A new twist on the "who pays?" debate

[TheBigQuestion]

As a guy, I've always felt that society has unfairly pressured men into believing that dating cannot successfully occur without paying for a woman on said dates, or at least offering to pay. Most guys, even if a woman expresses a desire to go dutch, will still insist on taking care of expenses anyway. And lets face it. Most women, even when offering to go dutch, secretly expect or feel entitled to being paid for anyway. I've always thought that this behavior was damaging, not only because it can get pretty expensive, not only because it serves as an ego boost to women at the expense of men, but because it is illogical to spend time and resources on huge gambles as well.

 

Dating is in and of itself a huge gamble. People sacrifice their time, they put themselves in a vulnerable situation emotionally by being subject to rejection, humiliation, being strung along, deceived, and so forth. And all this is before one gets to the committed relationship stage. So my intuition tells me, "if you don't absolutely have to put money into dating in addition to everything else, why do men continuously insist on doing it?"

 

Time for a hypothetical. Suppose I meet a random girl on a dating site, "Jessica." I take her out on a date, dinner and drinks, maybe $50-60 total. Nothing fancy. I insist on paying. This is a first, second, or maybe third date. I've spent money when I could have just as easily gotten to know her better spending no money at all. What exactly is it about this hypothetical that leads to a potentially damaging situation for me? Simple. I don't know anything about Jessica. She might not have liked the way my hair sits atop my head and might never speak to me again, or she might do "the fadeout." Or she might be going home after dinner and drinks that I paid for and calling up some other random dude to have sex. She could be on her way to yet another date that very night. She might still be texting a tenacious ex-boyfriend.

 

Call it pride or ego, but something about even the possibility of those happening does not sit well with me. Dating is risky and time consuming for the reasons I mentioned initially. But what's the one thing I actually DO have control over in this situation? The answer is: my wallet.

 

And my adventures in the past 18 months have proven to me that, with a little ingenuity and the ability to be a bit of a social chameleon, it is possible to get everything from FWBs to committed, loving relationships with successful and intelligent women all without spending money. During this time period, I unconsciously did not pay for any woman that I was "seeing" other than the money I spent on transportation/feeding myself, or at least I didn't spend any money that I did not know would be equally reciprocated (or even exceeded).

 

So I guess my answer to the question in the thread's title is: "No one pays, at least not at first."

 

I'm willing to discuss exactly what I did, but I know this post is long already, and I've probably lost some of you as a result

Edited September 21, 2011 by TheBigQuestion

[Mangomonkey]

I wanna know

[Voldar]

Your post isn't that long. Sounds intriguing, elaborate more if you'd like.

[D-Lish]

Here's how I date with regard to splitting the bill:

 

If I know I am NOT going to want to see the guy again and he insists on paying, I won't let him. I'll insist on splitting.

 

If I know I am going to see the guy again and he insists on paying, I'll let him, and I'll treat him the next time.

 

If I go on a date with someone I am attracted to and want to see him again and he makes a big deal about splitting the bill- I'd never go out with him again. I'll always offer to split the bill, I always do. But the kind of guy that suggests the split is not second date material.

[TheBigQuestion]

Here's how I date with regard to splitting the bill:

 

If I know I am NOT going to want to see the guy again and he insists on paying, I won't let him. I'll insist on splitting.

 

If I know I am going to see the guy again and he insists on paying, I'll let him, and I'll treat him the next time.

 

If I go on a date with someone I am attracted to and want to see him again and he makes a big deal about splitting the bill- I'd never go out with him again. I'll always offer to split the bill, I always do. But the kind of guy that suggests the split is not second date material.

 

Just so I'm clear: If a guy wants to split the bill and is a jerk about it, he's not second date material? Or any guy who wants to split the bill is not second date material?

[Hot Chick]

If there is a real connection, there is never an issue with "who pays." It just falls into place. It's never been an issue with dating in my life. If you are putting this much thought and worry into paying for a dinner for a woman you want to spend time with and are looking at possibly developing a relationship with, then you aren't going to be any fun to date for any woman. You are going to be uptight if you are thinking about your wallet, focusing on who will pay after you ask her out for a second date, worried that she's dating another guy and yet you just paid for her dinner and movie....life is too short to worry about this, just date, find someone who does it for you, and live and love!

[TheBigQuestion]

Alright, sure. I really wrote this thread with the intention of eliciting a discussion, but I'd be glad to go into detail as to how I came to the realization. Unfortunately, I doubt its instructional value. It's something I did without really thinking about it and could somehow be unique to me for all I know.

 

First off, some things that need to be cleared up about who I am. I'm a decent looking guy, in decent shape, with a variety of interests and goals, pursuing a career in law. I can work a crowd if in the right mood, but at my core, I am a reserved and socially timid person, and was very much a late bloomer when it came to women. I suffer from a variety of insecurities, many of which I've aired on this board. So no, I'm not a player, I don't have dazzling charisma, and I don't look like George Clooney.

 

I think the key to making this sort of thing work is having access to multiple social outlets which expose you to a wide variety of people. Basically, being in multiple groups of friends that collectively provide you with a wide circle of acquaintances, all of whom get together on at least a semi-regular basis to socialize in small-to-medium sized parties/get-togethers.

 

I have three groups, although at this point they aren't relevant to my dating life since I have a girlfriend. I'm a musician in a band that gigs fairly regularly. Musicians are great at being friends with other musicians, and musicians in my area tend to have a good amount of female friends (they aren't groupies though. I'm not in Motley Crue). This connection is also fading away because the second year of law school is less mental torture than the first but way more work. The second group is law school friends and acquaintances, which are a bit separated geographically from everyone else, but still within reasonable driving distance. The third group consists of leftover college and fraternity friends who are slowly fading away but were relevant for the purposes of finding women to date up until 6 months ago.

 

Having multiple networks like this gives you the opportunity to interact with dozens of women in social situations where people are open and cordial and where alcohol frequently acts as a social lubricant. The fact that you are afforded the opportunity to interact with these women at length without having to go through the trouble of setting up a date frequently means that the scenario of setting up a date won't ever come up in the first place, or at least, not until you've already known the woman a little better and can decide whether spending money on her is worth it. The fact that we had mutual friends and already having hung out with me in the past made these women more comfortable with just coming over to my place to shoot the breeze, or for me to go to her place. This effectively sidesteps the "dating" process because at this point, it's already very possible to gauge whether you actually like her and whether she actually likes you. At this point, you've hopefully made a connection already, and what money have you spent? Your gas money to get around? Your own drinks? Your own food? Yes. Have you spent money on her? No. Why? Because you didn't have to and it worked anyway.

 

So if I have any advice, it's get a lot of acquaintances. Haha.

[Hot Chick]

Ummm.....ok? lol

[TheBigQuestion]

If there is a real connection, there is never an issue with "who pays." It just falls into place. It's never been an issue with dating in my life. If you are putting this much thought and worry into paying for a dinner for a woman you want to spend time with and are looking at possibly developing a relationship with, then you aren't going to be any fun to date for any woman. You are going to be uptight if you are thinking about your wallet, focusing on who will pay after you ask her out for a second date, worried that she's dating another guy and yet you just paid for her dinner and movie....life is too short to worry about this, just date, find someone who does it for you, and live and love!

 

Maybe you can tell my girlfriend that I'm no fun to date. I'm sure she'd have a word or two for you

 

I'm not cheap. I just don't believe in spending money on people I don't know well enough or trust. The first actual date I had with my girlfriend was after we were facebook official. The way I see it, this is the way it should be, not the other way around. I expect you and most other women who post here to take exception with what I say, or at least conclude that I'm being too petty or analytical. In my opinion, all I've really done is leveled out the playing field. In early stages of romantic interaction, women have an advantage that society still reinforces despite the effects of the feminist movement. The advantage is that men are expected to woo the woman, frequently with paying for dates, buying her drinks, etc. My point is, you don't need any of that.

[TheBigQuestion]

Ummm.....ok? lol

 

That post was directed to Voldar. I forgot to quote. It's late. Sorry if there was any confusion.

[Voldar]

Alright, sure. I really wrote this thread with the intention of eliciting a discussion, but I'd be glad to go into detail as to how I came to the realization. Unfortunately, I doubt its instructional value. It's something I did without really thinking about it and could somehow be unique to me for all I know.

 

First off, some things that need to be cleared up about who I am. I'm a decent looking guy, in decent shape, with a variety of interests and goals, pursuing a career in law. I can work a crowd if in the right mood, but at my core, I am a reserved and socially timid person, and was very much a late bloomer when it came to women. I suffer from a variety of insecurities, many of which I've aired on this board. So no, I'm not a player, I don't have dazzling charisma, and I don't look like George Clooney.

 

I think the key to making this sort of thing work is having access to multiple social outlets which expose you to a wide variety of people. Basically, being in multiple groups of friends that collectively provide you with a wide circle of acquaintances, all of whom get together on at least a semi-regular basis to socialize in small-to-medium sized parties/get-togethers.

 

I have three groups, although at this point they aren't relevant to my dating life since I have a girlfriend. I'm a musician in a band that gigs fairly regularly. Musicians are great at being friends with other musicians, and musicians in my area tend to have a good amount of female friends (they aren't groupies though. I'm not in Motley Crue). This connection is also fading away because the second year of law school is less mental torture than the first but way more work. The second group is law school friends and acquaintances, which are a bit separated geographically from everyone else, but still within reasonable driving distance. The third group consists of leftover college and fraternity friends who are slowly fading away but were relevant for the purposes of finding women to date up until 6 months ago.

 

Having multiple networks like this gives you the opportunity to interact with dozens of women in social situations where people are open and cordial and where alcohol frequently acts as a social lubricant. The fact that you are afforded the opportunity to interact with these women at length without having to go through the trouble of setting up a date frequently means that the scenario of setting up a date won't ever come up in the first place, or at least, not until you've already known the woman a little better and can decide whether spending money on her is worth it. The fact that we had mutual friends and already having hung out with me in the past made these women more comfortable with just coming over to my place to shoot the breeze, or for me to go to her place. This effectively sidesteps the "dating" process because at this point, it's already very possible to gauge whether you actually like her and whether she actually likes you. At this point, you've hopefully made a connection already, and what money have you spent? Your gas money to get around? Your own drinks? Your own food? Yes. Have you spent money on her? No. Why? Because you didn't have to and it worked anyway.

 

So if I have any advice, it's get a lot of acquaintances. Haha.

 

I see, it makes quite a bit of sense. this is something I've always thought about trying, but every time someone invites me to something bigger than the few people I know I tend to say no. This is because I'm so shy, introverted, etc. It makes a lot of sense though. You can meet with people, socialize, learn about them just as if a date, but without paying for them and vice versa, just cover yourself.

[D-Lish]

Just so I'm clear: If a guy wants to split the bill and is a jerk about it, he's not second date material? Or any guy who wants to split the bill is not second date material?

 

 

I think I said, any guy that makes a big deal about splitting the bill isn't second date material.

 

I'll always offer on a first date to split the bill- but I'll assume that a guy that is into me will offer to pick up the first tab.

 

I make good money and I'm generous, With my last ex the first night we met He paid for our first 2 rounds, we went somewhere else and I paid for the next round- and he paid for the final round.

 

When we began dating, we went back and forth paying for dinner/dates.

[Hot Chick]

Maybe you can tell my girlfriend that I'm no fun to date. I'm sure she'd have a word or two for you

 

I'm not cheap. I just don't believe in spending money on people I don't know well enough or trust. The first actual date I had with my girlfriend was after we were facebook official. The way I see it, this is the way it should be, not the other way around. I expect you and most other women who post here to take exception with what I say, or at least conclude that I'm being too petty or analytical. In my opinion, all I've really done is leveled out the playing field. In early stages of romantic interaction, women have an advantage that society still reinforces despite the effects of the feminist movement. The advantage is that men are expected to woo the woman, frequently with paying for dates, buying her drinks, etc. My point is, you don't need any of that.

 

 

Like I said, if you have a connection with someone and it was meant to be, then it just works itself out.

but if you're with some woman who you are worrying on the first date if you should ask her out again because she MIGHT be texting another guy and you might be out a dinner and a movie on the second date, you are uptight and need to lighten up or you'll have a heart attack, lol.

[carhill]

Interesting twist which this thread, combined with the 'friend-zone' threads, caused me to remember: All of the friend-zone women let me pay for our 'interactions'. Only rarely, one hand's worth, did they ever reciprocate in the way that 'friends' do. This was one more 'sign' that we were 'dating' as opposed to 'friend-zoning'. LS, if nothing else, is a wonderful tool to help me remember what I had forgotten.

 

Nowadays, I spend my money on good friends who have proven themselves to be loving and loyal and leave the dating to others. Hope it works out for them.

[Hot Chick]

It almost seems like if it becomes a contest (making sure we are on the same "playing field" which brings to mind a game) then it takes all the fun and point of dating.

5 years ago I was seeing a man for about a year and we went to Europe for a 2 week trip. We planned on spending the trip fifty/fifty, and I provided the plane ticket on top of that for him with frequent flier miles. He did buy a few dinners, but in the end, I ended up about spending $800 more(rental cars, etc. all went on my credit card.) When he realized I was paying a lot more than he was on the trip, he said "I will pay you back." (I did not bring it up. He was in a situation where it was more difficult for him to pay.) So we came back from Europe and we dated for 5 more months, and he continued to bring up that he would pay me back for the extra money I spent on the trip. Again, I never brought it up. We broke up, and I never received the cash, it bothered me a little that he didn't make good on his promise to pay me back. However, we broke up and I never brought it up, never asked him about it, never let it bother me about the money, more about that he did not do as he promised. I guess you could say we were on "different playing fields." I just thought of it as "I had a fabulous trip with a man I loved (at the time), I can cross off traveling with a man you love to Europe off my bucket list." I could sully it with a bitter memory of being out $800 but who really cares? 5 years later...I really don't and hope he's doing well!

I think the OP's way of thinking "tit for tat" and "total equality, every penny accounted for, and she better pay, especially if she is mutidating because if i put out $40 for our dinner then this is just a cruel and unjust world" is just a sad, and angry way of looking at dating.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Hot Chick

[TheBigQuestion]

I see, it makes quite a bit of sense. this is something I've always thought about trying, but every time someone invites me to something bigger than the few people I know I tend to say no. This is because I'm so shy, introverted, etc. It makes a lot of sense though. You can meet with people, socialize, learn about them just as if a date, but without paying for them and vice versa, just cover yourself.

 

Exactly. The main "teachable moment" that emerges from this whole thread is: cultivate diverse interests. Meet people involved in said interests who may be more adept at being social than you. Befriend said people. Force yourself to attend get-togethers to which you are invited even if you feel anxious. Reap the rewards.

 

As far as my "scorecard" from January 2009 to January 2011, when I got the ol' ball and chain :

 

Three FWBs.

FWB 1 - fairly attractive friend of a girl one of my friends was dating, but not very bright (actively told me she was intimidated by my use of the word "vehemently" and other "big words").

FWB 2 - average looking. Nurse. Very sweet girl. Eventually became a good friend.

FWB 3 - very attractive Victoria's Secret sales associate/aspiring teacher.

 

One failed pseudo-relationship with a very attractive veterinary student. Failed for reasons that had nothing to do with me paying/not paying. Plenty of threads and posts from that era made on this board were about her. Back then I made the observation that she had actually spent more money on me despite screwing me over. I delighted in said observation.

 

Two one night stands, one with a very attractive actuary and another was a drunken mistake I'd prefer to forget. A few random hookups, most notably with a very attractive girl who went on to do some semi-legit modeling. Totally batsh** insane though, and a bit too young for me.

 

And finally, my current girlfriend who I love very much. Attractive, confident, and more intelligent than 99% of the population (certified true. I've seen the paperwork).

 

If a shy, only-barely-above-average-looking dude like me can do that in a matter of 2 years, deciding on my own terms who was dating material and who wasn't, without spending a dime more than I damn well pleased, could achieve this, anyone can. I didn't do it on purpose. It wasn't a conscious effort. But it happened, and I figured it was worth sharing.

[TheBigQuestion]

It almost seems like if it becomes a contest (making sure we are on the same "playing field" which brings to mind a game) then it takes all the fun and point of dating.

5 years ago I was seeing a man for about a year and we went to Europe for a 2 week trip. We planned on spending the trip fifty/fifty, and I provided the plane ticket on top of that for him with frequent flier miles. He did buy a few dinners, but in the end, I ended up about spending $800 more(rental cars, etc. all went on my credit card.) When he realized I was paying a lot more than he was on the trip, he said "I will pay you back." (I did not bring it up. He was in a situation where it was more difficult for him to pay.) So we came back from Europe and we dated for 5 more months, and he continued to bring up that he would pay me back for the extra money I spent on the trip. Again, I never brought it up. We broke up, and I never received the cash, it bothered me a little that he didn't make good on his promise to pay me back. However, we broke up and I never brought it up, never asked him about it, never let it bother me about the money, more about that he did not do as he promised. I guess you could say we were on "different playing fields." I just thought of it as "I had a fabulous trip with a man I loved (at the time), I can cross off traveling with a man you love to Europe off my bucket list." I could sully it with a bitter memory of being out $800 but who really cares? 5 years later...I really don't and hope he's doing well!

I think the OP's way of thinking "tit for tat" and "total equality, every penny accounted for, and she better pay, especially if she is mutidating because if i put out $40 for our dinner then this is just a cruel and unjust world" is just a sad, and angry way of looking at dating.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but you fail to realize that I didn't really plan any of this. This is a retrospective analysis and nothing more.

 

You can call it a sad, angry way of looking at dating. Any time in my adult dating life, the times I've been sad or angry about dating have never had anything to do with money. In the present day, I'm happy as a pig in sh** (or pig in mud? I don't know my similies and metaphors too well nowadays). So speak for yourself.

[Hot Chick]

your original post comes off as really angry and bitter. you seem like really an uptight person. Let go! it's just money! lol This is my retrospective analysis - get the cork out of your a++ and just have fun and enjoy dating and life!

[TheBigQuestion]

A guy who makes a fuss about paying is a turn-off. I wouldn't let a guy buy me a meal if I know I don't want to spend more time with him. That's mean.

 

That's the right attitude to have, but plenty of young women (dare I say a majority?) do not share this attitude. Many young women love the rush and ego boost they get from getting free drinks at the bar or club, they boast about having "free meals" on dates, regardless of whether they actually want to see the guy again, and so forth. I'm saying there's a way for men to refuse to feed into that type of system and that it doesn't take a social butterfly or player to do it.

[Imageiko]

It's not the amount of money that matters it's the gesture. If you're that concerned about the money nobody says you have to do dinner and drinks for the first date. Coffee and a walk in the park is a decent first date and if you pay for the whole thing it won't run you more than $10-15. Cheapness is a big turn off for me and that's what you come off as if you make a big deal out of any bill let alone the first date.

[TheBigQuestion]

It's not the amount of money that matters it's the gesture. If you're that concerned about the money nobody says you have to do dinner and drinks for the first date. Coffee and a walk in the park is a decent first date and if you pay for the whole thing it won't run you more than $10-15. Cheapness is a big turn off for me and that's what you come off as if you make a big deal out of any bill let alone the first date.

 

I'm far from cheap. There's a difference between being cheap and choosing wisely who to spend on. But again, I don't expect you to be able to make that distinction, because the world has conditioned you to have an unfavorable kneejerk reaction to anything I say on this matter.

[Imageiko]

I'm far from cheap. There's a difference between being cheap and choosing wisely who to spend on.

 

That's fair. Just go with the coffee first date then. Just as effective to get to know one another.

 

If you're trying to change the roots of guys/girls paying I wish you luck cause it's going to be a frustrating up hill battle.

[Voldar]

Exactly. The main "teachable moment" that emerges from this whole thread is: cultivate diverse interests. Meet people involved in said interests who may be more adept at being social than you. Befriend said people. Force yourself to attend get-togethers to which you are invited even if you feel anxious. Reap the rewards.

 

As far as my "scorecard" from January 2009 to January 2011, when I got the ol' ball and chain :

 

Three FWBs.

FWB 1 - fairly attractive friend of a girl one of my friends was dating, but not very bright (actively told me she was intimidated by my use of the word "vehemently" and other "big words").

FWB 2 - average looking. Nurse. Very sweet girl. Eventually became a good friend.

FWB 3 - very attractive Victoria's Secret sales associate/aspiring teacher.

 

One failed pseudo-relationship with a very attractive veterinary student. Failed for reasons that had nothing to do with me paying/not paying. Plenty of threads and posts from that era made on this board were about her. Back then I made the observation that she had actually spent more money on me despite screwing me over. I delighted in said observation.

 

Two one night stands, one with a very attractive actuary and another was a drunken mistake I'd prefer to forget. A few random hookups, most notably with a very attractive girl who went on to do some semi-legit modeling. Totally batsh** insane though, and a bit too young for me.

 

And finally, my current girlfriend who I love very much. Attractive, confident, and more intelligent than 99% of the population (certified true. I've seen the paperwork).

 

If a shy, only-barely-above-average-looking dude like me can do that in a matter of 2 years, deciding on my own terms who was dating material and who wasn't, without spending a dime more than I damn well pleased, could achieve this, anyone can. I didn't do it on purpose. It wasn't a conscious effort. But it happened, and I figured it was worth sharing.

 

Well that's good to know, I've only ever asked two girls out. Both said yes, the first nothing happened. The second I took out on a date an drove us there, paid and everything, then asked her if she'd like to go out again. She said yes. However it was downhill from there, and in the end she pretended we went out as friends and "didn't know it was a date". So from that point I've had trouble wanting to ask girls out again and pay for them if this is the way we act now. I would have taken "I just don't feel that way about you." so much better than a pretend.

 

But it doesn't really matter. It's what has had me think about social circles versus trying to ask girls out and paying for them and then getting written off. Not that I don't want to show initiative and pay for someone, but at 22 (in 10 days! ), I am about to finish college and trying to move out, I don't have the money to be spending on girls if they are just going to shove off after the first date.

 

So it's good to know it's possible. Thanks for sharing.

[TheBigQuestion]

That's fair. Just go with the coffee first date then. Just as effective to get to know one another.

 

If you're trying to change the roots of guys/girls paying I wish you luck cause it's going to be a frustrating up hill battle.

 

I don't have the time or energy to become an activist for this sort of thing. I just think it's silly. Why? Because there are plenty of women out there who, while simultaneously proclaiming to believe the tenets of feminism and gender equality, get butthurt, confused, and/or disqualify a guy based on whether or not he pays for her early on, and if he does, whether or not he has spent enough. At the same time, it's very rare for a man to have any such complaint about a woman. With equality comes drawbacks, dear friends. No one should be permitted to have their cake and eat it too.

[calvinabram]

I don't have the time or energy to become an activist for this sort of thing. I just think it's silly. Why? Because there are plenty of women out there who, while simultaneously proclaiming to believe the tenets of feminism and gender equality, get butthurt, confused, and/or disqualify a guy based on whether or not he pays for her early on, and if he does, whether or not he has spent enough. At the same time, it's very rare for a man to have any such complaint about a woman. With equality comes drawbacks, dear friends. No one should be permitted to have their cake and eat it too.

 

I agree with your assesment... albeit, I have no issue with paying, when I deem the time I do feel indifferent to women who tout the feminist ideology, however expect the chivalrous male. I am for equality and equal rights on everything. The woman doesn't have to meet me 50/50 or pay 3o percent of the time, but she has to pay and at the amount I pay.