MissBee Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 Silly Girl has this pertinent question as her signature.... It's an important one. OW/OM waiting, dating, being with their AP because they love them, BS staying with WS because they love them, other people in questionable relationships because they love their partner.... Is love enough? My stance: love without the right circumstances isn't enough. The one without the other doesn't do much good for me. Any thought?
alphamale Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 i'd love to answer except i don't know what these acronyms mean
SoMovinOn Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Silly Girl has this pertinent question as her signature.... It's an important one. OW/OM waiting, dating, being with their AP because they love them, BS staying with WS because they love them, other people in questionable relationships because they love their partner.... Is love enough? My stance: love without the right circumstances isn't enough. The one without the other doesn't do much good for me. Any thought? Experience has taught me love is not enough to sustain a relationship. Maybe it is more correct to say, one person loving another is not enough. With a person who cannot love themselves, a person who is broken and cannot or will not help themselves, it is impossible to love them enough to overcome that. I love my nephew and have done everything possible for him, but he has to deal with his addictions and demons on his own. After years of trying, I finally learned I cannot help him. The same is true with my STBXW. I thought I could love her enough to help her. I did everything possible, and something things that maybe should have been impossible... but I finally had to admit to myself that I could never possibly do enough.
fooled once Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Silly Girl has this pertinent question as her signature.... It's an important one. OW/OM waiting, dating, being with their AP because they love them, BS staying with WS because they love them, other people in questionable relationships because they love their partner.... Is love enough? My stance: love without the right circumstances isn't enough. The one without the other doesn't do much good for me. Any thought? No, IMHO. Love is not enough. Just because you love someone doesn't mean respect, honesty, dignity, communication, etc are there. And without all those OTHER things, it isn't love IMHO anyway. Love IMHO doesn't disrespect, belittle, cause intentional pain, etc that affairs are engulfed in. IF a person was married and met someone else who they had feelings for, they would leave their current situation before having sex with the new person. That shows respect for the spouse AND the person they wanted to have sex with, IMHO. To sneak around and all that, that's not love, IMHO.
SoMovinOn Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 No, IMHO. Love is not enough. Just because you love someone doesn't mean respect, honesty, dignity, communication, etc are there. And without all those OTHER things, it isn't love IMHO anyway. I totally agree and though of saying something along those lines in my original response - that often, when love isn't enough, it isn't love. Love IMHO doesn't disrespect, belittle, cause intentional pain, etc that affairs are engulfed in. Well, right. A person involved in an A likely is not in love with their spouse, thus, the A.
His4Always Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Silly Girl has this pertinent question as her signature.... It's an important one. OW/OM waiting, dating, being with their AP because they love them, BS staying with WS because they love them, other people in questionable relationships because they love their partner.... Is love enough? My stance: love without the right circumstances isn't enough. The one without the other doesn't do much good for me. Any thought?Hi Miss Bee, I don't think love is enough in any relationship, not just extra marital ones. JP and I share so much more than love. I really must remember how fortunate I am.
whichwayisup Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Hi Miss Bee, I don't think love is enough in any relationship, not just extra marital ones. JP and I share so much more than love. I really must remember how fortunate I am. What else do you share? you don't live with him, have children with him, share finances, share family, inlaws, friends.. What you share with him is IN an affair setting, based on lies and deception on the expense of his wife. It's a false sense of reality, a bubble that could break at any time.
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 No, IMHO. Love is not enough. Just because you love someone doesn't mean respect, honesty, dignity, communication, etc are there. And without all those OTHER things, it isn't love IMHO anyway. Love IMHO doesn't disrespect, belittle, cause intentional pain, etc that affairs are engulfed in. IF a person was married and met someone else who they had feelings for, they would leave their current situation before having sex with the new person. That shows respect for the spouse AND the person they wanted to have sex with, IMHO. To sneak around and all that, that's not love, IMHO. I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded. As I have grown my idea of love has evolved as well and has become more refined. I'm realized foremost, that love isn't a feeling, it's a verb. I think so many when they talk about love it's leaning towards feeling good around this person or being "crazy" over them but there is no substance behind it...none of what you've named, or very little. Like my friend who I often cite here, who has been in the same bad relationship for the last 5 years, of course cites love, but try as I might all I see is attachment but no love. I am learning that love consists of so much more than a feeling and it's something that has to be nurtured and built and it's not something you land into. I think when one feels like love is primarily a feeling then it is easy to get carried away or to try to build even when there is absolutely no floor beneath you...I've done it Now I realize that 1. what I have been thinking is love is not always love and 2.love and actually building a life with someone takes more than a feeling and without those core things and without us having primary values in common and a compatible path then I can "feel" however I wish to feel but it doesn't mean much....
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 Enough for what? To sustain a relationship, to marry, to wait for someone, to invest time and emotions in someone.
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 Hi Miss Bee, I don't think love is enough in any relationship, not just extra marital ones. JP and I share so much more than love. I really must remember how fortunate I am. If you don't mind me asking, what else do you share?
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 i'd love to answer except i don't know what these acronyms mean AP - Affair Partner BS - Betrayed Spouse WS: Wayward Spouse OW/OM- Other Woman, Other Man
Silly_Girl Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 It's not unusual for murder victims to be loved by their killer... I think there are relationships which break down in the presence of much love. A woman who worked for me split from her husband (only after 5 years of battling and lots of help from her church) because although they loved one another he worked in a field that took him away from home too much. When he was out of work their relationship was strong but he personally suffered. It became too much and it was so sad. The love was always there but the relationship couldn't survive the practical limitations.
Author MissBee Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) It's not unusual for murder victims to be loved by their killer... I think there are relationships which break down in the presence of much love. A woman who worked for me split from her husband (only after 5 years of battling and lots of help from her church) because although they loved one another he worked in a field that took him away from home too much. When he was out of work their relationship was strong but he personally suffered. It became too much and it was so sad. The love was always there but the relationship couldn't survive the practical limitations. I can understand that. I value love of course, but my attitude is that without the right circumstances it is a hassle and love (the feeling in particular, doesn't stand alone or overall love is not just about a feeling). All hope isn't loss though, as I do believe that it is possible to love someone and also have the right circumstances and I don't believe in star-crossed lovers that are your one true love, so that if there are limitations, you'll never find another. I think that person was one of your matches but if the circumstances didn't work themselves out or the necessary steps to compromise aren't willing to be taken...then it's probably best to seek another of your matches. My former AP was one of my matches....but the circumstances weren't right and I view it as meaning we weren't meant to be for all eternity. I have also grown to where while I did love him, my capacity to love and the quality of my love is a lot more refined now than it was when we were together, so I am excited about future prospects in that regard. I am very much of the mind that after each relationship, if love was truly involved, it should have elevated you to another level of loving, so that you can love again and love even deeper and not where it has ruined your chances to ever love another... Edited September 22, 2011 by MissBee
NoIDidn't Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Many years ago, my H and I had this conversation as we were considering a separation. It was before we had kids, so it would have been a clean break. After several days of thinking about it and giving each other the space to think about the decision we had before us, we decided that love wasn't enough by itself, but that we had more than just love. I think the things that one wants to go with love are different for each relationship, though.
SoMovinOn Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Love isn't enough if there is no action to back it up...another thing I learned the hard way ( I was much younger then) But, as I think has been mentioned in some other responses here, one has to wonder if when love isn't enough because it isn't supported by the things that, pretty much, define love, then ... perhaps it isn't enough because it isn't love to begin with. Over the course of my life, I have heard people say something like "He loves her in his own way" ... usually referring to someone who doesn't seem to have a clue what love is, and he treats her like ****. That phrase, used in that context, really bothers me. As I see it, it usually applies to an abusive relationship and it is intended as an excuse for the abuse, as in "Yeah, he doesn't treat her very well, but he loves her in his own way." ... even worse when *she* is the one saying it. 1
nyrias2 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Silly Girl has this pertinent question as her signature.... It's an important one. OW/OM waiting, dating, being with their AP because they love them, BS staying with WS because they love them, other people in questionable relationships because they love their partner.... Is love enough? My stance: love without the right circumstances isn't enough. The one without the other doesn't do much good for me. Any thought? Enough for WHAT? Enough to have a good time? Yes. Enough to affect decisions? Yes. Enough for maintaining a long term stable relationship? No.
East7 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 What the A taught me is that people confuse LOVE and RELATIONSHIP. Love can exist without a relationship. Of course people that are in love want to have a relationship but it takes more than just love to make it happen : 1- Loving at right time at right place : No triangle R, no affairs, no long-distance barriers. Many R fail because of the distance. 2- Compatibility : Love without compatibility is a disaster. The person you love may be abusive or simply not the right person for you. No relationship can survive incompatibility in the long run. Whatever most BS say, I believe that many WS don't stay because they love the BS more than the AP, but because there is more than just Love in the equation. Some really stay for the children, some because of the finances, some because of the fear of the unknown and for a variety of reasons that they put in the balance with Love. Lots of WS stay because they think they are doing 'the right thing'.
Gentlegirl Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 In my case absolutely not! xMM had been married for 48 years. He had a history of half a life time with his W.. he had grown up kids and grandkids. He also had his financial future invested in the marriage. He might have loved me with all his heart... I have no idea, but he certainly wasn't going to walk away from almost 50 years of marriage and family for me. What a nightmare it would have been for me too. Love would have soon gone out the window for sure. However, he is back on dating websites, so I wonder how much all that really means to him. Gentlegirl
woinlove Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Being in love isn't enough to sustain a lasting R. I think both being in love and truly loving each other -- the kind of love where you really care about and want only the best for each other, where it would cause pain to your own heart if the other has to lie or fragment his/her life, is at the core of a successful, lasting R. Then combine that with shared values and the ability and desire for continuous, ongoing, open and honest communication.
rafallus Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Of course not. First off, love isn't rigoristically defined by anyone. You can pretty much stretch and bend definition to fit it to whatever your motives are at the moment, if you feel like it. Even what I consider as love, isn't some infallible and undying force that will last forever, like Hollywood would like to shove it down your throat. No, it is often killed by distance, or by lack of effort on one or both parts, or by sudden personality change (say, in brain damaging accident, or after a stroke), to name a few factors.
Snowflower Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 What the A taught me is that people confuse LOVE and RELATIONSHIP. Love can exist without a relationship. And the inverse is also true sometimes...a relationship can exist without love...but not for the long term. Of course people that are in love want to have a relationship but it takes more than just love to make it happen : I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote above but I am kind of confused by what you wrote below which seems to be a contradiction of sorts... Whatever most BS say, I believe that many WS don't stay because they love the BS more than the AP, but because there is more than just Love in the equation. Some really stay for the children, some because of the finances, some because of the fear of the unknown and for a variety of reasons that they put in the balance with Love. Lots of WS stay because they think they are doing 'the right thing'. If the relationship needs more than love to make it happen but yet the WS stays with the BS for whatever reason besides love, then how does the marriage relationship work? Many couples stay together after infidelity for years or the rest of their lives...if love wasn't a part of that marriage, then how else would it work? I know it is not a popular notion that the WS stays with the BS/marriage because they love them but how else would the marriage work long term? Most people can only deal with a loveless relationship for just so long. Why would a BS be any different? If I knew/felt/observed that my H no longer loved me after an affair, why would I continue to stick around? I would want a loving, fulfilling relationship just like anyone else. Why would I settle for less than that?
East7 Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) And the inverse is also true sometimes...a relationship can exist without love...but not for the long term. A R can exist without love..Yes. For example the arranged marriages in many oriental cultures. The spouses don't even know each-other before they marry, still they are together because it is "right". I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote above but I am kind of confused by what you wrote below which seems to be a contradiction of sorts... If the relationship needs more than love to make it happen but yet the WS stays with the BS for whatever reason besides love, then how does the marriage relationship work? Many couples stay together after infidelity for years or the rest of their lives...if love wasn't a part of that marriage, then how else would it work? I know it is not a popular notion that the WS stays with the BS/marriage because they love them but how else would the marriage work long term? Most people can only deal with a loveless relationship for just so long. Why would a BS be any different? Because a relationship can continue even without much love when both want to stay. I never said the WS who stays doens't love at all her BS. It may be another kind of love, affectionate and caring. Some may work it out and fall in love all over again with the BS though most of WS will never find the same feelings ever again. I am not contradicting, I said a relationship can exist without love. Those who 'reestablish' love after an A do exist but they are exemptions. The statistics that I know : After an A: 2/3rd stay, 1/3 divorce. Out of 2/3 who stay (66%), 75% of them value their marriage as "empty", which leads to think only 16.5% (25% of those 66%) of WS have a fulfilled M after an A. Edited September 22, 2011 by East7
Snowflower Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 [quote=East7;3638894 I never said the WS who stays doens't love at all her BS. It may be another kind of love, affectionate and caring. Some may work it out and fall in love all over again with the BS though most of WS will never find the same feelings ever again. I am not contradicting, I said a relationship can exist without love. Those who 'reestablish' love after an A do exist but they are exemptions. The statistics that I know : After an A: 2/3rd stay, 1/3 divorce. Out of 2/3 who stay (66%), 75% of them value their marriage as "empty", which leads to think only 16.5% (25% of those 66%) of WS have a fulfilled M after an A. Are you speaking of marriages where the wife strays and falls in love with the OM? I would then tend to agree (somewhat) with what you write.
NoIDidn't Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 The statistics that I know : After an A: 2/3rd stay, 1/3 divorce. Out of 2/3 who stay (66%), 75% of them value their marriage as "empty", which lead to think only 16.5% (25% of those 66%) of WS have a fulfilled M after an A. I've seen these stats in action. I am so glad to be in the smaller group of people that have used the issues the affair brought up to create a more fulfilling marriage. A marriage, but truly any long term committed relationship, is going to go through phases of "emptiness" as they are opportunities for growth for the individuals in the marriage. I'm sad that the pain of an affair is ever visited on them and the OPs that help them. I've mostly seen former OPs forever damaged by the dangling expectations and the loss of what they really felt was love with "the one". I've seen most marriages that stay together end up miserable, for whatever reason (continued cheating, retaliatory cheating, avoidance of issues, whatever). Love wasn't enough to keep them from cheating and it wasn't enough to the former OP to remember that at least that had love when what they really wanted was so much more than that. Heartbreaking for all. And the stats bear it out.
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