Struggling trying to understand if/why infidelity is wrong

[Ponderous]

Hello All,

I have a hard time understanding infidelity. Something may be wrong with me. However, I just don't get why it's wrong in this day and age.

 

I wanted to philosophically discuss with intelligent people who will read my whole post before jumping down my throat and calling me a jerk or idiot. Please don't tell me I am stupid, please just help me understand why. It is mysterious to me and seems kind of arbitrary. I am not religious, so need to understand it from a secular perspective.

 

Why is it considered the worst thing you can do to a spouse?

 

And before you morally judge me, I have never had sex outside of my marriage. I have been married for 8 years and have not had any sexual contact with other women.

 

A woman who I care about offered herself to me (we're both married). I don't want to say yes, but I can't think of a good reason to say no.

 

My situation? I am a professional who works 50h weeks and my wife is a well paid professional working 80h weeks. We're both in our early 30s, have great incomes, and are very materialistically prosperous. We're both fairly nice looking, have plenty of friends, very outgoing an popular in our circles. We don't have kids. My emotional needs aren't getting met and my wife is happy with me (or so she says). All unhappiness stems from my side. My wife is content to be a workaholic and come home and watch TV, ignoring me. I want a wife and a normal life. I have contemplated divorce, but my wife doesn't want one. It's made difficult by material aspects. I could lose 2 years of salary in a divorce in the sale of our home, so I'm not taking it lightly. Our families are also great friends with one another, so it would affect a few lives. I also supported her through graduate school, so the money lost there weighs on me heavily.

 

My wife isn't the woman I married. She's much more successful, but much more distant. Also, the sex was great dating, but it's cold and much less frequent now. I don't mind the lack of sex as much as the lack of affection and distance between us.

 

Until this year, my wife was a raging alcoholic and verbal abuser. She went on antidepressants and has stopped verbally abusing me. She used to pick a fight with me every night. She still drinks herself into a blackout once a week and we fight about that a lot. She's finally gone 10 days w/o incident and has her first therapy appointment in a week. However, it's less about the bad things that happen and more about the lack of good things.

 

She's also selfish, immature and has morphed into the least giving person I know. She's manipulative to me and her family.

 

If we were living in an apt, I'd leave her. However, the inertia and material consequences make me hesitate. Leaving is difficult. It may be the right thing to do, but it's best to do once you know for sure, especially since there are some non-trivial material consequences. I know some of you are thinking "money can't buy happiness" but losing 2 years of your life's earnings inflicts serious pain...only risk it if you know what you're doing.

 

So bottom line...

 

I am emotionally unhappy. My wife happy with the status quo. Leaving will be expensive and painful. She wants to repair the marriage. She says she loves me daily, but doesn't really show it.

 

I have a close friend who is also in a loveless marriage. We are both attracted to each other and have been friends for a few years. At one point, we deeply loved each other. She was going through physical abuse in her marriage and I was going through verbal abuse. I have been told this is an emotional affair. We have never seen each other naked or touched one another's body in a sexual manner. She kissed me once. It was the first time I've kissed another woman. It was really nice. My wife never kisses me. My wife and I have sex regularly, but I don't feel she loves me. I try hard to please her, physically and emotionally, but she is struggling with her own demons.

 

My friend also helped me when my wife was abusing me and helped restore my self-esteem. We became "surrogate spouses" in a way. My friend is deeply religious, so it was easy to not have an affair because I knew the guilt would devastate her.

 

My friend told me today she wants to have sex with me. She hasn't had sex for 2 years and is tired of her marriage, which she is staying in because of her property situation and her kids.

 

I know it will be physically fulfilling. However, it's easy for me to hold off because I want love and tenderness. Ejaculating in a woman's body is a minor thrill. Everything that comes before penetration is far more fun for me.

 

So my dilemma...

I don't really want to have sex with the other woman, but I cannot give a reason why.

 

Logically, I can think of 3 reasons infidelity is a problem:

 

1. Illegitimate children
   
2. STDs
   
3. Depriving your spouse of love because you're busy loving someone else.
   

I am confident I am not at risk (should I stray) for #1 & #2 due to safe sex and that I trust she has no STDs.

 

The thing I keep hearing is "trust." But, I don't trust my wife now. I fear anytime she goes out, wondering if she'll get home safe and how drunk will she be. Will I have to take her to the hospital for alcohol poisoning? I don't trust my wife too much now.

 

 

#3 is the part that I wrestle with. If I develop a deep emotional bond with another woman, I can see I am depriving my wife of love. However, isn't her workaholism doing that to me? What about her alcoholism? What about her selfishness? Why is it SO much worse and practically unrepairable for me to copulate with another woman than what my wife is doing to me now? My wife doesn't seem to want my love, but this other woman sees all the good in me and wants me and makes me feel desired and loved.

 

I seriously considered marrying this other woman, but we want different things in life. She is religion and I am not. She wants to move far away and pursue a stupid and unrealistic dream. Also, she has 3 kids. If I remarry, I wanted at least 1 kid to be mine and I don't want to deal with 4.

 

Having sex with another woman won't bring me happiness or solve my problems, but while I am waiting for my wife to get her **** together, I don't see the harm. I don't even want to too much because it's scary, new, and I like being self-righteous about being different than ordinary guys....but really?....is a faithful husband any better than an unfaithful one as long as the 3 issues above are avoided? I am torn between avoiding it because my wife doesn't want me having sex with another woman and wondering why I care since she hurts me so often with her misdeeds.

 

So I understand the historical significance, dating back when marriage was about property and not love. Is it just as valid today?

 

If I found out my wife had sex with another man in the past, I wouldn't care as long as she loved me now, didn't deprive me of love and attention then, and didn't catch an STD.

 

So I am leaning towards not having sex outside my marriage because it's new and society tells me its wrong. However, I can give no logical explanation as to why I shouldn't do so.

 

I feel like there's something obvious I am missing.

[Ponderous]

You're not struggling to understand why infidelity is wrong nor are you here to "philosophically" discuss infidelity. You're cheating with a married woman and you know it is wrong, plain and simple.

 

Define cheating? It makes it sound like a game. What does that even mean?

 

I haven't had sex with this woman.

 

 

Look, I am not here to get validation for my behavior, yet I also don't want blind condemnation. Please just help me understand WHY. I understand you think it is wrong.

 

However, I want to know why. I sincerely want to understand.

 

Why is sex with another woman (which, to repeat, I have not yet done) wrong? Why is it cheating?

 

Please help me understand this from an intellectual perspective.

[Ponderous]

Dude:

 

The rest of humanity isn't an ant farm that you can poke at with a stick just to satisfy your curiosity about human behavior.

 

What does that even mean?

 

Tell you what--get yourself married to a cheater and see how it feels for yourself.

 

Then you'll know.

 

 

Well, I have a feeling you feel very satisfied by that response, but it cannot be done, can it?

 

 

Look, I am hoping to understand, not be flame bait or be your punching bag because you had a bad day and I don't understand something you think is just stupid and obvious.

 

I sincerely want to understand. I'm sure there's something wrong with me if I just don't get it. But help me understand why I am stupid instead of just calling me stupid.

 

And if you had actually read the post you responded to, you'd have seen me say multiple times, I have not had sex with anyone but my wife.

[Saul Goodman]

If there is nothing morally wrong with infidelity, why not talk to your wife about your thoughts and guage her reaction?

 

Me? I really don't care either way.

 

Why is sex with another woman (which, to repeat, I have not yet done) wrong? Why is it cheating?

Presumably both you and your wife agreed to be monogamous right? It is a breach of the boundaries that the two of you have set up.

 

Questions answered.

 

My concern of you being a troll is getting stronger....

If P is a troll than the logical solution would be to ignore him until he gets bored. Edited September 3, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[seren]

Seriously if you are struggling to understand if or why infidelity is wrong, I suggest you read a bit more on this side of LS and you might get to understand that most if not all of us who have been a BS, have been hurt tremendously by our partners saying one thing and doing another. Most of us loved the WS, believed that they loved us in return and when the going got tough we didn't think to look to another to get our needs met and most of us tried again and again to fix what was broken in our marriage.

 

Infidelity robs the one being betrayed of the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether they are comfortable or happy to be in a relationship that differs from what they believe it to be. Infidelity involves lying, it involves saying one thing and meaning another. If a marriage is so bad that one has to lie to hold it together, then it needs to end, it isn't repaired by cheating or, if you like, infidelity.

 

I get from your post that your marriage is unhappy, that you are unhappy, then leave, so you lose money, so your wife doesn't want it to end, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, people leave marriages each and every day and survive, people leave when the other doesn't agree each and every day too. If it isn't wrong, then discuss it with your wife, let her know that you want an open marriage, if she agrees then it isn't infidelity but an open marrige, if she doesn't agree, well then you tell her of your intentions to see another which makes it her choice as to whether she stays or not, either way, you are being honest. Nothing really that philosophical about it.

[stillafool]

Hello All,

I want a wife and a normal life.

 

What do you consider a normal wife and a normal life?

I could lose 2 years of salary in a divorce in the sale of our home, so I'm not taking it lightly.

 

My friend is deeply religious, so it was easy to not have an affair because I knew the guilt would devastate her.

She kissed me once.

 

My friend told me today she wants to have sex with me. She hasn't had sex for 2 years and is tired of her marriage, which she is staying in because of her property situation and her kids.

 

Your friend is not that religious. She doesn't mind kissing a married man and telling him she wants to have sex with him. Don't be fooled by her. She probably wants you to leave your wife, get with her and help her take care of her 3 kids.

 

I suggest you and your wife get some type of counseling. First you need to decide what type of marriage you want and convey that to your wife.

[sweetjasmine]

However, isn't her workaholism doing that to me? What about her alcoholism? What about her selfishness? Why is it SO much worse and practically unrepairable for me to copulate with another woman than what my wife is doing to me now? My wife doesn't seem to want my love, but this other woman sees all the good in me and wants me and makes me feel desired and loved.

 

It's not about whether infidelity is worse than what your wife has done. Why does it matter which one is worse? Just because your wife has treated you poorly and you have continuously decided to stay doesn't mean you get a free pass to do whatever you wish.

 

If you cheated on her, and she reacted by filing for divorce and robbing you of those 2 years of salary you're so worried about, would it be okay for her to do that because, hey, you cheated on her, and is it really SO much worse?

 

So I understand the historical significance, dating back when marriage was about property and not love. Is it just as valid today?

 

It sounds like your marriage and the other woman's marriage are both about property and not love. I'm not saying each of you is your spouse's property, but your property and money seem to be the major concern.

 

So I am leaning towards not having sex outside my marriage because it's new and society tells me its wrong. However, I can give no logical explanation as to why I shouldn't do so.

 

I feel like there's something obvious I am missing.

 

You want something logical?

 

How about your wife finds out, files for divorce, and attempts to take you to the cleaners, dragging out the legal fight as long as possible?

 

A logical thing to do would be to actually leave your wife and figure out why you value 2 years' salary over your own mental health, happiness, and well being.

[Saul Goodman]

You said it far better than I saren.

 

If I was going to sleep around, my plan would be to tell my wife (of course, it's a moot point in my case). She can either stay with me and roll with it, or leave. But barring physical restraints or emotional blackmail, how is she going to stop me from f__king other women? Same goes with anybody else's spouse.

 

If everybody is in the know, everybody is on even footing. Seems fair to me.

[Ponderous]

Presumably both you and your wife agreed to be monogamous right? It is a breach of the boundaries that the two of you have set up.

 

If P is a troll than the logical solution would be to ignore him until he gets bored.

 

 

I love the Breaking Bad reference in you screenname, BTW.

 

I'm not a f-ing troll. I will admit I don't see eye to eye with most of the responders thusfar, but I posted for precisely the reasons I said I did.

 

I am not here to argue for fun. I know my question is strange and I don't "get it."

 

My wife breaches my trust weekly by drinking herself nearly into a coma and depriving me of a relationship. Why does society think those are lesser offenses than having sex with another women when your wife doesn't really even want you?

 

Why is sex placed on such a high pedestal?

 

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right. But had I found out my wife had done it to me under the same circumstances, it wouldn't have bothered me too deeply.

[bentnotbroken]

Cute thread. Wonder how it's going to end.

[sweetjasmine]

My wife breaches my trust weekly by drinking herself nearly into a coma and depriving me of a relationship. Why does society think those are lesser offenses than having sex with another women when your wife doesn't really even want you?

 

Your wife breaches your trust weekly and is an abusive alcoholic, so if you cheat, it's all her fault, even though it's totally within your power to solve the problem by refusing to put up with her behavior and leaving.

 

Sounds like a page out of the cheater's moral calculus handbook.

[Ponderous]

If P is a troll than the logical solution would be to ignore him until he gets bored.

 

To be blunt, I am giving up on this...there's just far less of a discussion here than I thought.

 

I thought this was fodder for debate, but either i was mistaken or my post was poorly worded, or the first few responders were more interested in visceral responses than intellectual engagement.

 

It's my first post to LoveShack. Lesson learned.

[Saul Goodman]

You said it far better than I saren.

I just realised that your name is spelt "seren". Saren sounds better ya know?

 

I'm not a f-ing troll.

It's simple logic P. If you are a troll than Clume doesn't have to waste his time with you by giving you attention. If you are real than you don't have to be harrassed by someone accusing you of being a troll. It's a win-win.

 

My wife breaches my trust weekly by drinking herself nearly into a coma and depriving me of a relationship. Why does society think those are lesser offenses than having sex with another women when your wife doesn't really even want you?

 

Why is sex placed on such a high pedestal?

Yep. I'm sure you wife isn't so great (no sarcasm).

 

What does society think of unnecessary dishonesty? If you are going to f__k around, just tell her. Simple. No philosophical discussion needed.

[Saul Goodman]

So because you encountered a few posters who won't sit here and say you're so justified to cheat on your wife and fool around with a married woman, oh the pan is too hot now, right?

 

Yes. I don't really care about the morality (or lack-of) in his situation but I was surprised by his reaction. Anyway, some other posters gave their 2 cents and I guess that he didn't like what he read. My son would use the crude term..."butthurt".

Edited September 3, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[Janesays]

It's wrong because it hurts people. Plain and simple. And just because you have been hurt, doesn't give you a free pass to hurt others. Whatever happened to being the bigger person and being someone who is honorable and loyal? Jeez.

[Saul Goodman]

Your opinion. How about u explain your opinion?

 

You won't get a reasonable answer my dear.

 

Anyway, to stay on topic, what answers have we gotten?

 

1) It causes pain.

2) It involves deceit behind your partner's back. Plays on their trust.

3) There are more honest and constructive alternatives. Such as talking to your partner first. Maybe seeing an MC.

4) Robs the SO of their informed choices.

5) Two wrongs don't make a right.

6) Emotional complications.

7) Breaching of boundaries.

 

There you go...anything I'm forgetting?

 

And how do you have an intellectual conversation when you immediately run off because you get opinions that you don't like? Please.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[stillafool]

OP, if your wife drinks herself into a coma there must be some terrible problems she is trying to escape. That is probably one of the reasons she drinks so much is she is unhappy as hell. Maybe her career is taking a toll on her. I'm sure this is one of the reasons she is not herself. Have you discussed why she drinks so much and what is she trying to escape?

[Ponderous]

There you go...anything I'm forgetting?

 

And how do you have an intellectual conversation when you immediately run off because you get opinions that you don't like? Please.

That was actually a great response.

 

Sorry to "lose my integrity" and respond again, but I was hoping for more like your responses, in particular the last one, which rationally explain your opinion. I couldn't resist giving the positive feedback.

 

I don't particularly care for some of the other posters who try to club you over the head with their views by telling you how wrong yours are, without explanation. I prefer responses where people try to persuade you to their view by either giving thought-out reasons why your view is wrong or reasons why an alternative is superior.

 

I guess I am used to arguing designs from an engineering perspective.

 

I just wanted to respond that I enjoyed your last response.

 

Finally, I concede that my question was probably not a great question to begin with or perhaps poorly worded.

 

 

Perhaps I'll fail to convey my rationale again...but my dilemma was not should I have sex with another woman, but why do I not feel that turning her down is "right?" It if matters to anyone, the post has convinced me that I am asking the wrong questions in the first place.

 

I've been looking up marriage counselors to call Tuesday morning. The bottom line is that if my marriage isn't working, I should stop thinking about this lady and seek a professional's help to get my relationship to where it needs to be.

[Saul Goodman]

If you decide to read this thread again...

 

I actually think that stillafool brought up a good point. Not on topic but kinda important.

 

OP, if your wife drinks herself into a coma there must be some terrible problems she is trying to escape. That is probably one of the reasons she drinks so much is she is unhappy as hell. Maybe her career is taking a toll on her. I'm sure this is one of the reasons she is not herself. Have you discussed why she drinks so much and what is she trying to escape?

You're in an unhappy marriage. For you, one of the main factors is your wife's drinking. There's a couple of ways that you can resolve this but I think that one of your first actions should be to find out why she is drinking if you don't already know. Finding the cause will help lead to some form of resolution. Hopefully a resolution where she doesn't die.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Also, ignore the goon squad if they are bothering you. Shouldn't be too tough.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[Kidd]

The obvious answer that you left out of your top three is that you made a commitment to be faithful to your wife, for life. If you cannot keep your end of the agreement, the ethical thing to do would be to allow her to terminate her obligations towards you as well. There is your philosophical answer.

 

Your comparision with her wrongs would somehow imply that two wrongs make a right. Or that you can justify your breach of the agreement by her shortcomings.

 

The other posters slam you because you are currently in a secret, hidden affair. Your use of words to give some technical definition to cheating that excludes your behaviors sounds like what we heard from Bill Clinton. Conscious or not, it's a page right out of the cheater's handbook. If what you are doing is innocent, you would be able to freely share it with your wife. I suspect she would consider it a breach of your agreement. Your current (and convenient) view that you wouldn't care very much if she did it to you is well, convenient, and the fact is that for most people, it is ridiculously painful to be played and betrayed by the one person in life you thought you could count on...the one person that said they wouldn't do this to you, no matter what.

 

Finally, yes, you asked the wrong question, especially since you've already decided not to make it physical. It's then irrelevant (or perhaps you don't want to admit exactly how much of a struggle this actually is for you). Why ask an internet forum a philosophical question about infidelity if you're not considering it? You should instead be asking about how to heal your wounded wife and marriage.

 

My last two cents...make a clearly communicated break from your emotional affair with the OW. You are making a mess that is going to impact 3 ppl plus children. If you don't see that then LiD is right...you need to keep reading here.

[imagine]

Ponderous,

 

Does this discussion fall under ethics or mathematics?

 

I do believe in God and am a Christian. Now soon as I say this, folk will say that I can only speak from scripture. Sometimes they are right! I am also a polymath- I study everything.

 

I detect that from the mood of your opening letter that you are UNHAPPY and would like ammunition to substantiate infidelity. This is applying maths to ethics to get a solution. Frankly I cannot see how this will happen.

 

Let us focus rather on getting you HAPPY. Would you not agree that this is an ideal situation? Were I a programmer you have stated two things in your opening letter that would detract from this condition:

1. Loss of material wealth.

2. Loss of social interaction between families.

Alternatively were your wife to become more attentive and personally intimate your problem would shrink.

 

I deduce that your wife is also unhappy. She is committed to focus on things outside of marriage by working for stuff. She enjoys her spare time by getting drunk.

 

Right now your lives are a window dressing: You both have stuff are married and have a social group.

 

So what is missing: Intimacy, concern for the spouse, laughter and joy. I do not know which is true but the bottom line is happiness.

 

I suspect that you are loyal to the marriage thus far except for one detail:

Now this is where I refer to my wedding vows- I have contracted to love my wife in all circumstances. Hey, I did not say I would like her all the time because I think you would agree that right now you do not like her at this moment!

 

OW is a separate case and a red herring to your marriage. She needs to contact a female friend and possibly the police. You need to have a permanent NON CONTACT with this woman while you are fixing your marriage.

 

I recommend that you view the articles in "marriagebuilders" and discover what emotional needs that you and wife require servicing. They have a printed list that you both need to complete.

 

Best wishes...

[woinlove]

ponderous, you seem to be skipping over the posts directly addressing your questions, so perhaps you are not serious.

 

If you are serious, read seren's post, for example. Then you will know that if your wife pretends to be a non-drinker, but is secretly getting drunk and hiding it from you, leaving you wondering why your marriage seems empty and lacking in intimacy, and every time you ask her if she has been drinking or mention things that make you think she is, she denies and you wonder if you are just not being trusting enough or something is wrong with you, then that would be like infidelity.

 

The fact that you know your wife is drinking allows you to make an informed decision: do you want to stay married to her or is her drinking a dealbreaker for you? Please tell your wife about your interactions and thoughts on OW so she can make an informed decision about her marriage too.

[2011aug]

OP also need to ask himself where his moral values or principles are. If he's satisfied to live with minimal selected values, then it shouldnt be much of a struggle to go ahead with the PA.

 

Maybe OP has so many faults that they overwhelm his wife, and in her own defense she lashes out. Or, maybe not.

Edited September 3, 2011 by 2011aug

[stillafool]

OP sorry to get off topic again but even if you do decide on a PA, divorce your wife eventually or whatever; please try to get her help for her alcoholism. Tell her family. I've had 2 female cousins die in their early 40's from the disease. She can't go on like this.

[nyrias]

The OP is not asking the right question. Right and wrong .. well that is simple.

 

Cheating is WRONG. By definition. Many here believes that, many in society believes that. No reason is needed. (And in this case, cheating is NOT defined as having sex with another other than your wife, it is defined as having intimacy, including emotional attachments, without disclosing it to your spouse.)

 

Just like some believe taking a life is always wrong.

 

The more INTERESTING question is to examine the consequences from a psychological, and relationship point of view. Since you ask the question, i assume you have NO philosophical beliefs that cheating is wrong.

 

Here are some considerations.

 

You have a OW. So the question is, why keep it a secret? If you tell your wife, you will hurt her. If you don't and she finds out, you will hurt her.

 

In those two cases, do you CARE about the hurt you are putting on her?

 

If she finds out, she may divorce you and you have all the bad legal & financial consequences. Assuming you cannot keep the secret forever, is it better to disclose NOW voluntary (check with ur lawyer) or let her discover it later?

 

You are not properly considered all your "strategic space" (game theory lingo, essentially means all the options).

 

You can:

1) sleep with your OW and keep it a secret.

2) sleep with your OW and NOT keep it a secret.

3) divorce your wife FIRST before sleeping with your OW.

4) NOT sleeping with your OW and divorce your wife

5) NOT sleeping with your OW and keep the status quo

6) NOT sleeping with your OW and work on resolving issues with your wife

....

 

I am probably some combination of things. Ask yourself the consequences of each scenario and decide which your order of preference.