Author Kaplan Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 But BOTH of those are running away from conflict. I agree they're different mindsets, but the first is actually WORSE in my book than the latter. Not wanting to deal with something = running away. But there's no conflict to run away from. Why do you feel the need to psychoanalyze a guy in this situation. Ok so, let's go back to the example of the guy at the bar who buys a girl a drink and chats her up and then leaves when she starts flirting with another guy. Is he avoiding conflict? To me, he's just leaving. He's just not interested anymore, and he's leaving. The chick can't complain about it because she's the one who starting talking to someone else. I can see that a lot of people would respect a guy more if he made an effort to steal her attention back from the new guy. But to me, I don't understand the point of that. I wouldn't want her attention at that point. And it just seems stupid to say something. "Hey what are you doing?" "I'm talking to this other guy because obviously I like him better than you." It's all understood; nothing needs to be said.
zengirl Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Oh yeah, because working it out with this type of woman is totally worth it I'd run too if I were him. But he isn't running-running. If he'd just decided he didn't want to see her, that'd be productive. What he did wasn't productive since he DOES want to see her. Not really - not everything can be reasonably worked out. If accounting more extreme situations, examples may be multiplied: Everything can be discussed. Just running away and not "dealing" is not healthy. Saying, "This cannot be worked out" IS dealing, and I'm fine with that as a trait. I do that all the time. And as I said to the poster above, if the OP doesn't want to date this girl, that's fine. But his behavior was still bad, and her behavior being bad doesn't impact his behavior at all. That's not how things work. Again, I'll put my Kindergarten teacher hat back on and say, "Two wrongs don't make a right." And they never ever will. It would've been more productive for the OP, if they were there on a date, to say something than to run away. Since it was a weird situation, as I said, neither really did anything "wrong." It just doesn't bode well for a future. -If a couple has, say, differing view on kids, breaking up is not running away from fundamental problem? -Is wife beaten by a husband, divorcing him, because she doesn't want to deal with his abusive personality, hence running away? -(outside of relationships) if confronted by a guy with a knife, most sane sources advise you to... run away. Satisfaction "oh yeah, I didn't run away" doesn't matter much, when you're in morgue. Okay, in the first: a break up is not running away! In the second, again, she needs to address it and leave. Leaving is not running away in the sense I spoke of where you're not "dealing." Not dealing is not good. She needs to leave, seek help, and have him prosecuted. That is very MUCH dealing, and it's brave and good. And of course you can physically run away to deal with your physical safety. But not dealing with stuff is emotionally running away, and there's no reason for that. The two are not the same, and any sane person knows that. By running away, I mean "not dealing," as you put it. If there is a problem, whether it's a lunatic wielding a knife or a girl flirting with another guy, it's always best to deal with it. Granted, if the guy has a knife and you're SOL, running away may be dealing with it, but just leaving and checking out is never "dealing with" an emotional situation. It's a defense mechanism, and it's passive-aggressive.
zengirl Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 But there's no conflict to run away from. Why do you feel the need to psychoanalyze a guy in this situation. The conflict was you were upset the girl was flirting with someone else. Whenever you're upset, there's a conflict. Dissonance = conflict. If you weren't upset, you wouldn't have left. You SAID you were upset. So, how can you say there's no conflict?
Author Kaplan Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 The conflict was you were upset the girl was flirting with someone else. Whenever you're upset, there's a conflict. Dissonance = conflict. If you weren't upset, you wouldn't have left. You SAID you were upset. So, how can you say there's no conflict? That's not a conflict. A conflict is like an argument, a confrontation. There was none of that there. It's not a conflict that I was upset. If it was, then I didn't "run away" from it, because I was upset after I left. I took my conflict with me, I didn't run away from it. And it's not passive aggressive. Passive aggressive means doing things to hurt others indirectly. I didn't do anything to try to hurt her. There's no aggressive element to it. I think that you're making way too many psychological diagnoses about me based on this one story.
zengirl Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 That's not a conflict. A conflict is like an argument, a confrontation. There was none of that there. It's not a conflict that I was upset. If it was, then I didn't "run away" from it, because I was upset after I left. I took my conflict with me, I didn't run away from it. And it's not passive aggressive. Passive aggressive means doing things to hurt others indirectly. I didn't do anything to try to hurt her. There's no aggressive element to it. I think that you're making way too many psychological diagnoses about me based on this one story. You don't understand the word conflict, clearly. A conflict can also be internal. And none of this is a diagnosis.
Author Kaplan Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 Now you're insulting my vocabulary. Why are you being so negative towards me? Obviously there can be an internal conflict, and it's even possible to run away from one. But that's not what I was doing. I was "dealing," in my own drunk, confused way. It wasn't something I thought I was doing in the middle of our relationship or whatever you want to call it, it wasn't even something I was doing to end the it. It was something I was doing after whatever we had was over.
rafallus Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Everything can be discussed. Just running away and not "dealing" is not healthy. Saying, "This cannot be worked out" IS dealing, and I'm fine with that as a trait. I do that all the time. And as I said to the poster above, if the OP doesn't want to date this girl, that's fine. But his behavior was still bad, and her behavior being bad doesn't impact his behavior at all. That's not how things work. Again, I'll put my Kindergarten teacher hat back on and say, "Two wrongs don't make a right." And they never ever will. It would've been more productive for the OP, if they were there on a date, to say something than to run away. By running away, I mean "not dealing," as you put it. If there is a problem, whether it's a lunatic wielding a knife or a girl flirting with another guy, it's always best to deal with it. Granted, if the guy has a knife and you're SOL, running away may be dealing with it, but just leaving and checking out is never "dealing with" an emotional situation. It's a defense mechanism, and it's passive-aggressive. No. I believe in "actions speak louder than words", and the message sent by getting away from the person is loud and clear "I don't want to deal with you altogether". At least in my cases. In that, when it comes to some people I've met, trying to talk through any issue with them is like banging your head against the wall. They are fully convinced that they do nothing wrong and "how dare you even point it out?". I don't try to work anything out with them - they are just best served left alone. Maybe they will learn the hard way. Maybe not. Not my business anymore.
Memphis Raines Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 I’ve been dating this girl and we had a little drama last weekend. It should be noted that we were both really drunk on this particular day. So this guy started hitting on her right in front of me and she let him and talked to him and showed all kinds of interest in him. The guy made it obvious that he was hitting on her. I felt like she was flirting, and I was pretty offended so I ditched her. I was drunk and I didn’t have anything to say to her so I just left. good man. The next day we talked about it and I decided that my hazy drunken memory wasn’t trustworthy, and I decided to trust her that she didn’t realize what the guy was doing. oh bull, she knew And I apologized for how I reacted, and probably apologized too much. ok, I take the good man I gave ya earlier back. never apologize for reacting to her disrespectful behavior. Anyway, things went all right between us for a bit but then she mentioned this “hesitation” that she had. She said that she worried that the way I acted over the weekend might be an indication of how I would act in a relationship. so she thinks she should be able to flirt with a guy, especially one that is coming on to her, and you should just sit there and take it like a good little whipped pup? oh dude, if you stay with her, then expect this to happen again, and worse. So I asked her if she wanted to stop seeing me because of it and she said no. So why did she bring it up? To me, I don’t want to date a girl who’s hesitant about whether or not I’m a good guy. dude, it should be YOU that decides if you want a girl that will indicate interest to another guy by flirting with them, AND IN FRONT OF YOU!! Maybe I’m delusional about myself, but my opinion of myself is way too high for me to want to be with a girl who doesn’t think highly of me. I don’t understand why she wants to date me if she thinks I’m a jerk. if she thinks you are a jerk because you reacted negatively to her disrespect, then she is the jerk. Am I wrong in thinking that it’s incredibly messed up for her to let another guy hit on her right in front of me and talk to him while he’s sitting there getting off on the idea of screwing her. no, you are not wrong. I honestly don’t think that she did anything wrong *sigh* she owns you then. but I don’t think that what I did was bad considering what I saw. saw what? you just she didn't do anything wrong. either she did or she didn't. if she didn't, then there wasn't anything to see. think about it. she flirts with a guy that hit on her, and she has YOU thinking that YOU are wrong to be upset about it. well tell you what, if she doesn't think she did anything wrong, and neither do you, I guess you can go off and flirt with girls that want to bang you. think she'll like that? she better given her take on her own flirting.
Author Kaplan Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 Ha ha! I know it sounds stupid, and part of me knows I'm wrong, but I can see her just sitting there talking to this person, talking to that person, not realizing what the guy was saying. I have a suspicion that if I could remember exactly what was said, I wouldn't be so gracious. I don't think it's going to work out with this girl and me. If nothing else, this is just way too much drama for such a short span of time. But I'm gonna try for a bit longer even though I know I shouldn't. If she is this much of a terrible person, then it should show again pretty soon. And then I know it's time to leave. I think she's just sweet and innocent and didn't know what the guy was doing . . . she was probably a virgin when she met me too. Ha ha!
Memphis Raines Posted September 6, 2011 Posted September 6, 2011 Ha ha! I know it sounds stupid, and part of me knows I'm wrong, but I can see her just sitting there talking to this person, talking to that person, not realizing what the guy was saying. "So this guy started hitting on her right in front of me and she let him and talked to him and showed all kinds of interest in him. The guy made it obvious that he was hitting on her" the guy made it obvious, and she showed interest in him. What more do you need? I think she's just sweet and innocent and didn't know what the guy was doing . . . oh you poor boy
dasein Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 You did the right thing, she is successfully lying to you and manipulating you. She is laughing at you inside. What certain female posters don't realize is what a no-win situation this is for guys. No person of quality EVER allows this situation to develop when out with an SO they respect and care about. It is the sign of a sick game that many women feel privileged to play. Don't let them. Show them that there are immediate consequences. I've only had to do the walking out thing a few times in 20 years of dating, and looking back it was always the right thing to do. You will see this in time. Your GF is trash, you can do better.
betterdeal Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) When two men argue, it can end up in a fight - a real fight instead of just interminable nagging or even hair pulling - where one ends up maimed, dead or being arse-raped by Mr Big who's in the with the wardens for the next 20 years. Walking away is a perfectly good response to the situation. You deal with the humiliation and you avoid a fight. Now this girl is giving you more mixed signals: she keeps nagging you about your reaction but she keeps hanging around you. Not sure she can be with someone like you? Well, jog on, love. Go and find someone you can be with. And you do the same. Seriously. She's messing with your head. Move on. Edited September 7, 2011 by betterdeal
Chicago_Guy Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 You both behaved badly, IMO. She probably WAS flirting, but ditching someone is a terrible behavior as well. And two wrongs do not make a right. So, I would say that you have shown that you will run away from any potential conflict (bad relationship trait) and she has shown that she has potential boundary issues (bad relationship trait). As to why she brought it up? Any number of reasons: 1. She really is concerned about the trait you exhibited. (If she has boundary issues, she really may not see what she did as flirting or wrong---doesn't mean it isn't, but means she won't SEE it easily, so walking away was unproductive as well because now it's not about what she did, but you BOTH did crap wrong, and she's going to have a harder time seeing her issue. That's how people work.) 2. She feels guilty and wants to turn it around on you. 3. She likes drama. 4. She doesn't think this relationship will work out. Or any number of potential reasons. Are you wrong to have a problem with her flirting in front of you? NO. Absolutely not. But the way you reacted was wrong. There are both more appropriate and more productive ways to react --- what you did was passive aggressive. If you had been assertive, gotten away from that guy, and then confronted her (in a reasonable manner) by letting her know that you were upset by her behavior, then you could've potentially resolved it. And she would've been the wrong one. But by reacting the way you did, you mixed it up, and now you're BOTH wrong and BOTH have a right to be upset. Mix that with drinking, and you've got a big damn mess. He should have ditched her and shouldn't have apologized - her behavior was entirely unacceptable. Their dating relationship or whatever it is called is over. The girl is probably an attention whore. It amazes me that some women think that they can hit on a guy or be hit on by a guy in front of her boyfriend and that the boyfriend is in the wrong if he complains. No - the girl was clearly in the wrong and she disrespected him. The guy is actually kind of a bitch if he doesn't do something to make it clear that this type of behavior is unacceptable.
Mme. Chaucer Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 Please, guys and girls, don't try to tell me that you've never "let" a person of the opposite sex flirt with you while you were "with" someone else while you were in an "alcohol induced haze." I would venture to say that every single person who goes out to parties or whatever and gets drunk has had this happen. Including, probably, the OP and all the guys who are disparaging the girl in question. How about not going out and getting drunk with your dates, if you have problems with drunken behavior?
Eternal Sunshine Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 I did this and it was completely meaningless
betterdeal Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) How about both of them apologising for drunken nonsense and getting over it? I do know that entertaining myself by flirting with someone else whilst someone I'm with is flirting with someone always results in the water works being turned on. Beats me. Edited September 7, 2011 by betterdeal
Memphis Raines Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 Please, guys and girls, don't try to tell me that you've never "let" a person of the opposite sex flirt with you while you were "with" someone else while you were in an "alcohol induced haze." I would venture to say that every single person who goes out to parties or whatever and gets drunk has had this happen. then your venture at a guess would be wrong. if someone is talking to me trying to hit on me, I may be cordial. But unlike what Kaplan's gf did, I wouldn't show "interest" in the person doing so. and if it became obvious and inappropriate, I would tell the woman that I am with someone. If its just simple conversation in both of our presence, fine, but if it starts to be flirty touchy, and all that garbage, I will make them aware its not wanted. Including, probably, the OP and all the guys who are disparaging the girl in question. again, Kap said his gf showed "interest" in the guy.
dasein Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 Please, guys and girls, don't try to tell me that you've never "let" a person of the opposite sex flirt with you while you were "with" someone else while you were in an "alcohol induced haze." Never, not once in 20 years of dating, no matter how drunk, not even on a date with a non-exclusive woman. The reasons why are very simple: 1. Women are generally not as assertive as men in approaching the opposite sex. Most women will wait until approached rather than take the risk of approaching and being rejected that men are expected to take as a matter of course. It is unusual for ordinary, non celebrity men to be approached and flirted with while out on a date IME (the exception would be when there is woman-woman friction going on between a woman and one of her "friends," and the BF becomes a pawn in their "friendly" games). Probably 10:1 or greater in comparison to how many times females allow themselves to flirt with an approaching male when they should know better. Men don't generally have the same opportunities that women do to flirt with others while out on a date. 2. There is an easy, well-defined line between polite conversation and flirting, it usually involves some degree of touching or animated body language. It's a golden rule no-brainer, if you don't want a date to flirt with others, don't flirt yourself. It's not hard for a thoughtful adult to know the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behavior even while drinking. 3. Most importantly, no woman I've ever dated, not one, without exception, would put up with me flirting with other women. The reason I know this is that they begin pouting, if not actually squawking and making a scene, LONG before any real flirting takes place. I've had women start to pout after I was being friendly and engaging with THEIR HOMELY BEST FRIEND THAT THEY ASKED ME BEFOREHAND TO BE CHARMING WITH... WHILE MY DATE WAS STANDING RIGHT BESIDE ME, whom they specifically wanted me to make a good impression on. Lots of times with slightly different facts. "Well you and so and so seemed to hit it off!" (literally spitting the words out). I used to respond to this kind of gamey BS manipulation, but ignore it now, having experienced it so many times in life to become immune. Men learn that there are consequences for rude, disrespectful behavior towards an SO because we learn that there are consequences even for IMAGINARY bad behavior in female "make up a false reality as it suits us" land. We are held accountable for our actions. If more men did what OP did, his little princess of a GF may have learned this simple life lesson that has evaded her for some reason. There are consequences in life for behaving badly, and no amount of rationalization or blame-shifting (ala you are both at fault) can talk that away. So I know for a fact that if I ever did out and out flirt with a woman in the way so many women feel it is their due to flirt with men while escorted, every single woman I've ever dated would walk right out the door, they overreact to such ridiculous, made-up things, god forbid I ever did the real thing.
Memphis Raines Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 if a gf of mine flirts with another guy, I will have no problem say to her, "wow, disrespectful much?"
Ginger Beer Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 You both behaved badly, IMO. She probably WAS flirting, but ditching someone is a terrible behavior as well. And two wrongs do not make a right. So, I would say that you have shown that you will run away from any potential conflict (bad relationship trait) and she has shown that she has potential boundary issues (bad relationship trait). As to why she brought it up? Any number of reasons: 1. She really is concerned about the trait you exhibited. (If she has boundary issues, she really may not see what she did as flirting or wrong---doesn't mean it isn't, but means she won't SEE it easily, so walking away was unproductive as well because now it's not about what she did, but you BOTH did crap wrong, and she's going to have a harder time seeing her issue. That's how people work.) 2. She feels guilty and wants to turn it around on you. 3. She likes drama. 4. She doesn't think this relationship will work out. Or any number of potential reasons. Are you wrong to have a problem with her flirting in front of you? NO. Absolutely not. But the way you reacted was wrong. There are both more appropriate and more productive ways to react --- what you did was passive aggressive. If you had been assertive, gotten away from that guy, and then confronted her (in a reasonable manner) by letting her know that you were upset by her behavior, then you could've potentially resolved it. And she would've been the wrong one. But by reacting the way you did, you mixed it up, and now you're BOTH wrong and BOTH have a right to be upset. Mix that with drinking, and you've got a big damn mess. No he's not. Simply walking away is the most peaceful thing he could've done other than buy the guy a drink.
Memphis Raines Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 No he's not. Simply walking away is the most peaceful thing he could've done other than buy the guy a drink. agreed. he could have made a huge scene, but he didn't. he could have looked at the guy and said, "you know this is my girlfriend right?" and that would have been reasonable. it would be a fair question to any guy hitting on his girlfriend. and then he could have asked her, "you are my girlfriend, right?":cool:
thatone Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 I’ve been dating this girl and we had a little drama last weekend. It should be noted that we were both really drunk on this particular day. So this guy started hitting on her right in front of me and she let him and talked to him and showed all kinds of interest in him. The guy made it obvious that he was hitting on her. I felt like she was flirting, and I was pretty offended so I ditched her. I was drunk and I didn’t have anything to say to her so I just left. The next day we talked about it and I decided that my hazy drunken memory wasn’t trustworthy, and I decided to trust her that she didn’t realize what the guy was doing. And I apologized for how I reacted, and probably apologized too much. Anyway, things went all right between us for a bit but then she mentioned this “hesitation” that she had. She said that she worried that the way I acted over the weekend might be an indication of how I would act in a relationship. So I asked her if she wanted to stop seeing me because of it and she said no. So why did she bring it up? To me, I don’t want to date a girl who’s hesitant about whether or not I’m a good guy. Maybe I’m delusional about myself, but my opinion of myself is way too high for me to want to be with a girl who doesn’t think highly of me. I don’t understand why she wants to date me if she thinks I’m a jerk. I feel like she’s being unfair by blaming me for what happened because I’m giving her the benefit of the alcohol-induced doubt and she isn’t doing me the same favor. I’m basically believing her over myself, which part of me thinks is stupid. I feel horrible about how I acted (in fact, a small part of me wonders if she isn’t just trying to make me feel worse,) but I don’t actually think that the way I reacted was that bad considering how drunk I was and what I saw. Am I wrong in thinking that it’s incredibly messed up for her to let another guy hit on her right in front of me and talk to him while he’s sitting there getting off on the idea of screwing her. Am I crazy for thinking that’s messed up? To me, if that happens then it’s over, there’s no conversation to be had. But I honestly don’t understand if I’m the only one who would feel that way in that situation. Is it not that big of a deal? I honestly don’t think that she did anything wrong, but I don’t think that what I did was bad considering what I saw. I would have acted differently if I was sober and she flirted with another guy right in front of me, but I would have felt the same. What do you guys think? your response should have been "and if you flirt with another guy in a bar again, i'm going to leave you there with him again" there's really nothing more to say. you let her blame you for her flaws. the first apology you gave her was one too many.
Memphis Raines Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 your response should have been "and if you flirt with another guy in a bar again, i'm going to leave you there with him again" there's really nothing more to say. you let her blame you for her flaws. the first apology you gave her was one too many. exactly!!! Kaplan, run with the words of the wise thatone. man up and quit letting her somehow make you believe this is your problem or fault.
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