Are you Mr Friendzone?

[betterdeal]

Good advice from http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt126195.html

 

I have a list of things here which are good ways to tell if guys are usually put in the friend zone.

 

You are often mr Friend zone if....

 

1. You have more female friends than male.(I'm talking a huge difference here, not 60/40) You are seen as "one of the girls" and put straight into the friend zone. Hetrosexual women do not want to date one of their girlfriends.

 

2. Girls always offload thier problems to you. Friend zone. You don't do this to people you're trying to attract to "date". I would never go upto a guy I am interested in in any way shape or form romantically and go on about my problems. You don't sell a car by telling people it's broken. Doing this is pretty clear to me that the girl is not interested in you romantically.

 

Things that could possibly help avoid being "friend zoned"

 

1. Try and broarden your target friends groups a bit. Get to know some other guys, do some guy things. Have your own life and your own interests. If you aren't into sports matches or whatever, video games is a big one, just hanging out, going out for a meal and a movie etc. People of the same sex are not *that* scary.

 

2. Make your intentions clear straight away. If you don't know the person too well, you're not risking a "friendship" because there is not one! By pretending to be friends with someone you actually want to date makes it harder in the long run.

 

If anyone else has stuff to add, feel free!

[carhill]

One possible fly in the ointment is exemplified by the oft-repeated scenario on LS where people, often work colleagues, begin to share personal 'stuff' with each other and such sharing develops into a EMA, with one or both parties abrogating their marriage in the process. That 'stuff' is often marital 'problems'.

 

IMO, perhaps more so with women than men, it's how she *feels* when she shares her 'brokenness' than the actual process itself. Some use the 'wounded bird' maneuver with great skill and dexterity, as much for ensnaring a potential partner they desire for sex as for emotional stroking and tampon disposal.

 

Another potential fly is the long-time supposed female friend who becomes more sexual, exhibiting overtly romantic and sexual behaviors. I recall one who slowly ramped it up for a couple years. What I did was watch how she behaved with me, in public, compared to her husband. Interesting. After she used her friend, her best friend's husband, to 'test the waters', she's now getting a divorce and has a new boyfriend (not me).

 

Myself, having married a 'masker', when I get a whiff that a woman has masked her brokenness to 'get' me, whether as a friend or lover, I'm gone. IMO, a healthy woman should be able to accept all aspects of herself and seek a partner who accepts them as well. That she would have to mask who she is, as one example by maintaining that everything is rosy and romantic and never having a problem, is a red flag to me. I loathe 'dating faces'.

 

What I've learned from the decades as Mr. Friendzone or Mr. Brother is that, in nearly every case, the woman did me an enormous favor by teaching me about the unhealthiness which some women carry around with them. That a woman would use another person as a receptacle for her trash says a lot about who she is. It's great information.

 

 

My first and best example occurred during a markedly high point in my life, where I was successful in business and friendships and had a lot to give. That was the one who ramped it, sexually and emotionally, up for a couple months before dropping the small problem of her being married.

 

My comments may seem off-topic but, as someone with vast experience with this and with the kinds of women who 'friend-zone' men, I know the variety of psychologies involved.

 

 

Essentially, it comes down to this, and I apologize to the women in advance for the tone of it. Until and unless my penis is in your vagina, there's really nothing between us that I consider healthy as a potential intimate and romantic partner. Even then, a lifetime of experience has left me a bit skeptical. I need a really compelling reason to circumstantially prioritize you over the very real friends who have loved and supported me in my life. Playing your games and listening to your problems doesn't get me there, nor does a little sex. Being married taught me a lot about women, especially about married women and/or women who have the skills to be married.

 

Expect that a female, if a real potential 'friend', will proactively exhibit interest, care and support in that wonderful way women have the capacity to do, and that it will grow over time. Delineate authentic care from 'feminine wiles' which can imbue the *feeling* of care without there really being any. IOW, the use of sexual flirtation and/or innuendo to inspire feelings in the man that she really cares about him. If experiencing a woman who is a real potential friend, decide clearly whether that friendship can be healthy, meaning you as a man have no sexual attraction to her, and then proceed. If other, accept that incompatibility and move on. She's not going to, in nearly every case (and in every case in my life experience) grow sexual feelings for you over time. She may grow intimate feelings for you but never sexual and romantic feelings.

 

Note whether or not the woman has healthy and satisfying female friendships. Be extremely wary of those women who talk other women down and have few or no female friends. You're far more likely to get friendzoned by such a woman.

 

I haven't read any books. I've lived it, the school of hard knocks, for my 52 on this rock. Everything is real experience. It's nothing I'm proud of. It is what it is.

[grkBoy]

I agree with the OP.

 

For me, one big thing is to REJECT THE FRIENDZONE.

 

So you ask out this girl on a date, and she says "let's just be friends", just POLITELY tell her "no thanks" and simply say you want to date her, not be just a friend.

 

NOW...if she then hits you with the usual song and dance of how you could fathom being her boyfriend when you won't be her friend, just reply that you know better...that she would never date friends. Say you can see it's clear you're not what she wants in a man, but you're not going to waste your time hanging around when the thing you want is to be her boyfriend.

 

Be strong. She'll play it off like it's "your loss", but I guarantee she'll also be chronically single or unable to maintain a RL. It speaks volumes on her insane standards and how many good men she's probably FZed and bypassed when she should try dating them.

 

The start of getting out of the FZ is to reject it. Accept that by being in her FZ you will NEVER be her boyfriend...not unless she's knocked up and the men she really wants won't date her now.

 

Yes there are the VERY FEW who actually date their friends, but too many women now have been wired to see male friends as "undateable".

 

So don't waste your time.

[somedude81]

I'm definitely a Mr. Friendzone. It's basically my life story.

 

But no, I've never actually been the guy that girls dump their issues on.

2. Make your intentions clear straight away. If you don't know the person too well, you're not risking a "friendship" because there is not one! By pretending to be friends with someone you actually want to date makes it harder in the long run.

It's not really that I was pretending to be their friend as I always enjoyed their company and considered them a real friend.

 

Though having my intentions misread was a common problem. I thought I was being obvious by inviting girls to do stuff with me. But after spending time on this forum I've heard a lot of women say, "I go out to dinner and movies with my guy friends. How am I supposed to know that this other guy likes me?"

 

I guess that means I'm going to have to start saying 'date' when I want a girl to spend time with me, or she will just think I want to be friends.

[betterdeal]

carhill, sure, I've experienced the exceptions to the rules too, but generally, what that woman wrote as general hints is pretty good for younger men relating to younger women.

 

somedude81, sometimes you just need to go by the rule of "don't ask, just apologise" - that is to say, do something that is unambiguously making a pass at her and apologise if it doesn't go down too well. That can be going in for a cheeky kiss when on the dance-floor, or it can be saying you fancy her / find her interesting / would she like to make out with you / how great an arse she has. Which is sort of what grkBoy is saying except I'm saying you can have a go at redirecting the relationship in the direction you want it to go in.

[somedude81]

don't ask, just apologise

Wow, that's a really cool way of looking at things.

 

(no sarcasm)

[carhill]

carhill, sure, I've experienced the exceptions to the rules too, but generally, what that woman wrote as general hints is pretty good for younger men relating to younger women.

 

Yes, I would agree, and added my comments to address the very real nuances of the process which I've unfortunately discovered in my lifetime. The not so good news is that this dynamic does not die with age, rather becomes more honed and skilled as such women age. Beware.

[grkBoy]

sometimes you just need to go by the rule of "don't ask, just apologise" - that is to say, do something that is unambiguously making a pass at her and apologise if it doesn't go down too well. That can be going in for a cheeky kiss when on the dance-floor, or it can be saying you fancy her / find her interesting / would she like to make out with you / how great an arse she has.

 

I don't agree with this. A real ladies man once told me to never apologize for anything that you didn't do. So you make a move, she pushes you away, then you don't have to be a jerk about it...but don't apologize for making a move.

 

Girls should know better that most guys are going to try to be more to them than be "just friends". It's not saying guys can't happily be friends with a girl and nothing more...but most guys are going to try for more.

 

I just say that if you established that it's "just friends" then accept that you're in the FZ and it won't change to more. However, you meet a girl, take her out several times and pay (with her never offering money), perhaps other things like holding hands and cuddling happen...then take the risk. If she suddenly flakes and says she just wanted to be friends...move on. Seriously. Don't apologize, because she's been allowing things to act like it's dating until now.

 

If she acts offended, then shrug it off and tell her then you both had different intentions and thus it's time to say goodbye, as you're wanting more than "just friends".

 

Seriously...the only way men show real strength is to stand by their convictions. If we apologize and pander on every little thing we try, then we come off as weak and thus end up FZed while guys who never apologize get laid and get girlfriends.

[OnyxSnowfall]

I don't agree with this. A real ladies man once told me to never apologize for anything that you didn't do. So you make a move, she pushes you away, then you don't have to be a jerk about it...but don't apologize for making a move.

 

isn't that a contradiction? He's *done* something if he's made a move... that is, he's made a move.

 

Although, I agree that apologizing *can* be off-putting. There's a fine-line in there... it really just depends upon the circumstances and the present level of attraction. I've been off-put by arrogance / adhering to said convictions and sometimes more attracted... likewise I've been off-put by apologies and sometimes more attracted.

 

Ultimately it's just better to take a risk and find out. If it's obviously not taken well, an apology could be in order. If it's mostly indiscernible/just not received well, perhaps it's best to remain cool and confident about it.

[betterdeal]

Jeez, you don't need to grovel on your knees begging forgiveness. Imagine you bump into someone on the street - no harm done is a light-hearted apology. Same thing. You're making a big deal of it - that's the problem. Being good natured and asserting yourself needn't been either or.

 

It's not how you fall; it's how you land that matters. Practice landing on your feet.

Edited September 19, 2011 by betterdeal

[Feelsgoodman]

I can honestly say that I've never been friend-zoned in my life...not even once. "Friend-zoning" is not something that a girl can do to you unilaterally...you have to be willing participant in that humiliating act.

 

If a girl doesn't seem too keen, simply don't contact her any more. If she initiates contact fishing for attention, ignore her. Is she calls you to talk about her problems, tell her that you're not her BF and don't have to listen to that crap. Don't be her emotional tampon.

 

Women need male "friends" for a variety of reasons...and none of them have anything to with a desire for genuine friendship. Some women like to collect male "fanclubs", as they feel that it increases their status with other women. Some are attention whores who crave validation from everyone, including guys they are not attracted to. Some figure that having male buddies can have practical benefits....such as when they need someone to help them move or fix something around the house...for free.

 

The term "friend zone" is really is misnomer. It should be more appropriately called the "chump zone", as you have to be a chump to get trapped in this zone, by definition.

[grkBoy]

Women need male "friends" for a variety of reasons...and none of them have anything to with a desire for genuine friendship. Some women like to collect male "fanclubs", as they feel that it increases their status with other women. Some are attention whores who crave validation from everyone, including guys they are not attracted to. Some figure that having male buddies can have practical benefits....such as when they need someone to help them move or fix something around the house...for free.

 

The term "friend zone" is really is misnomer. It should be more appropriately called the "chump zone", as you have to be a chump to get trapped in this zone, by definition.

 

I agree. I used to work at a club, and one night I went with one of the cocktail waitresses to another club after we got off work. I made no intentions, but was trying to get to know her a little and see if I could pursue more.

 

When we got there, I found she had a boyfriend. No big deal since I didn't get any attachment or anything, but what was hilarious were the seven other guy friends who all showed up. They all knew her boyfriend, but I could tell every one of them, including what looked like the boyfriend's best friend, were all waiting for her to break up with said boyfriend so they could get a shot.

 

I didn't "get in line"...but I always remember that night as an example of the "fan club".

 

I usually like to use the term "pseudo boyfriend" for the guy friend she does everything with...except intimate stuff.

[carhill]

The term "friend zone" is really is misnomer. It should be more appropriately called the "chump zone", as you have to be a chump to get trapped in this zone, by definition.

So, tell me about your last marriage. I'm curious about how you've avoided being manipulated by women. How about your childhood? Have a good one? Taught to trust people? Or, was it eat dog eat dog? A lot of who we are is how we are socialized.

 

I don't appreciate being called a chump. Straight up.

Edited September 19, 2011 by carhill

[rafallus]

Never apologize for making a move. It makes you look like spineless wimp, who doesn't even know, what he wants.

 

It's like you want her one second > make a move > she rejects you > you go "sorry, didn't mean to", like you didn't want her, which is obviously not the case.

[betterdeal]

Never apologize for making a move. It makes you look like spineless wimp, who doesn't even know, what he wants.

 

It's like you want her one second > make a move > she rejects you > you go "sorry, didn't mean to", like you didn't want her, which is obviously not the case.

 

I repeat: there's more than one way to apologise. A apology can be delivered verbally or non-verbally with a glint in your eye or a self-deprecating smile and itself be a pleasant thing, and can win over hearts and minds. It does not have to be a sign of weakness; rather it can be an sign of respect for someone else's decision.

 

You don't have to lie, as you suggest. The truth is good enough.

[Feelsgoodman]

So, tell me about your last marriage. I'm curious about how you've avoided being manipulated by women. How about your childhood? Have a good one? Taught to trust people? Or, was it eat dog eat dog? A lot of who we are is how we are socialized.

 

I don't appreciate being called a chump. Straight up.

Never been married, though I don't understand what you're getting at (unless you are suggesting that every married man got tricked into marriage). My childhood was a decent one, all things considered. Taught to trust people? Not really. One thing I realized early on in life is that learning from other people's mistakes is a lot less painful than personal trial and error.

 

I agree that socialization plays a part...but only to a point. As they say, fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me. Getting burned once because you are naturally a naive and trusting person is one thing...but getting burned twenty times and still not getting the point is something else entirely. Anyone who falls in the latter category is a chump, whether they like it or not.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Feelsgoodman

[rafallus]

I repeat: there's more than one way to apologise. A apology can be delivered verbally or non-verbally with a glint in your eye or a self-deprecating smile and itself be a pleasant thing, and can win over hearts and minds. It does not have to be a sign of weakness; rather it can be an sign of respect for someone else's decision.

 

You don't have to lie, as you suggest. The truth is good enough.

So, apologize for desiring her? That makes even less sense.

 

Unless you mean, apologize for awkwardness caused by making a move uncomfortably. And this is, where it gets tricky. In theory I would agree, but what I found the harder way, is that when you bring awkwardness up later on, even if you mean to apologize, it may turn out that other person didn't really care, and by very bringing it up, you make them recall all this awkwardness which was in that moment. And this backfires on you.

[OnyxSnowfall]

So, apologize for desiring her? That makes even less sense.

 

Unless you mean, apologize for awkwardness caused by making a move uncomfortably. And this is, where it gets tricky. In theory I would agree, but what I found the harder way, is that when you bring awkwardness up later on, even if you mean to apologize, it may turn out that other person didn't really care, and by very bringing it up, you make them recall all this awkwardness which was in that moment. And this backfires on you.

 

Really? In my experience, I've found that "bringing up awkwardness" that I never actually noticed/cared about... is a very endearing thing at times.

 

People aren't perfect. Being a little nervous/unsure indicates an interest on some level too... if that interest is desired, then the "insecurity/uncertainty" can be quite cute...

Edited September 19, 2011 by OnyxSnowfall

[rafallus]

People aren't perfect. Being a little nervous/unsure indicates an interest on some level too... if that interest is desired, then the "insecurity/uncertainty" can be quite cute...

 

With people, whom you've already established a bond with, possibly. Then again, with such people, question of "making/not making a move" becomes rather irrelevant.

[LittleTiger]

This thread is incredibly sad and reading it is like watching 'the blind leading the blind'!

 

You can't choose whether to be friend-zoned or not. You meet a girl, she's either attracted to you or she isn't. If she isn't you're never going to be more than her friend - no matter what you do.

 

What's sad is that some of you seem to completely discount any kind of relationship with a girl if there's no chance of having sex with her? What exactly is wrong with friendship with someone of the opposite sex?

 

People are people!. Despite what many think, we're actually the same species, regardless of gender - we can all be friends and just enjoy each other's company for the sheer pleasure of it.

 

There are benefits to having friends of the opposite sex which have nothing to do with wanting 'attention' or 'ego boosts' or anything else that's mentioned here:

 

1) It's great practice for learning to relax and enjoy the company of people of the opposite sex - especially if you're nervous or socially awkward in any way.

 

2) It's a great way to learn about the opposite sex - women are a really good source of information about other women and men are a good source of information about other men.

 

3) Even if your friend isn't interested in you sexually, one of their friends might be - social networking in the real world - instead of FB!!!

 

If a woman says she wants to be your friend - congratulations! It probably means you're actually a great guy, fun to be with, interesting company and she 'likes' you as a human being. Rejecting her friendship just because she's not interested in having sex with you is incredibly foolish and short sighted and is 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'!

 

Everyone should have friends of both sexes. It means you're a well balanced person who can relate to everybody and is easy to get along with. A person who is open to all kinds of relationships is far more likely to find someone special.

[somedude81]

Why should a guy spend time with a woman who only wants to be his friend when that was not the reason why he approached her?

[LittleTiger]

Why should a guy spend time with a woman who only wants to be his friend when that was not the reason why he approached her?

 

I thought I just answered that!

 

What you mean is: 'Why should a guy spend time with a women who only wants to be his friend when the reason he approached her was to see if she would have sex with him'

 

If all you 'friendzone' guys think that sex is the only reason to spend time with women, then I suggest you change your attitude. You just might find you suddenly become more attractive to women. You may even get sex more often!

[Teknoe]

Why should a guy spend time with a woman who only wants to be his friend when that was not the reason why he approached her?

 

 

Nobody's saying you have to hold her bags, hold her purse, be her whipping boy. But in the right doses, a good friendship is a good thing.

 

Human beings were made for relationships. Yes, that includes platonic ones. I agree with LittleTiger's post 100%, and this is why I mainly avoid the Dating forum these days. It can really fill up your head with garbage if you allow yourself to be consumed by the kind of threads going on in this forum.

 

Live life. Have fun. Don't hurt or use other people. Make friends. Nurture your friendships. Share adventures together. Quit worrying so much about that elusive boyfriend/girlfriend. Take care of yourself first and the rest usually takes care of itself.

[Teknoe]

If all you 'friendzone' guys think that sex is the only reason to spend time with women, then I suggest you change your attitude. You just might find you suddenly become more attractive to women. You may even get sex more often!

 

 

Unfortunately, some guys are more thick-skulled than others. Some guys are too stubborn (and prideful) to admit when what they have been doing/thinking all along maybe isn't the right way to go about things.

[somedude81]

I thought I just answered that!

 

What you mean is: 'Why should a guy spend time with a women who only wants to be his friend when the reason he approached her was to see if she would have sex with him'

More words, same thing.

If all you 'friendzone' guys think that sex is the only reason to spend time with women, then I suggest you change your attitude. You just might find you suddenly become more attractive to women. You may even get sex more often!

Unfortunately, things don't work that way.

 

I've had many women friends and they didn't lead in any way to me having sex.

 

Not once have I ever had a woman introduce me to a friend of hers as some one to get to know and I've actually had a girl tell me that her friends are off limits.

 

And before you get the impression, I'm not a creeper.