Are you a victim?

[Severely Unamused]

Never considered myself a victim.

 

Some of the MMs ended up getting more hurt than I did. "Victims" of their own hubris IMO.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

I'm of the opinion that you're either an unknowing, unwilling victim...or a knowledgeable, deliberate participant, responsible for the outcome and impacts to everyone else involved in the situation.

 

Either you're not responsible for the situation because you were unwilling or unknowing...or you're fully responsible for your actions.

 

I agree with this only to a point. Is the train driver responsible for the impacts and outcomes to everyone else involved in the situation when someone rushes past a mother holding a pram on the station, accidentally sending that pram under the wheels of the oncoming train? Is he driver of that train responsible for the counselling required by the brother of the baby in the pram who witnessed what happened? Is the signalman who signalled the train in to the platform responsible likewise? Both chose to cause the train to enter the station and to arrive at the platform. But I would argue that neither wittingly chose to crush the baby in the pram - that was simply an unforeseen consequence of their deliberate choices.

[stillafool]

There's a lot of talk of 'preying' and 'unsuspecting victims' and so on on this board lately. Didn't used to be as much. Big bad MM preys on unsuspecting vulnerable poor ickle OW.

 

Is that you? Do you believe you were set up from the start? A toy? Were you played and used?

 

I'm genuinely curious because whilst I'm aware that an affair relationship has a high chance of going 'off-course' in one way or another, my personal view is that most people are willing participants choosing to take decisions they may live to regret.

 

Happy to hear your views.

 

There are no innocent victims in an affair. The only way to be innocent is if the person had no idea the other was married. Youth is not an excuse either because everyone knows right from wrong.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

There's a lot of talk of 'preying' and 'unsuspecting victims' and so on on this board lately. Didn't used to be as much. Big bad MM preys on unsuspecting vulnerable poor ickle OW.

 

Is that you? Do you believe you were set up from the start? A toy? Were you played and used?

 

I'm genuinely curious because whilst I'm aware that an affair relationship has a high chance of going 'off-course' in one way or another, my personal view is that most people are willing participants choosing to take decisions they may live to regret.

Happy to hear your views.

 

Surely that's the same in ANY R? You enter it hoping for the best, aware that things may not work out as you wish, and working towards the outcome you want? And, if it turns out that you and your RP are not working towards the same outcome, or perhaps are but to different timelines, or that circumstances are just too overwhelming to allow for your preferred outcome - you cut your losses and leave? (Or are left?)

 

I do have a friend who seems to have real rotten luck with Rs - her 1st H drank and beat her; her 2nd H turned out to be a paedophile (she had a very young daughter at the time) and she had to shop him to the cops after finding child porn on his computer; her 3rd H turned out to be a conman, using a fake name, with at least 3 other Ws (that they'd managed to trace at that point) who had fleeced her of all her assets and money; her current fiance seems like the real deal but we're all crossing our fingers and holding thumbs that it will work out for her this time. Is she a victim? She'd be the last one to consider herself such. She's way too trusting - and way too generous - but she owns that and chooses to continue living that way, because it's authentic to how and who she is. She blames no one for her bad fortune - she acknowledges that she could have acted differently for a different outcome. She accepts what life deals her and moves on - and she's HAPPY!

[jthorne]

because it's authentic to how and who she is. She blames no one for her bad fortune - she acknowledges that she could have acted differently for a different outcome. She accepts what life deals her and moves on - and she's HAPPY!

Okay, I am going to go here.

 

So basically what you're saying is that people should do whatever they want to do, as long as it is authentic to them? Hurting themselves and/or others is ok as long as they are true to who they are?

Edited September 7, 2011 by jthorne

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Okay, I am going to go here.

 

So basically what you're saying is that people should do whatever they want to do, as long as it is authentic to them? Hurting themselves and/or others is ok as long as they are true to who they are?

 

No, that is not "basically what I'm saying". Care to have another try, or should I reveal the correct answer?

[bentnotbroken]

Okay, I am going to go here.

 

So basically what you're saying is that people should do whatever they want to do, as long as it is authentic to them? Hurting themselves and/or others is ok as long as they are true to who they are?

 

 

annndddd....morally relative and somebody is split up about it. :laugh:

[White Flower]

There's a lot of talk of 'preying' and 'unsuspecting victims' and so on on this board lately. Didn't used to be as much. Big bad MM preys on unsuspecting vulnerable poor ickle OW.

 

Is that you? Do you believe you were set up from the start? A toy? Were you played and used?

 

I'm genuinely curious because whilst I'm aware that an affair relationship has a high chance of going 'off-course' in one way or another, my personal view is that most people are willing participants choosing to take decisions they may live to regret.

 

Happy to hear your views.

You're right SG. it used to be an OP board which has been taken over by BS, who seem to believe as long as they convince us that we are victims we will eventually turn away from our evil villain MM. And no, I am not a victim.

 

I really just need to ask why you use such words to describe a woman. Doesn't matter if she's an OW or not, but to call a woman poor and ickle ? It's one thing to say victim and vunerable. And the big bad MM. Why not just say MM? It's almost telling an intention of how you want this thread to be?

Sorry WW, you know I like you, but you're obviously trying to deflect the fact that it is your friends who are guilty of that which SG points out. And it's not very affective.

 

I have to agree and if a betrayed spouse had started this thread people would be calling for blood.

 

Silly its great that you are happy with your relationship and that you and your man are living happily ever after but why take shots at other people?

 

And no I was not a victim

 

And very brave of those who felt they were victims to reply to this thread where they have been denigrated and made fun of in the opening post.

That's SG's point exactly. BS start threads all the time with intentions of convincing OW they are victims and are allowed to get away with it time after time. Nobody has been denigrated; you seem to be following the script now JJ.

[jj33]

You're right SG. it used to be an OP board which has been taken over by BS, who seem to believe as long as they convince us that we are victims we will eventually turn away from our evil villain MM. And no, I am not a victim.

 

Sorry WW, you know I like you, but you're obviously trying to deflect the fact that it is your friends who are guilty of that which SG points out. And it's not very affective.

 

 

That's SG's point exactly. BS start threads all the time with intentions of convincing OW they are victims and are allowed to get away with it time after time. Nobody has been denigrated; you seem to be following the script now JJ.

 

 

Wow talk about twisting words. Its a shot at anyone who doesnt look back with fond memories and feels they were taken for a ride. All you need to do is to read the plain English - not your strong suit I know.

 

And as for feeling like one is the victim being effective (not affective) who are we to decide whether someone feels like a victim? That is up to them. And this is cyberspace and how in the world to we KNOW what went on? Just because you have this chip on your shoulders that people who look back without joy on their affairs are reformed OWs doesnt mean that they dont have a right to feel that way.

 

And if you all are so very happy in your relationships then why is that so threatening to you? Someone else's unhappiness does not change your relationship with your lovely men.

 

Perhaps it is YOU that are going to the script. Its your fault. You got involved you knew what you were in for. What happened to compassion and support for the very OWs posting here?

 

Sheesh. Talk about an agenda. SG and her gang of girls are on the job again.

Edited September 7, 2011 by jj33

[donnamaybe]

BS start threads all the time with intentions of convincing OW they are victims and are allowed to get away with it time after time. Nobody has been denigrated; you seem to be following the script now JJ.

Actually, those starting nearly every one of those threads that I've seen lately are former OW - I know - "former." The type of OW so many of you abhor for some odd reason.

[jj33]

Actually, those starting nearly every one of those threads that I've seen lately are former OW - I know - "former." The type of OW so many of you abhor for some odd reason.

 

Ill say it again someone else's choice to leave an affair or their unhappiness that they were in an affair shouldnt threaten those in affairs so much if they really believe they have strong relationships.

 

The only reason to feel threatened is if perhaps what you are posting about your oh so happy love affair is really not as happy as you'd like everyone to beleieve.

 

This is a board for support for people who are or have been in affairs. Making fun of them regardless of who does it, doesnt count as support so far as I know but that of course is up to the moderators.

[pureinheart]

I'm not sure that applies to the BS. It seems the BS feels victimized by their spouses betrayal and deception, independent of the outcome. Even when they go on to reconcile and rebuild a strong and happy M. Not that they continue feeling like a victim, but from the way they write, I think they think that the affair was not of their choosing and was something the WS did secretly which hurt them. I don't recall any saying they would have chosen the WS's affair in the way OW say they chose the affair.

 

Nowhere is this implied, still the fact remains that even as the "BS" victim, the R didn't turn out the way the BS wanted.

[woinlove]

No, that is not "basically what I'm saying". Care to have another try, or should I reveal the correct answer?

 

 

Please, do reveal the correct answer.

 

The basic facts in your post are that this woman was beaten, a pedophile got close to her young daughter (not clear if her daughter was molested), and a conman took her money (and maybe involved her in polygamy - not clear), but all 3 were her husbands and "she blames no one for her bad fortune".

 

What message did you want to convey with these facts?

[jj33]

Me me I have the answer. All MM are lovely and if you dont revel in the affair and look back with lovely memories you are flawed cuz you are threatening the hopes of those still hanging on waiting for their happy ending...

[donnamaybe]

Me me I have the answer. All MM are lovely and if you dont revel in the affair and look back with lovely memories you are flawed cuz you are threatening the hopes of those still hanging on waiting for their happy ending...

Yep.

 

You know, I get that in some RARE cases, the A does turn into a R. How many of those actually last is for another thread. HOWEVER - when there is someone still waiting in their sixth year it is tantamount to delusion. Feeding the delusion is just cruel, IMO.

[Silly_Girl]

Wow talk about twisting words. Its a shot at anyone who doesnt look back with fond memories and feels they were taken for a ride. All you need to do is to read the plain English - not your strong suit I know.

 

And as for feeling like one is the victim being effective (not affective) who are we to decide whether someone feels like a victim? That is up to them. And this is cyberspace and how in the world to we KNOW what went on? Just because you have this chip on your shoulders that people who look back without joy on their affairs are reformed OWs doesnt mean that they dont have a right to feel that way.

 

And if you all are so very happy in your relationships then why is that so threatening to you? Someone else's unhappiness does not change your relationship with your lovely men.

 

Perhaps it is YOU that are going to the script. Its your fault. You got involved you knew what you were in for. What happened to compassion and support for the very OWs posting here?

 

Sheesh. Talk about an agenda. SG and her gang of girls are on the job again.

 

It's a shot at nobody, jj. As you say, feeling like a victim is down to the individual, hence the question. Other posts had contained the assumption that most OWs WERE victims, and as that wasn't my take I wondered if it was the case for others.

 

Why did it offend you?

[whichwayisup]

 

Sorry WW, you know I like you, but you're obviously trying to deflect the fact that it is your friends who are guilty of that which SG points out. And it's not very affective.

Right back at ya.

 

Nah, not deflecting at all, was really trying to understand the use of those two words, icky and poor.

 

Maybe it's just today, finding out my cat dying and soon to be put down, and hearing of a plane crash which wiped out a whole (Russian) hockey team, to be honest, the bickering, back stabbing, finger pointing, argurments, various groups ganging up on other groups, back and forth, day in and day out, the games of trying to flame others for reaction, so another can hit the alert us button to get them banned or on moderated status, at the end of the day -- It's so bloody pointless and honestly, getting to me. All of us are grown adults acting like brats at times, for what? Who is right, or more right? Who is wrong and put them down? NONE OF US offline or to our face to face friends would be having these immature spats and stuff, saying things and being bitchy on purpose, subtle or not, right? The days of just helping someone and not having to defend yourself as to why you (general you) said this or that, given this advice etc, are over.. Instead it's a daily pissing match, each one of us have created this problem one way or another, so nobody should deny this or feel they're above it or act like they haven't participated at times, I'm guilty of it at times too, and that's about to stop as I'm so sick of it. I think I'm done for good.

 

Anyway, I'm having a real bad day and it's only going to get worse as the evening rolls around so I'm bowing out.

[Quiet Storm]

But I just don't think most 25 year old women are wise enough or have had enough life experience to know when some older guy is really just looking to get in her pants and instead believes the bullsh*t these married guys are feeding them.

 

I agree, and that is the fault of her parents, IMO.

 

It is our job as parents to prepare our kids for the real world. Since 10% of US population is personality disordered, we all come into contact with liars, cheaters, sneaks and manipulators on a daily basis. Teens and young adults need to know how to recognize red flags. Bad people don't walk around with devil horns so that we know to stay away, but they do leave clues that we need to pay attention to.

 

Kids also should be taught that many others have had rough lives with bad circumstances. That there are many people that were abused or neglected in their life, and we can empathize with them...but that DOES NOT mean we have to keep unhealthy people in our lives.

 

We need to teach our kids boundaries, which are usually learned by example. If we don't want to raise liars and cheaters, we can't be (or condone) lying or cheating. If we accept bad treatment from others, then our kids will think that is okay.

 

My parents had their own personal brand of dysfunction, but I was lucky enough to have a dad that told it to me straight about the motivations of men, LOL.

 

Too many young girls are raised on Disney fariy tales, believing that if a man pursues you, he wants to be with you forever.

 

This is simply not true, as many men will pursue anything they might possibly have a chance with. The intensity of their pursuit does not correlate with how much they like you, just how much they want to eff you. And then when the novelty wears off and his attention wanes, she is left heartbroken.

 

We should at least give our kids the tools to recognize people like this. Sure, they will fall in love and discard our advice as usual, but we can give them a foundation based on real life issues.

 

Many parents raise their kids in ways that reflect how we wish the world was, and not how it is.

 

It would be great if all people were loving and caring, if nobody lied, if everyone followed the "golden rule" or the ten commandments and if everyone had our best interest at heart. But that's not reality.

 

You don't have to be pessimistic, just realistic.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Quiet Storm

[TurningTables]

There's a lot of talk of 'preying' and 'unsuspecting victims' and so on on this board lately. Didn't used to be as much. Big bad MM preys on unsuspecting vulnerable poor ickle OW.

 

Is that you? Do you believe you were set up from the start? A toy? Were you played and used?

 

I'm genuinely curious because whilst I'm aware that an affair relationship has a high chance of going 'off-course' in one way or another, my personal view is that most people are willing participants choosing to take decisions they may live to regret.

 

Happy to hear your views.

 

 

Hiya SG. I know Im gonna get jumped for this one, but, I dont think anyone is the victim in a A except the unknowing BS. There has been alot of posters lately, coming on here saying "they didnt know he was M" blah blah. He may have lied to you, but there were signs. There are always signs when something isnt quite right. Most decide just to ignore them. Instead of listening to our instincts, we go after that "love fairy tale" we as women normally seek.

 

Was I a victim? NO. I knew from the get go that he ( xMM and my best friend) was M. After feelings were revealed, did I continue? Yes. I felt that his M was already over, so I just kept going....To my everlasting shame.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Please, do reveal the correct answer.

 

The basic facts in your post are that this woman was beaten, a pedophile got close to her young daughter (not clear if her daughter was molested), and a conman took her money (and maybe involved her in polygamy - not clear), but all 3 were her husbands and "she blames no one for her bad fortune".

 

What message did you want to convey with these facts?

 

That she chose not to see herself as a victim, when she could easily have done so. It would have been easy for her to say, "he lied to me" (which clearly did happen) or "he beat me and I was afraid, so did what he said") which clearly also happened - but she chose not to. She accepted that what happened to her was the result of her own flawed judgment, the fact that she trusted others too easily, and her habit of seeing the good in others rather than their flaws.

 

People may do things to us that we have no control over. But our response is what determines whether we become victims or not.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Me me I have the answer. All MM are lovely and if you dont revel in the affair and look back with lovely memories you are flawed cuz you are threatening the hopes of those still hanging on waiting for their happy ending...

 

I think you'll find my post said nothing about MMs, lovely or otherwise. It spoke about victimhood - which I understood to be the subject of this thread.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Actually, those starting nearly every one of those threads that I've seen lately are former OW - I know - "former." The type of OW so many of you abhor for some odd reason.

 

especially those former OWs now with their fAPs. They seem most abhorred around here.

[26pointblue]

But my post was in response to reformed OW's posts, not because OWs are here posting that they ARE a victim. On the whole they're not posting in that fashion, in my view. It's a bit of a myth, or not? So far most people seem able to take a considered view. There again, I'm already showing bias

 

So you clearly started this thread just for sport & to rile things up. How sad.

[woinlove]

That she chose not to see herself as a victim, when she could easily have done so. It would have been easy for her to say, "he lied to me" (which clearly did happen) or "he beat me and I was afraid, so did what he said") which clearly also happened - but she chose not to. She accepted that what happened to her was the result of her own flawed judgment, the fact that she trusted others too easily, and her habit of seeing the good in others rather than their flaws.

 

People may do things to us that we have no control over. But our response is what determines whether we become victims or not.

 

Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying "he lied to me", "he beat me" if he did. Do you think being a victim speaks poorly of the person victimized? What about the young child? If she was molested by a pedophile, isn't she a victim?

 

I agree with the sentiment that how one responds is really important. But being a victim is a factual statement - it means someone was harmed. Letting it define who you are once you heal is an unhealthy response. However, it doesn't change that fact that you were once victimized.

 

Nothing I said is specific to affairs. An OW may be victimized, but I don't think that is the usual dynamic in an A. However, someone who is beaten up, robbed, raped, molested, murdered, ... is a victim.

[donnamaybe]

especially those former OWs now with their fAPs. They seem most abhorred around here.

No, actually not. Just the bitchy ones.