whichwayisup Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Violence - I don't know of any proven link. You could meet a single guy who has a crazy ex... It seems tenuous. There are many crimes of passion involving affairs. Like FO gave you one example.. Of course one can meet someone who has a crazy ex, but, let's not compare single/single to married/single. Relationships where two people are available to affairs when atleast one person isn't available, are two different dynamics all together.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 A triangle is the biggie which inherently has more risks to someone's heart, more self esteem hits due to being 2nd. An angry maybe violent bs, risk of losing other relationships due to the disapproval, etc,. I'm very surprised that you question it because given the inclination I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make a list that covered a full page easily. The list would include every risk - and none of them would be exclusive to an A. Triangle? There are plenty of ex dating partners out there. Stalking, assault, murder... happens all the time. No A needed, no M needed. Being 2nd? In some A's that's true. It's also true in other relationships. Just because you're dating someone, doesn't mean they are exclusively dating you - happens all the time. Risk of losing other relationships because of disapproval? As you family members, relatives, friends, coworkers not approving who you're dating? This is exclusive to A's... how? No matter how you slice it, all R's have the same risks.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 And you don't consider lying to and sneaking around on your partner abuse? Just because there are no marks visible to the eye doesn't mean it's not abuse. Then again, like nearly everyone involved in A's, a partner in cheating would find a way to twist and rationalize the situation, at least in their own mind. I suppose it's what helps them look in the mirror. Odd choice. You could have asked me if I considered it disrespectful... but Abuse? No. It isn't abuse.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 The list would include every risk - and none of them would be exclusive to an A. Triangle? There are plenty of ex dating partners out there. Stalking, assault, murder... happens all the time. No A needed, no M needed. Being 2nd? In some A's that's true. It's also true in other relationships. Just because you're dating someone, doesn't mean they are exclusively dating you - happens all the time. Risk of losing other relationships because of disapproval? As you family members, relatives, friends, coworkers not approving who you're dating? This is exclusive to A's... how? No matter how you slice it, all R's have the same risks. I and others in my circle of friends would view someone involved in a A as not worthy of trust since they are already demonstrating their ongoing dishonest behavior.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Odd choice. You could have asked me if I considered it disrespectful... but Abuse? No. It isn't abuse. Emotional abuse is still abuse. And you consider someone treating their partner in a disrespectful manner okay? Well, I guess you would need to in order to rationalize... like I said.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 This insane level of drama is not a typical relationship. Nor is it a typical A. What you see here on LS is does not represent a typical A. It would be unlikely for someone to come here to say "I had an A and it worked out great." or "I had an A, it didn't work out, so we ended it." ... people come here because they are looking for some help or support. You think drama in R's is not typical? Having grown up with sisters, having daughters, knowing countless numbers of women as friends, co-workers, friends of friends... I'd bet you'd be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn't have at least one dating horror story.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Nope. I looked back, and you said the disrespect was NOT okay. But it is okay with you if the disrespect means you get laid. Gotcha.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 From the stories on LS given by OW/OM who seem to have taken a hit in self-esteem, the largest one appears to be not displacing the BS. Usually the devastation and feelings of low-self-worth on LS are exhibited along with the realization that the MM/MW is going to stay M despite giving indications to the contrary. This doesn't happen in other R's? I would think here in a forum, designated for OM/OW, they would make up, ummm... all of the examples we have here, but, I think if you look at any relationship forum, you'll find the stories are pretty much all the same. A secondary one seems to be learning that one has been lied to. Lying can happen in any R, but in a secret A, it is certain that the MM/MW is capable of and willing to carry on that kind of deception. People lie every day. Big lies, little lies. One need not know someone is involved in an A to know the person they are dating is capable of lying. People lie in other R's just as readily.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Are you joking? Serious as a heart attack. Did you not here the news of a woman who drove all night to kill a romantic rival ? She has been found guilty of her crime! You can easily google and find articles of violence and infidelity! Did you hear the news about how often things like this happen when there is no A and no M involved? As I said, things that happen in R's happen in R's with no regard for whether or not that R is an A.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I and others in my circle of friends would view someone involved in a A as not worthy of trust since they are already demonstrating their ongoing dishonest behavior. You and others in your circle of friends might also disapprove of someone in your circle dating someone with a criminal record, or someone who was just released from prison, or you might not like her dating that nasty biker guy, or that geeky nerdy weird guy, or you may disapprove of them dating someone of a different race or religion... Who needs friends like that? I don't choose who my friends date, I don't expect them to do so for me.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Emotional abuse is still abuse. And you consider someone treating their partner in a disrespectful manner okay? Well, I guess you would need to in order to rationalize... like I said. Lying is not emotional abuse. It's lying. It is disrespectful. Disrespectful is not ok, but, respect is earned. An abusive H earns no respect.
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Nope. I looked back, and you said the disrespect was NOT okay. But it is okay with you if the disrespect means you get laid. Gotcha. LOL! Yeah... A's are only ever about getting laid. Even those where no sex is involved.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 LOL! Yeah... A's are only ever about getting laid. Even those where no sex is involved. Keep on spinnin'. But it ain't gonna work. We all see the truth.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Lying is not emotional abuse. It's lying. It is disrespectful. Disrespectful is not ok, but, respect is earned. An abusive H earns no respect. Spinnin' and spinnin'. What came first? The chicken or the egg? LMAO!
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Actually, reading this crap makes it clear what an A robs you of - your integrity.
Silly_Girl Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Did you not here the news of a woman who drove all night to kill a romantic rival ? She has been found guilty of her crime! You can easily google and find articles of violence and infidelity! No, I didn't hear of that, and certainly when I hear stories of violence infidelity is rarely cited. I thought there might be some proof, that's all.
Author SBC Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) Hi Donna, As I have said, I have been reading these forums since December, and I noticed that you have good insight on things but I have often disregarded it, or blown right past it because your demeanor and method of delivery is so abrasive, and often very rude. I see the very thing happening here too. I am not sure why you come across as such as I have not taken the time to read your story, so I apologize. Sometimes life is messy, and I will agree with you, affairs are about a loss of integrity, but I feel that is also tied closely with low self esteem. If you have low self esteem, it is difficult to maintain boundaries which can often represents a lack of integrity. Affairs are also about filling a need that has not been defined, so in a desperate attempt to fill that need, people make choices that are not always the best and can be hurtful to others. I am not giving a pass to people that do this, but it might help to recognize that people doing this often already feel badly already, they just cannot pinpoint why, so being harsh towards them does not help them, or the situation. And isn't that why we are all here, to help ourselves and each other? Edited September 4, 2011 by SBC
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) Hi Donna, As I have said, I have been reading these forums since December, and I noticed that you have good insight on things but I have often disregarded it, or blown right past it because your demeanor and method of delivery is so abrasive, and often very rude. I see the very thing happening here too. I am not sure why you come across as such as I have not taken the time to read your story, so I apologize. Sometimes life is messy, and I will agree with you, affairs are about a loss of integrity, but I feel that is also tied closely with low self esteem. If you have low self esteem, it is difficult to maintain boundaries which can often represents a lack of integrity. Affairs are also about filling a need that has not been defined, so in a desperate attempt to fill that need, people make choices that are not always the best and can be hurtful to others. I am not giving a pass to people that do this, but it might help to recognize that people doing this often already feel badly already, they just cannot pinpoint why, so being harsh towards them does not help them, or the situation. And isn't that why we are all here, to help ourselves and each other? I find that someone actually maintaining a smug, superior attitude about their sneaky, deceitful behavior while they delight in damaging others - in real life I might add - to be much more "abrasive" than a few words of condescension on an internet forum. But that's just me. If you bother to look about this forum you will see I am very kind and supportive to people actually in pain and seeking help and understanding. Edited September 4, 2011 by donnamaybe
Silly_Girl Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I do enjoy how very different the same thing can be perceived. Some good posts. I still don't buy in to the theory that it adversely affects self-esteem. Some it will, some it won't. If you want something from a relationship that it can never give you, affair or not, it will certainly p*** you off irrespective of what it does to the ego.
wheelwright Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 No, not at all. We all make mistakes. But I do believe that a person with good esteem will not be struggling with NC months later. I believer a person with good esteem will not suffer through years of lies and multiple D days, only to cry here, why? why?! WHY!! And I believe that a person with good esteem would never say, he/his actions made me feel bad about myself. Throwing an AP under a bus after DDay is a form of abandonment. Keeping an AP in a EMA for a length of time when it makes them feel neglected - is neglect. Shilly shallying back and forth between an A and a M will make the AP feel confused. I agree that people who involve themselves in a love A are naive to these relatively likely outcomes to some degree. Even if they are aware they decide to follow their heart in a spirit of trust. Despite the OM/OW's complicity, dealing with the trauma of the psychologicaal impacts outlined above is not just about self-esteem. There is a degree to which OW/OM allow themselves to be treated badly, and this is connected to self-esteem, but more strongly to a misdirection in life choices. That is the OW/OM's responsibility. There is also the need to work through the treatment by another which led to some kind of trauma. It is not the job of the OM/OW to take responsibility for this treatment. And any amount of self-esteem will not avoid a negative impact upon being on the receiving end of such treatment. A developed appreciation of equanimity will help though! I think an A can cause psychological problems which were not present before. Any form of bad treatment from a primary R can. Self-esteem is the thing you need to get back on your feet. But you also need time, people in your life you can trust, resilience, to seek out healing where your own powers are not enough, and as you say, to work through any issues from your past which compound the pain stemming from the bad treatment.
MissBee Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Throwing an AP under a bus after DDay is a form of abandonment. Keeping an AP in a EMA for a length of time when it makes them feel neglected - is neglect. Shilly shallying back and forth between an A and a M will make the AP feel confused. I agree that people who involve themselves in a love A are naive to these relatively likely outcomes to some degree. Even if they are aware they decide to follow their heart in a spirit of trust. Despite the OM/OW's complicity, dealing with the trauma of the psychologicaal impacts outlined above is not just about self-esteem. There is a degree to which OW/OM allow themselves to be treated badly, and this is connected to self-esteem, but more strongly to a misdirection in life choices. That is the OW/OM's responsibility. There is also the need to work through the treatment by another which led to some kind of trauma. It is not the job of the OM/OW to take responsibility for this treatment. And any amount of self-esteem will not avoid a negative impact upon being on the receiving end of such treatment. A developed appreciation of equanimity will help though! I think an A can cause psychological problems which were not present before. Any form of bad treatment from a primary R can. Self-esteem is the thing you need to get back on your feet. But you also need time, people in your life you can trust, resilience, to seek out healing where your own powers are not enough, and as you say, to work through any issues from your past which compound the pain stemming from the bad treatment. Excellent points!
SoleMate Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I can't see someone who doesn't already have low self esteem, suddenly developing it simply because they are involved in an A. Hard to understand your comment when it is directly below several posts from thoughtful individuals who explain exactly how the A did, in fact, lower their previously good self-esteem. We've seen both patterns here: 1) People who start out with good self-esteem (although sometimes naive or vulnerable in another way) and have it degraded by an A, 2) People who start out with impaired self-esteem and get into an A, often because of the low self-esteem
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Spinnin' and spinnin'. What came first? The chicken or the egg? LMAO! Running out of things to say doesn't stop you from saying it anyway, eh?
SoMovinOn Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I can't see someone who doesn't already have low self esteem, suddenly developing it simply because they are involved in an A. Hard to understand your comment when it is directly below several posts from thoughtful individuals who explain exactly how the A did, in fact, lower their previously good self-esteem. We've seen both patterns here: 1) People who start out with good self-esteem (although sometimes naive or vulnerable in another way) and have it degraded by an A, 2) People who start out with impaired self-esteem and get into an A, often because of the low self-esteem I don't grasp why it's difficult to understand. There is nothing about a relationship being an affair which dictates it would cause lowered self esteem. There *are* instances where things in a relationship can cause one to lose self esteem, but those instances are not dependent on the relationship being an affair.
SoleMate Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Maybe people think affair drama is ok because they are so desensitized to relationship drama. This stuff is NOT normal or healthy. Yes, a risk [of drama and serious problems] is involved in any relationship. But in an A, it is closer to a guarantee. Very good points. Those who claim that an A is just another form of relationship, similar to and as good as any other , are mistaken. Also, [when one is involved] with a single person, it seems that it is easier to attribute unhealthy behavior to the person, and get out early. In an affair, so much unhealthy behavior is justified and excused because of the "situation" (being married, forced to lie, etc). I believe that most OW/OM would not tolerate the same behavior from a single person. True. This underscores an essential truth about A's - they are built on lies and deception. The lies and deception and being out of touch with reality lead directly to the many serious issues caused by A. Most non-A relationships are NOT built on lies and deception. And therefore they do not necessarily have the automatic problems caused by those factors. (And BTW, if a response is made by the affair booster who claims that her A was not built on lies even though everyone in sight was working hard to deceive the wife, then please accept that your "healthy, honest, respectable" A is far outside the norm and don't bother to reply , "Not my A!" as if that were a valuable data point.)
Recommended Posts