woinlove Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 The statistics that I know : After an A: 2/3rd stay, 1/3 divorce. Out of 2/3 who stay (66%), 75% of them value their marriage as "empty", which leads to think only 16.5% (25% of those 66%) of WS have a fulfilled M after an A. Those stats remind me of other studies which have found the best indicator of a happy marriage is that the person was happy when they were single. How many WS are even capable of sustaining their part of a fulfilling M? Change as an adult is difficult and I wonder how many WS really do change. Obviously some do, and perhaps staying in the M is more likely to get them to change because they are more likely to go through counselling and their partner likely recognizes they need to change. But, even staying in the M, is certainly no guarantee that the WS will change. Some may have brought problems with them into the M and some may continue to carry them for life.
Spark1111 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Hmmmm....stats are slippery. I've read that 85% of all men and 95% of all women will take back a cheating spouse after discovery of infidelity. Of that number, 55% divorce within 5 years because reconciliation was handled poorly (rug sweepers who do not seek professional help to improve the marriage, IMO). If counseling and changes and commitment and fun and dating and honest communication and good conflict, resolution skills are learned and practiced, love can indeed flourish once again. When proper steps are taken to handle the aftermath well, and two re-commit and do the hard work necessary, 85% will be married after 5 years. The greatest indicator is how remorseful, transparent, and honest the WS becomes about the affair within those five years. If they do not change, neither will the marriage, and it will be the BS who files. As for me? No. After DDay i told my H I hope love AND counseling would be enough, and that it would not be too little too late. Love in a long-term relationship HAS to be about respect, sacrifice, humility, commitment, support and NOT EGO. Love shouldn't hurt. If it does, it is selfish, selfish, selfish, IMO.
Spark1111 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 What the A taught me is that people confuse LOVE and RELATIONSHIP. Love can exist without a relationship. Of course people that are in love want to have a relationship but it takes more than just love to make it happen : 1- Loving at right time at right place : No triangle R, no affairs, no long-distance barriers. Many R fail because of the distance. 2- Compatibility : Love without compatibility is a disaster. The person you love may be abusive or simply not the right person for you. No relationship can survive incompatibility in the long run. Whatever most BS say, I believe that many WS don't stay because they love the BS more than the AP, but because there is more than just Love in the equation. Some really stay for the children, some because of the finances, some because of the fear of the unknown and for a variety of reasons that they put in the balance with Love. Lots of WS stay because they think they are doing 'the right thing'. And what a misguided concept that is. And not if the spouse knows of the affair. Because once we do, like SF says, we want all the passion, joy, love, fun to be had with a partner, just like the WS had. And we will give them a shot to step up to the plate, if we truly love them. If the don't, then the love erodes, the balance of power shifts and the relationship will most likely end in divorce....within 5 years.
seren Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Interesting discussion, everytime I read SG's tagline I ask myself the same question and it was one of the questions I asked H after the A. He said he loved me, always had, I said I had always loved him, still did and the, why wasn't that enough? H's answer was that he didn't love himself and didn't feel he had anything to give to me, us our marriage. As his A was largely down to his state of mind at the time, I was inclined to agree (military, Iraq, PTSD, long story). In all the time we had been together I felt the Hollywood love, the pit of the stomach thing and wanted that, it was unrealistic and maybe set him up to feel inadequate. I had no experience of what a loving marriage looked like and almost feared the day mine would become settled. After D Day and the years following, our marriage, our relationship is a more settled one and TBH, I wish I had realised years ago that there is a certain comfort in being comfy with each other. Not that we don't have our Hollywood moments, but we have so much more than what I call, long lingering looks. We have, remember when ....conversations, we have the I remember when I first saw you, conversations and in amongst all the mundane, we have an enduring love. Was that enough to weather an A? well it seems to be. If I hadn't loved him I would have walked without a backward look, if I didn't have faith in the inherent character of him I would have walked, I understood the A, but I also understood him, our relationship and our marriage and could identify what had gone wrong. A marriage or relationship without love can work, if both are on the same page and don't expect love to be the underlying emotion. Love for me at least, is knowing I am where I want to be and that he is where he wants to be too. H always had a fear of death, he said that knowing that we would be dust together and that we would always be together gives him comfort and, while a little bit weird and possibly macabre, gives me comfort too. I have his back and he mine, I really wouldn't want to go back to how it was and think that our love has matured, our marriage is a mish mash of 27 years of memories and experiences, but our relationship is and I hope always will be based upon the love we have for each other.... and I still haven't answered Is Love Enough, hmm, it is for me....but even then I wouldn't go through D Day 2 for anyone.
So Very Confused Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Love isn't enough. It doesn't matter if it's a M, LTR or A. In my marriage I loved my xH more than anyone I've ever known. I still do but those feeling weren't enough to make up for the actions he showed me. Same thing with the xMM. I loved him and still do. I probably always will but those feelings aren't enough to make up for his lack of actions. Sometimes you can love someone with your whole heart, and they can love you with what is left of theirs and it still isn't enough. There's love and then there's the real world we live in. Sometimes you can't have both together in the same place.
alphamale Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 AP - Affair Partner BS - Betrayed Spouse WS: Wayward Spouse OW/OM- Other Woman, Other Man i see......
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 to answer that, one would have to specify what their definition of "love" means. If one is referring to the "butterflies" feeling, then I would hazard a guess that no,love is not enough. While that may feel wonderful, it is not, in my opinion, enough to build a long lasting relationship. The same goes for flowery words... talk is cheap, action is dear, and it is the action that counts. I have a friend who is married, as she has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. She loves her husband, and he loves her, but it will never be enough. She is very abusive to him and he tries to fill the "hole in her spirit" that no one can fill. They love each other in as much as they can love someone else, but it isn't enough to keep them from both being terribly sad a lot of the time. Love isn't enough if there is no action to back it up...another thing I learned the hard way ( I was much younger then) Great post!
East7 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Are you speaking of marriages where the wife strays and falls in love with the OM? I would then tend to agree (somewhat) with what you write. I'm mostly talking about MW who choose to stay although they love their OM. Most of them leave the M emotionally before starting the A though they are not looking for another relationship (as I said Love and relationship are 2 different things). A few MW will successfully reconcile and be happy again but most of them will never be emotionally back in their M (source Michelle Langley).
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 What the A taught me is that people confuse LOVE and RELATIONSHIP. Love can exist without a relationship. Of course people that are in love want to have a relationship but it takes more than just love to make it happen : 1- Loving at right time at right place : No triangle R, no affairs, no long-distance barriers. Many R fail because of the distance. 2- Compatibility : Love without compatibility is a disaster. The person you love may be abusive or simply not the right person for you. No relationship can survive incompatibility in the long run. Whatever most BS say, I believe that many WS don't stay because they love the BS more than the AP, but because there is more than just Love in the equation. Some really stay for the children, some because of the finances, some because of the fear of the unknown and for a variety of reasons that they put in the balance with Love. Lots of WS stay because they think they are doing 'the right thing'. That is such a great distinction! One can indeed have a relationship without love and have love without a relationship. All great points you brought up! Love cannot exist in a vacuum.
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 Being in love isn't enough to sustain a lasting R. I think both being in love and truly loving each other -- the kind of love where you really care about and want only the best for each other, where it would cause pain to your own heart if the other has to lie or fragment his/her life, is at the core of a successful, lasting R. Then combine that with shared values and the ability and desire for continuous, ongoing, open and honest communication. I agree and have come to say that I'd rather be loved than have someone be "inlove" with me. The latter IMO is a feeling, it is tied to romance, people fall in and out of it effortlessly, it can often be motivated my selfishness and for lack of a better word "carnal desires" lol, hence people can fall in and out of it...as it is just a transient feeling but truly loving is another matter that surpasses that.
herenow Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Love is not enough, but it's a good start. It also depends on how you (the general you) define love. What kind of love are you willing to give? What kind of love are you happy to accept? I don't think the word "love" has a universal definition. It's very individual IMO.
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) Love is not enough, but it's a good start. It also depends on how you (the general you) define love. What kind of love are you willing to give? What kind of love are you happy to accept? I don't think the word "love" has a universal definition. It's very individual IMO. One criteria I have for a serious, especially longterm partner, is that our ideas about love have to be in sync. It makes no sense if what he considers love is not what I consider love. Him loving me the best "he can" is of no use to me, which is also why I like the idea of knowing your partner's love language" and knowing the actions, words, etc that make them feel loved and they should know that about you as well. Example of that love langue: if spending time with me is how I feel loved, then a partner has to understand that and be willing to do that. If he doesn't do that and buys me things to show me love (as maybe that is his love language) then we already have a misunderstanding and our love languages are conflicting. I think it is indeed important to start with someone who's conceptualization of love is in sync with yours and then also the actual actions/words/deeds that make you feel love should be learned and communicated between partners. Edited September 22, 2011 by MissBee
Circular Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Love in itself is not enough, no. I think love can push us to take actions, it can push us to make decisions, but our actions and decisions aren't the only things in the world. It's like anything in life; we can prepare ourselves, educate ourselves, be the best we can be but it takes timing and opportunity to fulfill a successful course of action.
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