The London was filled with street walking prostitutes who would sell their body for money to these so called bachelors, who have enough money to buy sex with different women every night. Such irony, isn't it? Britain in those time was extremely affluent, yet this huge population of women couldn't find the mate and became prostitutes to buy bread for themselves.

 

This kind of social phenomenon has more to do with economic power distribution and people's survial instincts rather than morality and culture. What is happening in China can easily happen in USA too if the socio-economic power distribution changes. And, when the survival is threatened, morality is tossed away like a piece of toilet paper. Thinking those of us living in so-called western culture are immune to this just because we are morally or culturally superior is a total bull crap.

Edited October 24, 2011 by sadcalifornian

[StoneCold]

This kind of social phenomenon has more to do with economic power distribution and people's survial instincts rather than morality and culture. What is happening in China can easily happen in USA too if the socio-economic power distribution changes. And, when the survival is threatened, morality is tossed away like a piece of toilet paper. Thinking those of us living in so-called western culture are immune to this just because we are morally or culturally superior is a total bull crap.

 

 

Agreed...

 

But Californian.... This is already happening here in the North America. The only difference is they are open about it and we're not. I'm noticing more and more married women not being as taken with infidelity as they used to...just so long as the guy provides a comfortable lifestyle and doesnt put it in their face, many women just as soon turn a blind eye. Not to mention when I was in University every other half decent looking hottie I knew had some sort of "secret" sugar daddy/baby "deal" going on. Mind you that was 15 years ago so you could imagine how it is now.....and thats what makes allof this hilarious; you'll get many "westerners" shaking their finger at this saying "not us..."..... meanwhile its happening right in their own backyard

[StoneCold]

So basically the wives have no choice but to accept something that they probably don't like, wouldn't choose, and otherwise wouldn't agree to if they actually had a choice?

 

 

How is that a "good thing" in any fashion? I can't see that as any kind of "improvement" over western perceptions or actions...this doesn't seem like any kind of positive behavior we should consider emulating in any fashion.

 

Doesn't sound like a "solution" to infidelity and how it's perceived to me.

 

Owl...

 

They have a choice....Chinese divorce all the time. I dont have solid stats but I wouldnt be surprised if their divorce rate is no different from ours (or even worse).

 

They just have different deal breakers