Ruby Slippers Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 My brother attacked him once when he was picking me up and told him to get the f*** out of there then pulled me from my hair and got me in the house in front of all the neighbours and him, most embarrassing scene) so thats not really a possibility lol You say you're not too worried about violence against you from your brother, but this part is concerning. Please do be careful. I can't imagine having to worry about a family member killing me, and this being common practice in my culture!! Muslim women are some of the most oppressed and abused in the world, and I do believe your generation of women is about to go through similar struggles for equality that Western women did in the '60s and '70s. I can't speak for all of Western women, but as one of them, I can tell you that I'm behind you all the way. Western, more liberated Muslim women will be leading the way and setting the examples for Muslim women everywhere. Also they've been scaring me by telling me that the jobs I have wont be there for long and sooner or later I'll come back to them crying for help They are scared of what will happen to THEM if you leave, not of what will happen to you. If they really cared about you, they would not make manipulative doomsday threats. I moved out on my own when I was 17 and have gotten next to no help from my parents since then. I have worked my way up and done just fine. Many other women on this board have similar experiences. Don't let them pollute your mind with their fear mongering.
Professor X Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Trust me I know all about honor killing. They have threatened me but never really did anything and I don't think they would Well, I wouldn't be to sure if I were you. Those women who were murdered by their brothers were thinking the exact same thing. If you do run away, make sure you hide well, that's what they do here.
D-Lish Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 You should be careful though. Where I live (not islamic country thank god, but lots of muslims) you hear everyday about a girl that got killed in the name of family honor by her brother (muslims ofc). Very common here. Trust me, there's been some newsworthy stuff happen here as well. I'll never forget the case of the teenage girl whose father and brother threw gasoline on her and set her on fire until she burned to death. The mother interviewed after said she felt sad to lose her daughter but had brought it on herself. Her crime? Becoming a little assimilated and refusing to wear her head scarf. Disgusting. No offense, but I don't want people bringing that kind of crap into my country. Nor do I want people here that refuse to learn the language- it's so disrespectful. If I moved to another country, I'd assimilate as much as possible. I'd want to learn the language, customs and experience the culture and obey the laws. Canada is so overly tolerant and accomodating with immigrants- often at the expense of our own foundations, customs and citizens. It goes against the concept of multi-culturalism if people move here and keep themselves segregated. OP, I'd be worried about your brother. I doubt that the young girl whose dad and brother threw gasoline on her and watched her burn to death for not wearing her head scarf and going to school with make up on thought it would have happened to her either.
Sooner or Later Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Trust me I know all about honor killing. They have threatened me but never really did anything and I don't think they would You definitely need to be concerned about their potential to do you harm. Exactly how were you threatened? It is a reality that girls in your situation are hurt and killed. I would try to start my own life over without them, as I would suggest to anyone in an abusive situation. I am really concerned for your safety.
thatone Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) That's what I said today hoping that they would understand, but instead she tells me to stop speaking English to her and realize who I am and wake up before It's late. I don't know who to trust. I still have 2 more years till I graduate and find a decent job and move as far away from them as I can but I don't know if I could wait that long. Also they've been scaring me by telling me that the jobs I have wont be there for long and sooner or later I'll come back to them crying for help you trust who demonstrates that they are worthy of trust. i'm third generation from immigrant family as well, although not from a strict religious background. my grandfather fled ww2 germany. additionally, my parents divorced when i was young. so i don't give family an automatic level of trust. i have friends that i trust, i have family that i have 'thrown away' for lack of a better word and don't even speak to. here's what i would do in your shoes... a) get rid of the apartment that they know about, get another one in a different area b) get some money saved up, get a job c) calmly tell your parents in a public place that they are wrong, and you do not intend to see them again d) walk away you don't believe in your parents' religion or the culture that goes along with it, so you can't appease them without making yourself miserable. your only option is to leave them all behind. but you have to be committed to doing so. you have to accept the fact that you very well may never see your mother again, and cannot talk to her. you have to accept the fact that if your brothers or father find you, you need to go get restraining orders against them. if your boyfriend doesn't support you through this you have to accept the fact that you may be alone for awhile. and you should explain to your boyfriend that this will be very difficult at best. it doesn't sound like he grasps how difficult this will be. have a talk with him about it first. i would also go see someone at an abused women charity/center/safe house, perhaps make friends and volunteer at one. they can help, and you will probably need help at some point along the way. Edited September 12, 2011 by thatone
FitChick Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 I'd go to the police to ask them what I should do now to create a "paper trail" in case something happens. At least they'd know who to arrest. Perhaps a domestic violence shelter would be an answer because they are guarded and kept secret.
Author katya321 Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 They are scared of what will happen to THEM if you leave, not of what will happen to you. If they really cared about you, they would not make manipulative doomsday threats. I moved out on my own when I was 17 and have gotten next to no help from my parents since then. I have worked my way up and done just fine. Many other women on this board have similar experiences. Don't let them pollute your mind with their fear mongering. Thanks for your support, I'm trying to calm myself down to figure out what I have to do in this situation. I wanna be independent, but I wanna be sure that I'm doing this for me not for my boyfriend. Some of my friends have been telling me to wait and not make a decision right away and that my time will come soon and I'll get to live the way I want if i'm patient and some tell me to leave right away and man up and deal with the consequences.
Author katya321 Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 You definitely need to be concerned about their potential to do you harm. Exactly how were you threatened?. When I argue with them, my brother and dad would yell and threaten me, but this has happened a lot and they're all empty threats. When I moved out the first time they didn't do anything but if i decide to move again I'll sure be careful. Thanks for your concern though
Author katya321 Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 but you have to be committed to doing so. you have to accept the fact that you very well may never see your mother again, and cannot talk to her. you have to accept the fact that if your brothers or father find you, you need to go get restraining orders against them. if your boyfriend doesn't support you through this you have to accept the fact that you may be alone for awhile. and you should explain to your boyfriend that this will be very difficult at best. it doesn't sound like he grasps how difficult this will be. have a talk with him about it first. . Awh i'm sorry, I understand how you feel. This is what's scaring me, losing everything. I know I'm so unhappy being here but losing family forever is a huge step that I can't take back because my family is strict. My boyfriend doesn't like to feel pressured, when i tell him about stuff like these he wouldn't say anything he'd just say that he wishes he could help but he can't do anything. Today I was trying to explain how everything is so hard for me and how I'm doing all of this for us all he said was "you'll be fine on your own, you don't need your family". I was kind of wishing he would say he'd be there for me. I'm not needy or anything, but like you said, it would be nice if he knew how difficult the situation im in is.
insaneinthebrain Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 i might be a little late to posting in this thread but being as i am new here ... well ..lets see how this goes.. as i singed up just to post on this thread. Katya... you need to understand that your culture is repressive of women. In your cultures eyes, you are your fathers and your brothers property. I am sorry but i cant be nice about this. I mean ..there is a whole war going on about this stuff. FOr those of you that dont know, the Muslim religion is the same religion that condones things like honor rape.. so depend on what level of devotion katyas family is at , she could really be in real danger. My personal advice to you.... do not even mention this to your mother, let alone your brother or father. Keep your relationship with your bf as secret as possible. YOU ARE IN REAL DANGER ... YOU AS DISHONORING YOUR FATHER AND YOUR BROTHER..... AND THAT CAN CARRY A STEEP PRICE... Do the best you can to get your life together in secret. Put your relationship with your bf on hold. Wait till you can establish your self alone, with out your bf support, or your father or brothers support. .... Thread very carefully. Explain this to your bf. If he trulyloves you he will understand, and be supportive. YOu get to choose what you want in live. Not your family. its your moms choice to let her self be subjected, as those are her believes. I respect that. But i have to believe that its her choice. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE CHOICE AS WELL... and if you can get away and want too.. you should be prepared..
Author katya321 Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 i might be a little late to posting in this thread but being as i am new here ... well ..lets see how this goes.. as i singed up just to post on this thread. Katya... you need to understand that your culture is repressive of women. In your cultures eyes, you are your fathers and your brothers property. I am sorry but i cant be nice about this. I mean ..there is a whole war going on about this stuff. FOr those of you that dont know, the Muslim religion is the same religion that condones things like honor rape.. so depend on what level of devotion katyas family is at , she could really be in real danger. My personal advice to you.... do not even mention this to your mother, let alone your brother or father. Keep your relationship with your bf as secret as possible. YOU ARE IN REAL DANGER ... YOU AS DISHONORING YOUR FATHER AND YOUR BROTHER..... AND THAT CAN CARRY A STEEP PRICE... Do the best you can to get your life together in secret. Put your relationship with your bf on hold. Wait till you can establish your self alone, with out your bf support, or your father or brothers support. .... Thread very carefully. Explain this to your bf. If he trulyloves you he will understand, and be supportive. YOu get to choose what you want in live. Not your family. its your moms choice to let her self be subjected, as those are her believes. I respect that. But i have to believe that its her choice. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE CHOICE AS WELL... and if you can get away and want too.. you should be prepared.. Thanks a lot for your answer! There were nights when I was scared going home, and I was scared going to bed, and just remembering those makes me wanna leave right now. I've been trying to change them for the past 4 years but I realized that's not possible. I am willing to be on my own sooner or later, I will never let myself be as blind as other muslim women are and accept my "fate". I even told my mom that what she's doing is wrong and that she should open her eyes and look the hell around. I have kept my relationship as a secret for 4 months only, they are way too nosy for me to hide such a thing. My brothers went through my purse to find that I have been taking birth control pills. They also went through my computer when I wasn't home to find pictures of me and my boyfriend on the beach. They told my parents about all of that when I left the house and for them thats the biggest sin and they hate me for it. They even call my work constantly to find out if I'm actually working or out with him which is so embarrassing. I wish I had a normal life like other people do, I can't remember the last time I had fun without having to worry about something. I will need time to think about what I will do but I'm sure I'll be careful.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 My boyfriend or my muslim family? This is like asking: "My neighborhood, or Mister Rogers' neighborhood?"
insaneinthebrain Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks a lot for your answer! There were nights when I was scared going home, and I was scared going to bed, and just remembering those makes me wanna leave right now. I've been trying to change them for the past 4 years but I realized that's not possible. I am willing to be on my own sooner or later, I will never let myself be as blind as other muslim women are and accept my "fate". I even told my mom that what she's doing is wrong and that she should open her eyes and look the hell around. I have kept my relationship as a secret for 4 months only, they are way too nosy for me to hide such a thing. My brothers went through my purse to find that I have been taking birth control pills. They also went through my computer when I wasn't home to find pictures of me and my boyfriend on the beach. They told my parents about all of that when I left the house and for them thats the biggest sin and they hate me for it. They even call my work constantly to find out if I'm actually working or out with him which is so embarrassing. I wish I had a normal life like other people do, I can't remember the last time I had fun without having to worry about something. I will need time to think about what I will do but I'm sure I'll be careful. Ultimately its up to you.... untill you can stand up on your own two feet, you really are at your familys mercy. I thinks its pretty clear where you stand on your faith, and really, i am sure that there are muslim sects out there arent strict about these tennants. Religion is a tricky thing. It can cause people to loose perspective on reality. In this case, the reality is that your father has lost perpective that you are an independent person. Its not that he is a bad person, its just that he doesnt know better. There is something else you need to realize. You Might be choosint to walk away from your faith, and at the same time, your whole family. I dont know how they would take it, but really, if they are really devout, they might actully come after you for leaving the faith. I mean .. there are some extremes views out there... in walking away, you might be walking away from the only family you have..... Are you ready for that. To be literally and orphan ......
Ruby Slippers Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Today I was trying to explain how everything is so hard for me and how I'm doing all of this for us all he said was "you'll be fine on your own, you don't need your family". I was kind of wishing he would say he'd be there for me. I'm not needy or anything, but like you said, it would be nice if he knew how difficult the situation im in is. I think he does sympathize -- but he is in a difficult position, too. At your ages, it's way too much pressure on him to be expected to take care of you if your family really does shut you out for making your own adult choices. He is probably not at all in a position to guarantee to be your foolproof safety net. He's showing integrity by not over-promising just to get his way. It's the weak and immature who make promises they're not confident they can keep. It sounds to me like he is trying to be supportive and understanding, without intruding, which is the most loving thing he could do. I really think you should talk to a campus counselor about this as soon as you can. It's obviously stressful and difficult. Just beginning the conversation will give you a lot of clarity and make you feel better.
insaneinthebrain Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 I think he does sympathize -- but he is in a difficult position, too. At your ages, it's way too much pressure on him to be expected to take care of you if your family really does shut you out for making your own adult choices. He is probably not at all in a position to guarantee to be your foolproof safety net. He's showing integrity by not over-promising just to get his way. It's the weak and immature who make promises they're not confident they can keep. It sounds to me like he is trying to be supportive and understanding, without intruding, which is the most loving thing he could do. I really think you should talk to a campus counselor about this as soon as you can. It's obviously stressful and difficult. Just beginning the conversation will give you a lot of clarity and make you feel better. Totally agreed ruby slippers..... It shows great wisdom that he knows that he cant bite off more than he chew.... Like i said. This is something that she will have to do by her self... with out expecting support from anyone.
mtber75 Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Why bother moving to Canada then???? That's what pisses me off about immigrants, they come to Canada and decide to isolate themselves instead of assimilating. So your boyfriend is Christian... Is he also white? Like every previous immigrants before them..They hang around with their own group until they feel comfortable assimilating with the general populations. Some immigrants will have more difficult time than others. This is more of a religious issue? Its probably because he's not of the same faith as you...In this case, yes you should move out and continue seeking your BF. But don't say this to your family until they become more understanding. If they truly love you! They'll grow to accept you for who you are!
Author katya321 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 He's showing integrity by not over-promising just to get his way. It's the weak and immature who make promises they're not confident they can keep. It sounds to me like he is trying to be supportive and understanding, without intruding, which is the most loving thing he could do. I agree. What I love about him the most is that he never lies or makes false promises. A lot of people have been telling me that if I leave I would be way too emotionally independent on him and sometimes angry for losing a family for him and that might ruin our relationship. But then again staying at my house is gonna make him disappointed and might not wanna be able to deal with this drama anymore. I wish I could get out of this with no losses but I can't seem to find a way to.
Author katya321 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 Are you ready for that. To be literally and orphan ...... I don't know if I am ready for that. The world is scary
Ruby Slippers Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 A lot of people have been telling me that if I leave I would be way too emotionally independent on him and sometimes angry for losing a family for him and that might ruin our relationship. But then again staying at my house is gonna make him disappointed and might not wanna be able to deal with this drama anymore. I wish I could get out of this with no losses but I can't seem to find a way to. This is why you make any decisions around this for YOU, based on how you want your life to be. If you do decide to move out, get your OWN place, rather than living with him. Work on being strong and independent on your own, because you're going to need that and it will serve you well throughout life. If I were you, I would try to look at it as a choice between submitting to my family's wishes (which means having their conditional support, and dating and marrying a man they approve of) and claiming independence for yourself, which means not having their support, but choosing your romantic partner(s) without the need for their approval.
D-Lish Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 They move to Canada or the United States for the freedom to practice their religion and wear whatever they want. I don't think that's the point of the story anyway to criticize the nature of the parents. If two Canadians moved to Egypt, no one would blame them for wanting a church and having a bible in their home. People's cultures and religions are part of their identity, and this family is like many Muslim families in the world. Anyway, I would try to reason with your mother. I think that a few of the girls I know have converted guys to Islam to marry them and settle them down. If this is a possibility and you would like to please your parents then you could always try to meet in the middle. The extent of practice would be up irrelevant as there would be no one monitoring his actions after he converts. OR You both could also just move on, but from my experience, but I think the sacrifice of losing your family as annoying and different as they are from you would be difficult on your relationship as well. Thus there is a real chance that if you chose him, you lose both your family and boyfriend because of the effect of this decision. I think some hard talks with him about the future, what you want, what he wants and really a formulated plan as what to do next would be a good idea. Good luck They had the freedom to practice their own religion in their country of origin. In Canada, we have customs and laws that are different from other isolating cultures in other parts of the world. In Canada, equality is first and foremost- Islam does not recognize equality between men and women. It's a freedom to practice religion, yes, that's a part of it- but only a small part of it. We have our customs and laws that should be adhered to. This young lady being threated by her brother is against the law. It seems many immigrants like to move to Canada and pick and choose their freedoms to reap the benefits while showing disdain for the freedoms that go against their rigid belief system. Sorry- equality is an ingrained part of the North American ideal. To bring your children to this country, send them to Canadian schools, and expect that those children won't begin to adapt to their new world is ridiculous. Sorry to tell you- but if you went to the Middle East and Tried to build a Christian church, you'd find yourself slaughtered.
Nexus One Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Sorry to tell you- but if you went to the Middle East and Tried to build a Christian church, you'd find yourself slaughtered. Well maybe not slaughtered (immediately). Many Middle Eastern countries have segregated Christian communities. Churches and Synagogues can be built within the districts of those communities within the respective Islamic countries. That being said there has been lots of resistance in Europe and North America too against the construction of new mosques. Switzerland banned the construction of minarets for example. That ban was decided through democratic referendum by the Swiss population. While I like the Swiss system due it being the most democratic country in the world in my opinion, I do find it ridiculous to politicize architecture. Similarly I find it ridiculous to politicize the clothes that people wear. Some countries in Europe have burqa bans and ban head scarf bans for public functions. Then again, Turkey, which has a large Islamic population has even completely banned head scarfs in public buildings for the entire population. There are simply some things where a government should not intervene in the lives of its population. To control what a citizen wears is just pushing it in my opinion. If Western governments are going down that road, then I suggest state issued Mao suits for everyone: http://bit.ly/rhTtxy Edited September 13, 2011 by Nexus One
D-Lish Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Well maybe not slaughtered (immediately). While I like the Swiss system due it being the most democratic country in the world in my opinion, I do find it ridiculous to politicize architecture. Similarly I find it ridiculous to politicize the clothes that people wear. Some countries in Europe have burqa bans and ban head scarf bans for public functions. Then again, Turkey, which has a large Islamic population has even completely banned head scarfs in public buildings for the entire population. There are simply some things where a government should not intervene in the lives of its population. To control what a citizen wears is just pushing it in my opinion. If Western governments are going down that road, then I suggest state issued Mao suits for everyone: http://bit.ly/rhTtxy I think the swiss have one of the best democracy systems in the world. When it comes to the head scarfs or burqa attire- for me, it's not a fashion ban, it's a representation of a lack of equality. That's all I see when I see a woman covered in her head scarf wearing a huge black sack covered from head to toe. It infuriates me- because it's an equality issue for me. Sure, they have a right to wear what they want, but in my own country, seeing this makes me feel like my free/equal society has been compromised and is perhaps regressing. I would LOVE to have a policy in Canada that if you want to immigrate to this country that you can't bring the antiquated notions and customs that designate women as second class citizens. I would like that to include banning any designation that goes against the very equality we have fought so hard for over the years. I feel like we are going backwards in Canada when we accept and support this lack of equality.
LurkerXX Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Yeah, but what about all the antiquated notions already in your country? Even though they fade over time, they are still there even in progressive areas; it is too subjective a criteria to have on immigration applications. I do think that banning certain articles of clothing goes too far, with the exception of the need to positively ID people in situations; for example, if they were stealing, and were detained, one has to be able to positively ID them to fairly charge them with the crime.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Sorry- equality is an ingrained part of the North American ideal. To bring your children to this country, send them to Canadian schools, and expect that those children won't begin to adapt to their new world is ridiculous. Perhaps you should redefine your sense of "North America": "The Equal Rights Amendment, first proposed in 1923 to affirm that women and men have equal rights under the law, is still not part of the U.S. Constitution. The ERA was passed out of Congress in 1972 and has been ratified by 35 of the necessary 38 states. When three more states vote yes, it is possible that the ERA could become the 28th Amendment. The ERA could also be ratified by restarting the traditional process of passage by a two-thirds majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives, followed by ratification by legislatures in three-quarters (38) of the 50 states." Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand 40 years later...
D-Lish Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Perhaps you should redefine your sense of "North America": "The Equal Rights Amendment, first proposed in 1923 to affirm that women and men have equal rights under the law, is still not part of the U.S. Constitution. The ERA was passed out of Congress in 1972 and has been ratified by 35 of the necessary 38 states. When three more states vote yes, it is possible that the ERA could become the 28th Amendment. The ERA could also be ratified by restarting the traditional process of passage by a two-thirds majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives, followed by ratification by legislatures in three-quarters (38) of the 50 states." Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand 40 years later... I'm Canadian- our government, immigration policies are different. Canada is known for being a multicultural nation. I think it's impossible to think that you can integrate multiple cultures into one society and expect things to run smoothly because all immigrants do is isolate themselves. Shouldn't the point of immigration be to assimilate somewhat? Isn't that respectful to the country you move to?
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