Struggling trying to understand if/why infidelity is wrong

[alexandria35]

I don't know if the OP is still here and I didn't read all of the replies so forgive me if I'm repeating things that have already been said.

 

OP you say you are struggling to understand why infidelity is wrong, so do you also struggle to understand why deceit and lying is wrong? Because one must become a liar and deceiver to carry on an affair. Are you good with that?

 

You say that you are not looking for validation to cheat but you just want to have a philosophical discussion. I don't believe that. A philosophical discussion doesn't revolve around oneself. Your whole opening post was about you, your marriage and your wife. To be phiolosophical one generally has to be able to step outide of their own life and be objective, which you are not. This is all about you. You are not being philosophical at all.

 

I don't understand you or your potential OW at all. You describe your marriage as simply horrible but then go on to say that you don't want to divorce because it cost too much money. Okay well since you don't have kids and since it sounds like your wife is financially independant I'm not sure why a divorce would be so costly. Even if it does take a large chunk of money, you are only in your 30's and you are successful so it shouldn't take long for you to make that money back. Isn't losing a couple of years worth of earning preferable to spending a lifetime in a miserable marriage? I'm not saying you should get a divorce, I'm just saying that a divorce is perfectly feasible and doable, whereas you seem to think getting a divorce is much more outrageous than deciding to become a lying cheat.

 

You say your wife is an alcoholic and it sounds like she has been for years. I spent years with an alcoholic and so I know what that is like. I have empathy for you but I also know that regardless of what your wife is or isn't doing the responsibility for your happiness still lies with you. She's not the only one who needs recovery, you need recovery too. By the sounds of it you have spent years either enabling or ignoring your wifes illness. I spent years fighting with my ex alcoholic partner about his drinking. It doesn't work and enabling doesn't work either. You can't make your wife stop drinking but you also don't have to be dragged down that dark hole with her. Get professional help, look into Alanon, find someone to talk to, but not the OW as she cannot be objective and she has her own agenda in regards to you.

 

You seem to be saying that you are within your rights to break your marriage vows to your wife since she has already broken her vows with her behavior and her alcoholism. So in your mind two wrongs equals a right? I work for a company that involves making contracts with people. If one of our clients points out to us that we have not honored the contract in some way, we first bend over backwards to make amends and if the client still isn't happy and it is a fact that we dishonored the contract then the contract is null and void and that client is free to move on to another company and all of our business dealings with the client are completely severed. Our relationship with that client is over. We don't get into games of tit for tat. When a client dishonors the contract we're not interested in listening to their lame excuses of how we did them wrong first because if they thought that was true then they should of addressed that immediately, not whip it out at some later date as justification for screwing us over. Your marriage is a contract, honor it or end it in an honorable way. Do you normally feel compelled to become dishonorable whenever you see someone else being dishonorable? Regardless of the condition of your marriage, you can still maintain your dignity and integrity.

 

Both you and the OW sound very lost and kind of screwed up. She is with a physically abusive husband and all she cares about is getting a little sex on the side and keeping her possesions? My God!! Does she care the least little bit about what affect her abusive marriage is having on her children? How the hell is having an affair going to improve her home life?? If her husband is such a bad guy she should be working towards becoming an independant single mother, not sneaking off to get laid. I don't understand why on earth she would take the risk of getting caught screwing around on her husband when her husband is capable of physically abusing her. Is she crazy? Is that the game she wants to play with her kids lives? Same goes for you. No doubt a little fling on the side would brighten your days for a little while but you would be deceiving yourself to believe that an affair is actually going to improve the problems you are having at home. An affair would make everything more complicated and you would never feel the same about yourself, unless of course, lying and deceit already comes natural to you.

[linwood]

Hello All,

I have a hard time understanding infidelity. Something may be wrong with me. However, I just don't get why it's wrong in this day and age.

 

Simple, it`s a lie.

It`s a lie that causes the person you`ve promised to care for a lot of pain.

 

You want secular ethics?

 

"Cause a minimum of harm/violation"

 

The above is a secular ethical standard.

 

So do you think having an affair violates or harms the relationship you have with your wife?

Do you think the possibility of harm exists if you have an affair?

 

If you`ve answered yes to either question then you have your answer.

If you`ve answered no or "I don`t know" to either question then you are deluded.

[flyaway]

cheating is wrong because its breaking a promise. you have this understood agreement with your wife to be faithful. when you are not, you are breaking that. you also must lie to her to cover that up, which is wrong. thats why cheating is wrong.

 

i suggest going to your wife and telling her about your intentions. who knows, maybe she wont care, maybe she will. the only way to make it right to sleep with another woman is to tell your wife beforehand so she knows that you are breaking this understood agreement. its only fair to her.

 

after you tell her, do what you want. seriously.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Oh, darn. I DID read your whole opening post, OP.

 

Those are precious moments I will never recover. Thanks a lot.

 

It seems to be a time honored tradition here on good old LoveShack that a "new" member shows up and posts a very long, detailed saga with the exact same features, only slightly rearranged.

 

"He" is "perfect."

 

His wife is a mess.

 

None of his needs are getting met.

 

He "can't" divorce because of financial considerations (whoops! "Perfect" people don't remain married and / or lie and cheat because of material concerns.)

 

He has a chance for "love" with a wonderful (usually young) prospect.

 

Why shouldn't he go for what he so obviously DESERVES?

 

He means well ... he needs help to understand why it would be wrong!

 

Sound familiar?

 

When the predictable responses roll in, the OP starts criticizing the validity, nature and intent of the respondents, and usually starts to show actual anger. This is not going AT ALL the way it was supposed to! Where is the pity, the compassion and the support for "his" interesting story?

 

One time, the OP of one of these threads even went rather bonkers and claimed that "he" was actually a student who was using the horrible advice given at LoveShack as the basis of some kind of scholarly work

 

And, here is another example of this fine LS tradition.

 

I really wish I could know if all these threads originate from the same computer.

[KR10N]

lol. Sorry, but I think you contradicted yourself at one point.

[Steadfast]

I have a hard time understanding infidelity. Something may be wrong with me. However, I just don't get why it's wrong in this day and age.

 

That's as far as I got and stopped. Have not read any responses either.

 

Political affiliation aside, this is liberal thinking. And while going 'outside the box' is great for new/unique ideas to improve life and health, it does not and cannot interfere with basic morals and freedom. This is, and remains as true as hot will burn, cold will freeze, our natural instinct to avoid pain, and a multitude of other truths often forgotten in conversation.

 

I can advise your condition and issues with the golden rule, then allow you to sort through the rest. When it's all about you, it's all about nothing.

[Steen719]

That's as far as I got and stopped. Have not read any responses either.

 

Political affiliation aside, this is liberal thinking. And while going 'outside the box' is great for new/unique ideas to improve life and health, it does not and cannot interfere with basic morals and freedom. This is, and remains as true as hot will burn, cold will freeze, our natural instinct to avoid pain, and a multitude of other truths often forgotten in conversation.

 

I can advise your condition and issues with the golden rule, then allow you to sort through the rest. When it's all about you, it's all about nothing.

 

^^^^^

Well said

Edited September 4, 2011 by Steen719

[StoneCold]

That's as far as I got and stopped. Have not read any responses either.

 

Political affiliation aside, this is liberal thinking. And while going 'outside the box' is great for new/unique ideas to improve life and health, it does not and cannot interfere with basic morals and freedom. This is, and remains as true as hot will burn, cold will freeze, our natural instinct to avoid pain, and a multitude of other truths often forgotten in conversation. .

 

Perhaps... but what are these basic morals as it applies to everyone? This is very subjective and is why the OP thinks what he thinks and why you think what you think.

[painfullyobvious]

I used to feel the same way. I used to wonder why people would get so upset and start fights over another individuals choice to sleep with someone else. I wondered why people became so angry, full of rage, and became psychologically irrational after finding out about their partner sleeping with someone else. I used to state that the BS/BP was channeling their anger towards the affair partner when it should have been focused on their partner.

 

Then I got cheated on. I understand the betrayal, shattered trust, and emotional aspects that shattered my self-esteem because of another persons selfishness. Having the betrayal happen to me personally made me understand the process of cheating. For me it was much less about the physical aspects as it was the lying, deceit, and purposeful manner in which my girlfriend made plans with another individual behind my back.

 

I hope this type of sutiation never happened or will happen to you.

[stillafool]

Oh, darn. I DID read your whole opening post, OP.

 

Those are precious moments I will never recover. Thanks a lot.

 

It seems to be a time honored tradition here on good old LoveShack that a "new" member shows up and posts a very long, detailed saga with the exact same features, only slightly rearranged.

 

"He" is "perfect."

 

His wife is a mess.

 

None of his needs are getting met.

 

He "can't" divorce because of financial considerations (whoops! "Perfect" people don't remain married and / or lie and cheat because of material concerns.)

 

He has a chance for "love" with a wonderful (usually young) prospect.

 

Why shouldn't he go for what he so obviously DESERVES?

 

He means well ... he needs help to understand why it would be wrong!

 

Sound familiar?

 

When the predictable responses roll in, the OP starts criticizing the validity, nature and intent of the respondents, and usually starts to show actual anger. This is not going AT ALL the way it was supposed to! Where is the pity, the compassion and the support for "his" interesting story?

 

One time, the OP of one of these threads even went rather bonkers and claimed that "he" was actually a student who was using the horrible advice given at LoveShack as the basis of some kind of scholarly work

 

And, here is another example of this fine LS tradition.

 

I really wish I could know if all these threads originate from the same computer.

 

 

Bravo! It happens everytime they don't hear what they want to hear to ease their conscience and they never post again.

[viennawaits]

While philosophically harmless cheating is emotionally detrimental. I was in a situation not unlike yours and cheated. My husband was a recovering alcoholic who was drinking again after 8 years. My only advice at this point is to leave. I am also financially comfortable, but I would give up a truckload of money to have the two years spent trying to make this work back. He was in detox again 3 weeks ago, and I am just exhausted by it all. I don't believe you would open up the conversation unless somewhere deep down you feel a moral dilemma. You can make more money; you won't ever be able to uncheat.

[MusicMan1234]

You want an intellectual discussion when you throw around terms like 'materialistically prosperous'. Sloppy use of the English language my friend..

 

Basically, cheating is the ultimate form of rejection, and people don't like to feel worthless.

 

But hey, you wanted an intellectual discussion right? So try this on for size. Not everything can be intellectualized. People have these things called emotions you see, which pretty much irrationalizes human dynamics. You and your wife sound like you both entered the marriage for the wrong reasons. Obviously your careers are more important to you than eachother. If you really value eachother, I suggest communication and an effort to reframe the marriage and your priorities. But i'm guessing your priorities involve your career more so I don't know why i'm bothering. You both seem like people who are into image and appearance rather than substance. For example, trying to appear clever by throwing terms around like 'materialistically prosperous'.

 

So in conclusion, i'd like to summarise the chances of you sparking an intellectual discussion and the likelyhood of your marriage surviving if you don't reassess your priorities in another redundant term; Unrealistically delusional.

[nyrias2]

 

But hey, you wanted an intellectual discussion right? So try this on for size. Not everything can be intellectualized. People have these things called emotions you see, which pretty much irrationalizes human dynamics.

 

Wrong. There is a LARGE literature on irrational behavior in the field of psychology and even behavioral economics.

 

Impact of certain emotions (for example, the need for fairness, or status) can be predicted, and measured.

 

Don't think emotions cannot be studied with the scientific method. It is just a response, like any other. It has a lot of recognizable patterns MANY books have been written about it.

[marriagemalpractice]

Admitted, I only read the first page. My wife had a EA/PA, and I chose to have a revenge EA. Dumbest thing I ever did. If we salvage our marriage it will be a miracle.

 

That said, what I read on the first page was arguing things from the perspective of morality. I'll take a different tack. You obviously want to do it, so I say go do it.... as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequences that come with your actions. Please remember that you can choose your actions, but you can not necessarily choose the consequences. Please be aware that all of the following are very much possible:

 

1) If - no WHEN - your wife finds out, she will drag your name through the mud. Friends, coworkers, family - they'll all know that you are a cheater. She may even lie and exaggerate things to be worse than they already are.

 

2) Your wife will likely make your financial life a living hell. After all, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. She may well take you to court and clean you out to the point where you'll be paying her for the rest of your life.

 

3) If - no again WHEN - your wife finds out, she may act out in ways that could include killing herself. Over 50% of suicides happen when people are on alcohol or drugs, and sounds like your wife uses a lot of alcohol. This, along with the betrayal and hurt infidelity brings, makes this a real possibility. Recognize that people do kill themselves over their spouses having affairs, and "having her blood on your hands" is something that could happen.

 

4) If - no I drive it home again, believe me, WHEN - your friend's husband finds out, it is possible that he will react violently. He may beat you up, he may take a bat to your car, he may even kill you. These things happen all the time, and there's no way for you to know if he will be this sort of guy. But if he's already been physically abusing his wife, there's probably a reasonable chance he'd be willing to come after you physically. Ask yourself if this girl is worth dying for before you sleep with her. Literally, ask yourself this.

 

5) Your friend, after you sleep with her, may become incredibly clingy and jealous. She will eventually demand that you leave your wife to be with her, and any lack of action on your part in that regard is likely to result in her revealing the affair to your wife. She will demand more and more attention as she becomes more and more attached, and it will get harder and harder to juggle your marriage and the affair. ESPECIALLY since she has kids, she will begin to attach herself to you as a provider figure.

 

6) Once outed, especially if your friend's husband comes and makes a scene at your place of work (and yes this does happen), you could lose your job.

 

7) You could get an STD. HIV is the one most people fear, but gonorrhea and chlamydia can do a huge amount of damage too. (For instance, google "gonorrhea" and "septic arthritis").

 

8) You could get her pregnant. No form of birth control is fool proof. If I had a buck for every man who got a woman pregnant when he thought there was "no way it could happen", I'd probably own most of the world's wealth.

 

 

Note that each of these potential consequences are very much real, and very much out of your control. I can't say for sure what would happen to you specifically, but neither can you. So if you want to go forward with this, just be ready to accept what follows.

 

The decision is yours to make.

[MusicMan1234]

Wrong. There is a LARGE literature on irrational behavior in the field of psychology and even behavioral economics.

 

Impact of certain emotions (for example, the need for fairness, or status) can be predicted, and measured.

 

Don't think emotions cannot be studied with the scientific method. It is just a response, like any other. It has a lot of recognizable patterns MANY books have been written about it.

 

I'm aware of this yes. I agree that emotions can be measured and observed, but they're is a world of difference between knowing and understanding.

 

For example, when a client comes in with PTSD and reveals that he is a solider, I will make it clear to them that I do not understand what they have been through and am simply here to facilitate their internal processes. That way I create a rapport with the client based on mutual respect for eachothers position. They understand that I have the knowledge to help, and I understand that I don't understand. The wise man knows that he does not.

 

It's the same with emotions. To a certain extent behaviour can be predicted and observed, but there are always extraneous variables. If there's one thing i've learnt, is that science is quite limited in it's understanding and that the human experience is not a linear thing.

[2long]

Look, I am not here to get validation for my behavior, yet I also don't want blind condemnation.

 

What's wrong with condemning bad behavior?

 

Why is sex with another woman (which, to repeat, I have not yet done) wrong? Why is it cheating?

 

Please help me understand this from an intellectual perspective.

 

You're looking for an intellec2al perspective on a feelings-based subject like infidelity?

 

You need 2 not only understand why having a physical affair is 'wrong', you need 2 understand why any kind of affair is wrong (and you have been having an emotional affair).

 

How do I know you're having an affair already? Because your wife doesn't know. Steve Harley, of Marriage Builders, once said that "an affair is what your spouse thinks it is", but I don't think that goes far enough.

 

Ask yourself: Do you do or say anything with the OW that you wouldn't do or say if your wife was right there with you? I thought so. That's an affair, and it's the lying and keeping secrets when you promised 2 love her and care for her for better or worse that is what's so terrible about what you've been doing and what you're contemplating doing.

 

-ol' 2long

[wheelwright]

I'm aware of this yes. I agree that emotions can be measured and observed, but they're is a world of difference between knowing and understanding.

 

For example, when a client comes in with PTSD and reveals that he is a solider, I will make it clear to them that I do not understand what they have been through and am simply here to facilitate their internal processes. That way I create a rapport with the client based on mutual respect for eachothers position. They understand that I have the knowledge to help, and I understand that I don't understand. The wise man knows that he does not.

 

It's the same with emotions. To a certain extent behaviour can be predicted and observed, but there are always extraneous variables. If there's one thing i've learnt, is that science is quite limited in it's understanding and that the human experience is not a linear thing.

 

Well this post makes me feel warm like I didn't get it all wrong, and then cold because - emotional response that's indefinable.

 

That's therapy isn't it?

 

You're still left somewhere sinking or sailing. Just someone listened kindly.

 

If you are looking for certainty in science, well this right will be a wrong some day. Even Einstein didn't sort it - just took it to the next level.

 

Science helps us do things - like save people's lives or create huge bombs. It is a tool. Quite unusually it is both a practical and abstract one.

 

Morals are very similar.

 

People who feel on very certain moral ground should be aware that there will likely be a paradigm shift which contextualises the morality.

 

Especially in the case of infidelity, which at the estimations we currently hear about is a norm.

 

Statistics etc can't show that much, but we can get a hint from them.

 

What people in current society need for the morality tool is for it to make sense of infidelity so it's not so painful for people.

 

I don't think that will come about by declaring the world is flat which is similar to saying all infidelity is wrong. And we know that it is because any other viewpoint is wrong and not like what we thought before.

 

I am as at the mercy of cultural concepts as the rest of us. I feel bad about my infidelity - it hurt people. I am religious in as much as I believe in wrong and right and God.

 

I do not like it when people assume that I want to justify my A by my ideas - not true. I went through a world is round view change at some point. I think my A was wrong. But I know that this is a culturally interfaced view. It is influenced by LS.

Edited September 8, 2011 by wheelwright

[goodthingscome]

Why is sex placed on such a high pedestal? - I don't know what kind of wedding you had, but read your vows, you made a promise, in front of God and friends/family. Do you not have integrity? Character?

 

Believe it or not, it wasn't the sex that devastated me, it was the betrayal, the lying, being selfish and the total lack of respect for myself and our marriage. That he made decisions about "MY" life without my input/knowledge.

 

Infidelity is about alot more then just "sex". It's about feeling like you don't matter, that you are "less".

 

I hear your pain, but know this, cheating is only adding fuel to the fire. You need to decide what YOU want, then do it. If you want to stay married, then do whatever you can to make it work. Have either of you had counseling? Is she in AA?

 

If she won't meet you halfway, then do the right thing (especially since your "families" are friends) get divorced Quit using the $$ as an excuse, there comes a time when your mental health is more important then holding on to a buck. You can make more money!!!

[Owl]

I do not like it when people assume that I want to justify my A by my ideas - not true. I went through a world is round view change at some point. I think my A was wrong. But I know that this is a culturally interfaced view. It is influenced by LS.

 

So here's another thought.

 

You think that your A was wrong...but...that's a culturally interfaced view.

 

Does it matter if it was culturally interfaced or not? Does it matter if it was influenced by LS or not?

 

Let's talk bottom line.

 

Was your H hurt by your choice to have an affair with another man?

 

Did conducting the affair participate in the destruction of your marriage, and the potential disruption of you children's lives? Of your life? Of your H's life? Or even MOM's, his family, his wife's lives all to some degree?

 

None of those outcomes were caused by LS's influence. Perhaps those outcomes were influenced by society's "view" on cheating...but again...so what? What does that actually CHANGE?

 

Do you think that you will change 'society's view' on infidelity? Do you believe that blaming the 'pain' on 'the culture' is going to lessen the pain for those that feel it? That somehow blaming society for not accepting infidelity is going to lessen the pain that others feel? More specifically...will it lessen your pain, your H's pain?

 

See...I don't get the value of trying to discuss abstract, esoteric hogwash like this.

 

I'm a simple man. Fix the problem...deal with what's in front of you, what's in your scope of control.

 

To me...focusing on the abstract AVOIDS the need to accept responsibilty, and is a way to AVOID dealing with what's in front of you.

 

That's why I guess I just don't "get" these off the wall "questioning" threads with no true, practical purpose.

[nyrias2]

I'm aware of this yes. I agree that emotions can be measured and observed, but they're is a world of difference between knowing and understanding.

 

For example, when a client comes in with PTSD and reveals that he is a solider, I will make it clear to them that I do not understand what they have been through and am simply here to facilitate their internal processes. That way I create a rapport with the client based on mutual respect for eachothers position. They understand that I have the knowledge to help, and I understand that I don't understand. The wise man knows that he does not.

 

It's the same with emotions. To a certain extent behaviour can be predicted and observed, but there are always extraneous variables. If there's one thing i've learnt, is that science is quite limited in it's understanding and that the human experience is not a linear thing.

 

Sure. First of all, most of these models are NON-LINEAR (although i do not think you use the word linear in a scientific sense).

 

Secondly, most systems have noise. Human systems are no different, and there are usually more noise, compared to other physical systems like planets.

 

Understanding the noise, even when you cannot predict behavior 100%, is useful. This kind of science is routinely used in field like business & market, education and economics.

 

Heck, even without any scientific study, LS members often pointed out very distinct and predictable patterns of WSes and BSes. Of course anything with a pattern is better analyzed with scientific methods.

[mzdolphin]

You said it far better than I saren.

 

If I was going to sleep around, my plan would be to tell my wife (of course, it's a moot point in my case). She can either stay with me and roll with it, or leave. But barring physical restraints or emotional blackmail, how is she going to stop me from f__king other women? Same goes with anybody else's spouse.

 

If everybody is in the know, everybody is on even footing. Seems fair to me.

 

This is the main point. When you take religion and people's morals out of it, it still gets down to basic decency. If you are lying to your partner about your sex life, you are not a decent person. My ex MM lived in another state from his wife, told me he was divorced. When I found out he was lying he said "in his mind his marriage was over." Well, if he didn't inform her about what was on his mind, he is no less a cheater than the guy sleeping next to his wife every night.

[confusedinkansas]

If I found out my wife had sex with another man in the past, I wouldn't care as long as she loved me now, didn't deprive me of love and attention then, and didn't catch an STD.

 

I heard this one from my XMM.

He actually said he'd be happy if he found out that his wife was seeing someone else. Then it'd take the pressure off of him. He wanted to leave but didn't want to be the BAD GUY.

 

GUESS WHAT!?? SHE WASSSSSSSS!

 

He darn near needed to be checked into a psych ward when he found out.

 

So there you have it. DON'T say you'd be ok with something when the reality is you don't know how you'll act until you're placed in that exact scenario... AND - Careful what you wish for.........Just sayin'.

[StoneCold]

Why is it that sex in the context of infidelity is an "STD risk"..but apparently not in anyother context? I always thought sex was sex

 

 

After 2 years of being single Johnny met a "nice" girl at the library....

 

Johnny: "Hey I met a girl at the library and I think we will be moving our relationship to a physical level"

 

Johnny's friend: "...... you better not!!! she probably has herpes, chylmidia and the clap and it will burn when you go pee pee"

 

[Mme. Chaucer]

Meanwhile, I believe that our OP is long gone, crafting yet another user name and version of the same old saw to roll out here one day soon.

[rafallus]

If I found out my wife had sex with another man in the past, I wouldn't care as long as she loved me now, didn't deprive me of love and attention then, and didn't catch an STD.

 

Logically, this is automatically defied by very act of cheating.

 

All time spent on fooling around or even fantasizing with other partner could very well be devoted to you instead. But it wasn't. By choice.

 

Yep.