Are you Mr Friendzone?

[LittleTiger]

And before you get the impression, I'm not a creeper.

 

I have no wish to damage your ego somedude81 and obviously I don't know you personally, but who says you're not?

 

You say you've had many women friends? When? Would you care to define what you mean by 'friendship'?

 

From your posts on LS it appears you have one female 'friend' who says she's asexual and not interested in a sexual relationship with anyone (including you) and yet you are continually hanging on to some pointless hope that she will eventually have sex with you. That's not real friendship.

 

Friendship is about enjoying somebody's company for the pleasure of just their company. Having fun, doing stuff together, talking, laughing, relaxing - all without any ulterior motive, without any expectations or hopes of anything more, without 'thinking' or 'wishing' or 'imagining' something beyond friendship.

 

Friendship is about trust, companionship and sharing - it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sex!

[carhill]

I agree that socialization plays a part...but only to a point. As they say, fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me. Getting burned once or twice because you are naturally a naive and trusting person is one thing...but getting burned twenty times and still not getting the point is something else entirely. Anyone who falls in the latter category is a chump, whether they like it or not.

You had some really good points until you resorted to name-calling. The purpose of this forum is to learn and share and discuss. Calling fellow posters names, even by inference, is a site violation.

 

My 'burned' record is still under ten but there were some monumental ones within that group. It was those who taught me the 'dickinsider' practice of dealing with women. Being socialized to respect and trust women did not help at all. I smack my father's grave for that. He was a poor role model for relations with modern women, as was religious schooling.

 

In retrospect, my most grievous error was not adopting the more generalized attitude regarding women that I often see on these forums, especially by young men. I took each one as an individual case and, if burned, said OK, it was that one, without inferring a wider behavioral set to all women and changing my behaviors globally, ergo giving each ensuing potential the benefit of the doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt opened the door for repetition, something which, by my early 30's, I saw as a definite error.

 

Additionally, and I see it in the stories of some of the young men on the forum and can relate to it, I largely had the selfishness and ego-centrism socialized out of what is natural human nature. Most people rebel against that socialization, or never receive it, and look to the wider human race to fill their personal needs. That's largely never been a feature of my life. When dealing with the wider world, such a person must erect strong boundaries to keep from being taken advantage of, something a more selfish person never experiences, since they are inevitably always looking out only for their best interests and how others may serve them. Anyone who doesn't serve them is dismissed and they move on. This was a feature I came to see as a commonality in the Hoovers I met along life's path, some of them being women. The women were tricky because they had the additional weapon of their sexuality and sexual power to manipulate those who had something they wanted.

 

We see the reverse with men taking advantage of trusting and generous women, with anecdotes often shared on these forums, with the main difference being that the women receive care and support along with the challenge versus the men largely receiving 'man up', 'grow some balls', 'don't be a chump' and similar 'advice'. For those of us men who weren't socialized with a fist or a belt or a bat and taught that pain, whether inflicted or received, is the proper 'male' solution, we don't respond too well to verbal bats. Well, we respond, but not always in predictable ways.

[somedude81]

I have no wish to damage your ego somedude81 and obviously I don't know you personally, but who says you're not?

 

You say you've had many women friends? When? Would you care to define what you mean by 'friendship'?

 

From your posts on LS it appears you have one female 'friend' who says she's asexual and not interested in a sexual relationship with anyone (including you) and yet you are continually hanging on to some pointless hope that she will eventually have sex with you. That's not real friendship.

 

Friendship is about enjoying somebody's company for the pleasure of just their company. Having fun, doing stuff together, talking, laughing, relaxing - all without any ulterior motive, without any expectations or hopes of anything more, without 'thinking' or 'wishing' or 'imagining' something beyond friendship.

 

Friendship is about trust, companionship and sharing - it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sex!

I'm 30 years old. Just because I only have one female 'friend' now, does not mean that it has always been this way. Friendships come and go and there are differing levels.

 

What she and I have isn't even that close of a friendship compared to what I've had in the past with other girls.

 

Having fun, doing stuff together, talking, laughing, relaxing - all without any ulterior motive

What do you call that but with an ulterior motive? Because I've done all of those with my female friends even though I may have not told some of them of my desire.

 

Heh, at least the current girl knows I want her. So nothing is hidden

[Feelsgoodman]

You had some really good points until you resorted to name-calling. The purpose of this forum is to learn and share and discuss. Calling fellow posters names, even by inference, is a site violation.

I don't recall calling you names...It seems that you read my post (which wasn't addressed to anyone in particular), then figured that it applied to your situation and decided to get offended.

 

My 'burned' record is still under ten but there were some monumental ones within that group. It was those who taught me the 'dickinsider' practice of dealing with women. Being socialized to respect and trust women did not help at all. I smack my father's grave for that. He was a poor role model for relations with modern women, as was religious schooling.

I used to blame my dad for all sorts of things...he is a bad role model for relationships (of any kind) with human beings in general. I don't do that anymore. At some point, you have to take responsibility for your own screw ups...blaming parents is just counterproductive. They are a product of their environment too....as were their parents.

 

Additionally, and I see it in the stories of some of the young men on the forum and can relate to it, I largely had the selfishness and ego-centrism socialized out of what is natural human nature. Most people rebel against that socialization, or never receive it, and look to the wider human race to fill their personal needs. That's largely never been a feature of my life. When dealing with the wider world, such a person must erect strong boundaries to keep from being taken advantage of, something a more selfish person never experiences, since they are inevitably always looking out only for their best interests and how others may serve them. Anyone who doesn't serve them is dismissed and they move on. This was a feature I came to see as a commonality in the Hoovers I met along life's path, some of them being women. The women were tricky because they had the additional weapon of their sexuality and sexual power to manipulate those who had something they wanted.

I see where you're coming from. Sheep get slaughtered...that's the unfortunate reality of life.

[phineas]

This thread is incredibly sad and reading it is like watching 'the blind leading the blind'!

 

You can't choose whether to be friend-zoned or not. You meet a girl, she's either attracted to you or she isn't. If she isn't you're never going to be more than her friend - no matter what you do.

 

What's sad is that some of you seem to completely discount any kind of relationship with a girl if there's no chance of having sex with her? What exactly is wrong with friendship with someone of the opposite sex?

 

People are people!. Despite what many think, we're actually the same species, regardless of gender - we can all be friends and just enjoy each other's company for the sheer pleasure of it.

 

There are benefits to having friends of the opposite sex which have nothing to do with wanting 'attention' or 'ego boosts' or anything else that's mentioned here:

 

1) It's great practice for learning to relax and enjoy the company of people of the opposite sex - especially if you're nervous or socially awkward in any way.

 

2) It's a great way to learn about the opposite sex - women are a really good source of information about other women and men are a good source of information about other men.

 

3) Even if your friend isn't interested in you sexually, one of their friends might be - social networking in the real world - instead of FB!!!

 

If a woman says she wants to be your friend - congratulations! It probably means you're actually a great guy, fun to be with, interesting company and she 'likes' you as a human being. Rejecting her friendship just because she's not interested in having sex with you is incredibly foolish and short sighted and is 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'!

 

Everyone should have friends of both sexes. It means you're a well balanced person who can relate to everybody and is easy to get along with. A person who is open to all kinds of relationships is far more likely to find someone special.

 

Little Tiger - what you are talking about is wonderful in theory but, it just rarely happens in practice.

 

I can care less if a woman doesn't want to have sex with me however I have yet to meet a woman that has been a true friend.

 

If a woman tells me she doesn't want to date I say cool & I hang out with her as friends. Plenty of other women out there & she may have friends I could meet plus she can help hook me up if we go out (like my other friends)

 

Except, women for the most part can't seem to handle the fact that a guy is ok with being just friends. If he aint gay, married or has a GF, (sometimes even if) they want the guys to want her even though she doesn't want them.

 

Every woman i've been just friends with crossed the "just friends" line and when I reciprocated they friendzoned me.

 

Acted like all of a sudden I was chasing them & wanted them & started playing games. Ignoring txts blowing me off ect.

 

I crap you not.

 

I'm not as eloquent as carhill but I agree with him.

I put women into two categories, those busting my nut & those at the bottom of my friendship / priority totem-pole because ALL of my friends have spent yrs having my back & someone new has to earn my friendship.

They don't go to the front of the line because they have a vagina, however many women seem to think they should.

[Wolf18]

I think the reason men don't like being completely platonic friends with women is the whole rejection element. Why would I want to be friends with someone who thinks i'm physically unattractive yet who loves my company? Let her fratboy boyfriend be good company.

 

When you let women friendzone you are essentially letting them have their cake and eat it to. She can **** Brad from the movie Extract yet also be intellectually stimulated and have fun with guys like me. If you like my person so much that you want to spend all your time with me and 15 minutes of your day having sex with your uncaring airhead boyfriend , that is simply a scheme I'm not content with .

 

If I had a steady girlfriend I wouldn't mind it so much, but when you're single and hopelessly so, the friend zone is truly the deepest bowel of hell.

 

And no, women rarely hook you up with their girlfriends. If they do, it's always the really fat one.

[Wolf18]

I'm not as eloquent as carhill but I agree with him.

I put women into two categories, those busting my nut & those at the bottom of my friendship / priority totem-pole because ALL of my friends have spent yrs having my back & someone new has to earn my friendship.

They don't go to the front of the line because they have a vagina, however many women seem to think they should.[/Quote]

 

Truly brilliant words.

 

I've gotten quite close to two females, one of them for 2 years. Her boyfriend who ignores her and just doesn't give a **** told her to delete me from her facebook one day, and she did it like a good obedient woman, despite me being the one who is always there for her to protect her when she gets in trouble or help her when shes in need. My male friends on the other hand, 2 of them who've been friends with me for 10 years and have always been with me through thick and thin would never cut me out just because their girlfriends whine about me (it's happened before).

 

The old cliche of Bros over Hos is always true. Those who dishonor this code are the lowest kind of imbecile. Women are just different, their male "friends" will always take the backseat when they have a boyfriend, even if they've known these male friends for years and the new boyfriend for 2 weeks.

[Feelsgoodman]

You can't choose whether to be friend-zoned or not. You meet a girl, she's either attracted to you or she isn't. If she isn't you're never going to be more than her friend - no matter what you do.

Yes, you can. If you express romantic interest in a woman and she doesn't reciprocate, you can (and should) chose to sever your association with her.

 

What's sad is that some of you seem to completely discount any kind of relationship with a girl if there's no chance of having sex with her? What exactly is wrong with friendship with someone of the opposite sex?

There is nothing sad about it. The only thing that's sad is the pathetic chumps (of either gender) who chose to torture themselves by staying "friends" with the object of their unrequited love (puke!)

 

That is not to say I am completely discounting non-sex based relationships with members of the opposite gender. There is nothing wrong with hanging out with members of the opposite gender provided you share some common interest (i.e. jogging, music, etc.) and there is no romantic attraction on either part.

 

However, such "friends" are really nothing more than activity partners. True friendship between men and women is rarely possible because men and women define friendship in vastly different terms. For men, a true friend is someone who will have your back in a fight (or in battle at a time of war)...someone who will risk his life to come to your rescue...someone you can rely on in a difficult situation. I can't see how a woman could possibly fulfil that role. When was the last time you heard of a woman risking her life to dave a male friend???

 

For women, friends are people you can gossip with, go shopping with, go clubbing with. Women are notoriously catty and would never help their friends at the expense of their own interests.

[laotzu]

I'm friends with girls who have S/O's, for a variety of reasons:

 

A. They give me rides to and from places I need to be, when I need to be there.

B. They invite me to get togethers and parties

C. They hook me up with friends of theirs that are available

D. They provide me with excellent advice on dating the opposite sex, and are frequently more intelligent than the boy-men I know.

 

Why would you restrict your friends to just one gender?

 

Now, I don't have any single friends who are girls that I can think of, though I would, and have in the past. I would not be friends with a girl who was single that I was romantically interested in, and in fact, have turned down invites from attached girls to hang out alone in the past, if I was interested in them. That's always a tough one, but I've literally said to them that I won't hang out with them alone while they have a BF.

[Feelsgoodman]

I'm friends with girls who have S/O's, for a variety of reasons:

 

A. They give me rides to and from places I need to be, when I need to be there.

B. They invite me to get togethers and parties

C. They hook me up with friends of theirs that are available

D. They provide me with excellent advice on dating the opposite sex, and are frequently more intelligent than the boy-men I know.

To call these women friends really cheapens the meaning of the word 'friendship'. They are not your friends...at best, they are just buddies. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but to me, a friend is someone that you actually care about. And I'm pretty sure you don't give a crap about these women, aside from the free "services" that they provide you with.

[laotzu]

To call these women friends really cheapens the meaning of the word 'friendship'. They are not your friends...at best, they are just buddies. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but to me, a friend is someone that you actually care about. And I'm pretty sure you don't give a crap about these women, aside from the free "services" that they provide you with.

 

That seems silly: I do the same things for them that they do for me. Friends do things for one another out of friendship; I was simply describing some objective reasons to have friends with someone of the opposite sex, other than wanting to **** them. These are all people I've drank with, fought with, made up with, drank with, laughed with, drank with...

[Feelsgoodman]

That seems silly: I do the same things for them that they do for me. Friends do things for one another out of friendship; I was simply describing some objective reasons to have friends with someone of the opposite sex, other than wanting to **** them. These are all people I've drank with, fought with, made up with, drank with, laughed with, drank with...

Not saying that you're doing something wrong...My point is that such "relationships" are not really friendship. I hate how casually people use the 'f-word' these days. A relationship that's born out of mutual benefit or convenience is not a friendship. You are just buddies.

 

A true friendship is just like a romantic relationship, minus the sexual aspect. A friend is someone you have a special bond with, care deeply about and love in a platonic way. I don't think such a relationship is truly possible between a man and a woman.

 

The kind of friendship you are describing (i.e. hanging out and getting drunk together without developing any real bonds), on the other hand, is not at all unusual between the opposite sexes.

[Woggle]

Having female friends is good but the things that get female friends and the things that attract women are often very much the opposite so having friends doesn't do a man much good if he wants to attract a woman.

[irc333]

Women who put men in the FZ are the men that could've been husband material for them or long term material.

 

Crazy backwards world, right?

[thatone]

 

In retrospect, my most grievous error was not adopting the more generalized attitude regarding women that I often see on these forums, especially by young men. I took each one as an individual case and, if burned, said OK, it was that one, without inferring a wider behavioral set to all women and changing my behaviors globally, ergo giving each ensuing potential the benefit of the doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt opened the door for repetition, something which, by my early 30's, I saw as a definite error.

 

 

agree completely, and not to brag but my repetition didn't go past one. i have a generally stereotypical thought process regarding the judgement of other people, so one was all it took. and the one ended inside of a month.

 

dating is a numbers game for men. you approach 10 women, 3 or 4 might get you a date, 1 out of the 10 might be worth a second date. the rest there's some glaring incompatibility with.

 

why, then, should i spend any free time whatsoever on one that there's no future with? applying that numbers principle, about 90%, i'd guess, of the women who friend zone men are doing so specifically to manipulate their husbands and boyfriends or have a male partner to do something with that the boyfriend or husband doesn't do. they can cry on someone else's shoulder and thereby not give any ground to their boyfriend in the drama that they've created. why would anyone want to be friends with such a person?

 

in my case the one i played along with in my early 20s was a pot smoker. boyfriend didn't like it. so after a couple weeks i'm thinking "hmmm, i buy lots of pot, she smokes it, i get nothing in return, how exactly am i better off?" the answer is pretty obvious.

 

and in that case as well as any other, again about 90% of the time, to dispel the often presented idea that "she'll help you meet women", the friend will not only refuse to set those friend zoned men up with single women they know. they will actively try to prevent those men from finding other women. because whatever they get from those men would then be limited at best, or cut off entirely at worst, if the man in question had a woman who didn't friend zone him.

 

so tell me, those women who defend the friend zone, what exactly do you do for men that you friend zone? i'm betting my 90% rule applies again, in that 90% of women do absolutely nothing to benefit those men they've 'befriended'.

 

and to eliminate potential replies that do not apply for the sake of brevity...

 

a) listening to their problems doesn't count, that's what my mom/grandmother/favorite aunt are for

b) activity partner doesn't count, he would probably rather be doing something with male friends

[motive2002]

bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum!!!

 

Mr. Friend-zone, bring me a dream

Make him the kindest, that I've ever seen.

Give him the rank, of my place-holder

And if he asks for sex, it's over!

 

Mr. Friend-zone, I'm so alone

My boyfriend never answers the phone

Please turn on your magic beam!

Mr. Friend zone send me a dweeb!

 

[ChessPieceFace]

You just contradicted your Seuss avatar quote. I don't like acting like most guys (machismo football types) and I don't like hanging around most guys. But according to you I have to do that to be a "real guy" and get women. I reject that advice. Quite frankly, I'd rather be myself and be alone than conform just to trick some girl into liking me.

[thatone]

You just contradicted your Seuss avatar quote. I don't like acting like most guys (machismo football types) and I don't like hanging around most guys. But according to you I have to do that to be a "real guy" and get women. I reject that advice. Quite frankly, I'd rather be myself and be alone than conform just to trick some girl into liking me.

 

i am the least macho man i know.

 

i don't work out. i walk a couple miles to counter my meager appetite, that's it. i am an avid football watcher, admittedly, but i never made it past pee-wee. too much work. i read every day. i don't drink beer. i just got rid of my truck because i don't need it, kept my 4 door sedan. i don't even cut the grass, i hire someone to do it. i don't hunt, fish, or shoot or any other such thing, i don't even own a gun.

 

i have no trouble getting dates.

 

being a man isn't about wearing a costume, it's all in your head.

[AHardDaysNight]

I have only been friendzoned once, and that ended up differently, because we DID end up as friends...since I found her so unattractive after she rejected me that I wouldn't date her in a million years now!

 

What usually happens when I get rejected with the "let's just be friends" is:

 

1.) she blows me off and I discover she didn't even want to be friends, case closed, I move on

2.) I lose interest in HER, she becomes like a friend, and we continue that friendship.

 

I had two instances in my life where the girl who was a friend used me as an emotional tampon. One of them was the girl that is now really my friend, and she doesn't do that anymore. Another instance is where this girl at work (who I was casual friends with) was always complaining about her boyfriend. Finally I lost my temper, said "why don't you stop complaining about it, then, and DO something?", and...needless to say, she never brought it up again.

[betterdeal]

So, apologize for desiring her? That makes even less sense.

 

Unless you mean, apologize for awkwardness caused by making a move uncomfortably. And this is, where it gets tricky. In theory I would agree, but what I found the harder way, is that when you bring awkwardness up later on, even if you mean to apologize, it may turn out that other person didn't really care, and by very bringing it up, you make them recall all this awkwardness which was in that moment. And this backfires on you.

 

I was thinking more of at the "time of discovery" i.e. when someone else finds out you did something. Such as when you make a pass at her, she declines, you say "Oops!" and that's it. Get back on track by putting it to bed, quickly.

 

A kiss is but a kiss.

[betterdeal]

This thread is incredibly sad and reading it is like watching 'the blind leading the blind'!

 

Charming! Look, if us guys want to chew the fat and talk about wimmin, can't you just let us?

 

Of course men and women being friends is a good thing.

 

This is about the women that men - who may or may not have female friends - would like to be more than just friends with. And even when dealing with the women who one is friends with, the emotional offloading is something that drags many men down. Men, generally, don't share feelings for hours on end, so this advice is moot when it comes to dealing with male friends who offload, because they generally don't.

 

Essentially, this is a thread about being assertive as a man who may be just a touch too respectful or lacking in self-confidence. And trust me, there is far more to attraction than first sight. It's more like quantum physics in that the way you interact affects the outcome. So saying "a woman is either attracted or not" is incomplete, misleading or just plain wrong: women, like men, can and do change their minds over time.

[betterdeal]

and in that case as well as any other, again about 90% of the time, to dispel the often presented idea that "she'll help you meet women", the friend will not only refuse to set those friend zoned men up with single women they know. they will actively try to prevent those men from finding other women. because whatever they get from those men would then be limited at best, or cut off entirely at worst, if the man in question had a woman who didn't friend zone him.

 

Look, if you end up being like brother and sister then yes she will put you in contact with more women and it does work. But you do have to take part too i.e. be the brother part of the arrangement instead of some fawning sycophant whose spending all his time looking for an "in" (where in this case, "in" means great big flashing neon sign, red carpet, key to hotel room and a note that says "please f*ck me silly")

 

You can look to find an advantage in every situation in life. If you can't find it after a reasonable period, cut your losses and move on. You meet a girl, you make a pass at her, she turns you down, you apologise for making her feel awkward, you move on. You see her again, you're on good terms. She invites you to a gig / party / art exhibition/ barbecue, you go. Not as her consort, as a single, available man whose going to enjoy himself. You meet men and women, first girl tells them you're dependable / kind / funny, there's your character reference right there. Somewhere in that crowd are some women who are feeling frisky or bubbly at that time and they see this guy whose having fun, is friendly and comes with a good reference... all this and you haven't even tried.

 

It happens. If you let it happen.

[NeoGen85]

I guess I'm the chump.

 

At the same time, every women that I've dated have been friends of mine before the relationship occurred. So my approach in today's dating game is definitely unorthodox.

[Wolf18]

agree completely, and not to brag but my repetition didn't go past one. i have a generally stereotypical thought process regarding the judgement of other people, so one was all it took. and the one ended inside of a month.

 

dating is a numbers game for men. you approach 10 women, 3 or 4 might get you a date, 1 out of the 10 might be worth a second date. the rest there's some glaring incompatibility with.

 

why, then, should i spend any free time whatsoever on one that there's no future with? applying that numbers principle, about 90%, i'd guess, of the women who friend zone men are doing so specifically to manipulate their husbands and boyfriends or have a male partner to do something with that the boyfriend or husband doesn't do. they can cry on someone else's shoulder and thereby not give any ground to their boyfriend in the drama that they've created. why would anyone want to be friends with such a person?

 

in my case the one i played along with in my early 20s was a pot smoker. boyfriend didn't like it. so after a couple weeks i'm thinking "hmmm, i buy lots of pot, she smokes it, i get nothing in return, how exactly am i better off?" the answer is pretty obvious.

 

and in that case as well as any other, again about 90% of the time, to dispel the often presented idea that "she'll help you meet women", the friend will not only refuse to set those friend zoned men up with single women they know. they will actively try to prevent those men from finding other women. because whatever they get from those men would then be limited at best, or cut off entirely at worst, if the man in question had a woman who didn't friend zone him.

 

so tell me, those women who defend the friend zone, what exactly do you do for men that you friend zone? i'm betting my 90% rule applies again, in that 90% of women do absolutely nothing to benefit those men they've 'befriended'.

 

and to eliminate potential replies that do not apply for the sake of brevity...

 

a) listening to their problems doesn't count, that's what my mom/grandmother/favorite aunt are for

b) activity partner doesn't count, he would probably rather be doing something with male friends

 

 

CAN I GET ANOTHA AMEN!

 

LOL women use their "friend zone" male friends as leverage against men they take seriously (their boyfriend). "Oh you won't take me ice skating?! Well *insert shameless dweeb* will!

[LittleTiger]

What do you call that but with an ulterior motive? Because I've done all of those with my female friends even though I may have not told some of them of my desire.

 

Heh, at least the current girl knows I want her. So nothing is hidden

 

If the girl doesn't know, I call it creepy!