half_ofa_heart Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 As fOM I can relate what MorningCoffee and QuietStorm said (brilliant posts) Self-esteem is not the cause of the problem but rather the consequence. At the beginning of the A, MPs shower the AP with attentions, much more than single dating people would give. Then the AP thinks "oh such a sweet fling, I like her so much but I can handle it" - It has nothing to do with self esteem but rather with boundaries. Then MPs are so talented to make you believe they are enduring so much to keep this relationship with you that you forgive everything (unavailability, weekend with BS, etc) and you think "poor MW look what she is doing for me" They make look themselves like the victim while in fact the AP is the real victim of the situation. So the AP lowers his standards and accepts things he could never accept in a normal relationship. The worst feeling I had was the humiliation ! I felt humiliated and angry each time she had to go back to her H but I kept rationalizing telling myself that one day she would be with me and we wouldn't have to hide and sneak around. Completely agree with you! I'd have to say that my self esteem was at it's highest when MM came into my life. I can honestly say that right now... although its not at its lowest - it's close.
Author SBC Posted September 1, 2011 Author Posted September 1, 2011 East, how are you able to separate the inability to maintain personal boundaries from low self esteem? To me, the inability to maintain personal boundaries is a function of low self esteem. In regards to talent --yes, I agree MPs are talented in making one believe certain things, but in my own instance, I was equally talented in allowing myself to believe these things. Things that everyone else around me who knew of the situation could see was crap. I would venture to say that this is usually the case (not always of course)
sleepessinoh Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 I didnt get into mine because of low self esteem. I had no boundaries. I never had them with singe men either. MM just wanted a friend and I make a great friend!! I can say that self esteem is bruised because of doing this A and doing this to myself. I settled for something that was not good enough for me and for crap I wouldnt take from a single man. I wanted him so badly for my own and often wondered why I wasnt good enough for him to want me for his ow...well duh!! I just got off the OW rollercoaster a couple of weeks ago and the person I have a hard time forgiving is not him, it is me. I ask myself all of the time how the heck did I get here. I asked him how I got here as well. But I can tell you found those boundaries that I have never had. Ending the A taught me those. My self-esteem is not low, but it sure as hell is bruised for now. (this is m 3rd attempt trying to post this...hope it doesnt post 3 times lol...sorry if it does)
sleepessinoh Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Wow, I sure can relate to this and like you've I'm a work in progress. The worst thing is I've always been aware of those twisted thoughts inside my head but yet not aware if that makes sense. I'm absolute sure I will not repeat my prior mistakes but yet I'm a little afraid that I've taken it to the other extreme, as in not even opening myself up to possibilities, but maybe in time when I feel more equipped to discern good vs bad. I'm also a mess of contradictions as from the outside looking in, I don't think that I appear to have low self esteem but obviously I do as I've always felt different because of foo issues. This reminds me of a book I read a long time ago after a break up called Woman Who Love Too Much. I learned about doing that from that book....maybe I need to re-read it again. It is a great book and I got alot out of it...or so I thought
fooled once Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 I think it is because over time, the affair partners expectations get lowered. They end up being okay with treatment that would never be acceptable from a single partner. The married one often starts out by showering the affair partner with loads of attention. Usually a lot of talking and texting, and the affair partner enjoys and looks forward to these interactions. The number of interactions usually dwindles over time and is often peppered with periods of not hearing from the married person, or they don't call when they say they will, etc. They disappoint the affair partner, and don't keep their word on things. Instead of recognizing that they are not getting the attention they need and deserve in a relationship, the affair partner will usually sympathize with the married person's excuses for the limited or delayed contact. The affair partner rationalizes it, and spins the situation to make it easier to live with. The affair partners expecations get lower and lower, and soon they are elated to receive one text, they are excited about one day together, they are content with far less than they deserve. Over time, accepting less than what you deserve can result in low self esteem. Often, an affair goes against the affair partners core values. They love the married person, but hate the situation. They don't really want to be in affair. They are not proud of it. They often hide the fact that their "boyfriend" is married, indicating that they are ashamed. They are alone on holidays, excluded from their lover's events and celebrations. This can often make the affair partner feel marginalized. When a person does something that is contrary to their values, something happens within them that allows them to continue to behave in ways that are against their moral standards. It's called cognitive dissonance. It is when you subconsiously change your values and lower your standards, so that you can continue to do what you want without being overwhelmed with guilt. It's creates an environment where you lie to yourself, and push down your doubts. It is an unhealthy way to cope with a situation that you are not happy about. If you are fine with cheating and lying, or are content with an affair's limitations, this would not apply to you and your self esteem will probably not be affected. Excellent post QS! Totally agree Oh, and by the way, I was never clingy during my A. I'm not a clingy person, as a matter of fact, quite the opposite. So again, you can't put everyone into the same mold as you. A's start for many different reasons and yours happen to start because you had low self esteem. That's not the case for everyone. One more thing, don't mistake venting emotions and healing on this board as placing blame. mourning the loss of an A is the same as mourning any other loss. They are normal emotions and eventually the person comes to "aceptance". agree!!
sleepessinoh Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 East, how are you able to separate the inability to maintain personal boundaries from low self esteem? To me, the inability to maintain personal boundaries is a function of low self esteem. In regards to talent --yes, I agree MPs are talented in making one believe certain things, but in my own instance, I was equally talented in allowing myself to believe these things. Things that everyone else around me who knew of the situation could see was crap. I would venture to say that this is usually the case (not always of course) For me, I am a giver. I have a hard time saying no. It is way important to me that you be happy. I am a very happy person in general and it makes me feel good to give to someone. There may not be a big difference. Not alot gets me down. So for me it is giving way more than I get in return. I needed to develop boundaries that said, I have needs too and you are not able to fufill those. I may be completely wrong but it doesnt feel like low self esteem. I love what I see when I look in the mirror...excluding lately.
Seraph1 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Finding out that I had been so badly lied to and was only 'good enough' to play second fiddle really messed with my head and self-esteem. It was also a lot of confusion. What was the truth and where did the lies begin and end. For the longest time (and sometimes still) I wonder what made him single me out for such a ride? I'm not particularly clingy and I am educated but somehow...I was only ever an AFFAIR in his mind - not an enduring and lasting relationship. I was viewed by him as a bit of fun and someone to keep him company while his wife (the woman he had ACTUALLY committed to) lived overseas. This hurt my self esteem on so many levels and it made me question my boundaries and my intelligence. Not to mention the blame I felt for being so trusting. I know that things weren't all my fault since it takes two...but right after things end...you aren't making a lot of rational sense! I know I wasn't! Worse thing is that it really IS love for us (the OW/OM) a lot of the time and many times I have ended up sacrificing a part of my self-respect for the love of someone who is slowly erroding and busting up all my hardcore beliefs. It doesn't start out that way though...it happens slowly over time. I let my exH do things that I would never have allowed ANYONE else to do but because he was my H and I loved him...I would accept that it was the way things were. We are essentially trained to accept very little from the people were have made a commitment to. It's a mistake to say that Affairs can destroy your self-esteem more effectively than other relationships though. Any relationship can do that.
half_ofa_heart Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 For me, I am a giver. I have a hard time saying no. It is way important to me that you be happy. I am a very happy person in general and it makes me feel good to give to someone. There may not be a big difference. Not alot gets me down. So for me it is giving way more than I get in return. I needed to develop boundaries that said, I have needs too and you are not able to fufill those. I may be completely wrong but it doesnt feel like low self esteem. I love what I see when I look in the mirror...excluding lately. Wow, your words really turned on a light bulb for me. I love giving of myself. Nothing makes me feel better. I volunteer anywhere and everywhere I can with my spare time (not that there's a lot being a single mom) but I do what I can. So I guess MM filled my void of being "needed" as well as wanted. I agree with you about self esteem as well. I love who I see in the mirror (except lately - again agreed) and aside from the A, love every other aspect of my life. So to say, low self esteem is what allowed me to enter into this relationship - I disagree. But, it sure is a consequence.
SoMovinOn Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 I can't see someone who doesn't already have low self esteem, suddenly developing it simply because they are involved in an A. A relationship is a relationship. When it comes to what happens in a relationship, there is nothing significantly different just because it's an A. I can provide myself as an example. I am currently an OM. I assure you, there isn't a person in the world who would describe me as having low self esteem. Mentioning the possibility to anyone who knows me would certainly be met with hysterical laughter! The fallacy of A's causing low self esteem is based on the fallacy that the OW/OM is somehow "second". It's not a competition, so, there really is no first and second place, but... for those who *have* to look at it that way, it's the BS who would most likely be being treated as second best. The OW/OM almost always gets the best of the AP.
Saul Goodman Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I can't see someone who doesn't already have low self esteem, suddenly developing it simply because they are involved in an A. A relationship is a relationship. When it comes to what happens in a relationship, there is nothing significantly different just because it's an A. Really depends on each individual AP and their experiences doesn't it? I've seen some very emotionally solid men and women get involved in affairs. Some managed to stay strong...and others were left changed. What happened to create these "changed" APs? I have no idea beyond speculation. This forum is a good way to get ideas though. Edited September 2, 2011 by Saul Goodman
woinlove Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I can't see someone who doesn't already have low self esteem, suddenly developing it simply because they are involved in an A. A relationship is a relationship. When it comes to what happens in a relationship, there is nothing significantly different just because it's an A. I can provide myself as an example. I am currently an OM. I assure you, there isn't a person in the world who would describe me as having low self esteem. Mentioning the possibility to anyone who knows me would certainly be met with hysterical laughter! The fallacy of A's causing low self esteem is based on the fallacy that the OW/OM is somehow "second". It's not a competition, so, there really is no first and second place, but... for those who *have* to look at it that way, it's the BS who would most likely be being treated as second best. The OW/OM almost always gets the best of the AP. We certainly see a lot of low self-esteem among APs on LS, people who are behaving and/or being treated in a way which makes them feel bad but they have extreme difficulty moving out of that state to a new state. Many said they entered the A feeling happy and confident. In some cases, there may have been some vulnerability or lack of self-esteem at the start they were not aware of. In your own case, you've described how bad it feels to have to hide, pretend to be friendly to MW's BH to not have him suspect, how it feels that he trusts you when he shouldn't. That's quite a contrast to what it feels like to be trustworthy, honest, authentic and have people respond to the real you. In particular, to not have deception surround our closest relationships. Sometimes one doesn't know what price one is paying, including in our feelings of self-worth, until one is really free of the situation that had us behave inauthentically. What other people think is often not a good indicator of what is really going on inside us, because they might only know what we show them. Just think of what MW's BH thinks of you and your trustworthiness, compared to the reality to see the possible disconnect between what other think and the real you. Edited September 2, 2011 by woinlove
rhyme Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Well in my case, I can see it lower my self esteem a tad bit. First off, I didn't know for several months that I was the OW. When I found out, and still wanted to continue seeing him, I looked at myself differently. I had always trash talked women that did such things as sleeping with married men, and here I was doing it myself. Also, I began to think what were my flaws that didn't want to make him outright leave his wife for me? What could I do better so I could win him over? Or what's so much better about her? It haunts my nightmares sometimes, and it hurts when I sleep.
SoMovinOn Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Really depends on each individual AP and their experiences doesn't it? Yes. Everything we talk about depends on the individuals involved. I have not found any group of people who acts with a single mind. I've seen some very emotionally solid men and women get involved in affairs. Some managed to stay strong...and others were left changed. Don't believe everything you see, but, yes... sometimes people change. That a relationship changed them, doesn't mean it being an A was a factor in that. Relationships often change people - for better as well as for worse.
SoMovinOn Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 But see an affair is not a relationship. It's just two consenting people, with one or both of them having others they're cheating on-having sex when they have time for it. Huh? Is this based on some extremely limited experience with A's and absolutely no idea what a relationship is? You have a relationship with your co-workers, the girl at the checkout at the grocery store, your friends, family... In an A you are interacting with another person, of course it's a relationship. Are you aware there are A's in which there is no sex involved? Well of course they wouldn't see you as someone who has low self-esteem, it's because you're hiding it, just like the affair you're currently having with the OW. Participants of an affair know how to compartmentalize their true motives from each other, and the significant others they're cheating on. LOL! Of course, you've read a few of my posts, so who better to know the status of my self esteem! That's because that "fallacy" is true in regards to OM/OW. If they were first or wanted to be treated with respect and as an equal, they would not be having affairs for months to years at a time and they would not be putting their ones who don't know they're being played-at risk for STDs. Don't forget the horns and spiked tail! People who have affairs all grow horns and spike tails. They are only visible to other demon people involved in A's. The plan is to create millions of demon A people, then we will take over the world! <Evil laugh> You say how it's not a competition, yet the BS is being treated like "second best." There's no such thing as second best. There's only one. Yup, and during the affair, the BS ain't it. But you're right it's not a competition because there is never a competition in regards to affair partners and betrayed spouses. A participant of an affair is nothing special. True. Having a marriage certificate doesn't make you special. An affair partner has to duck and hide between the bushes just to get a 10-minute orgasm with the married cheater they're seeing on the low, away from the "mainstream" crowd of everyone they know. When I first started reading this, I thought you were serious. This would make a great stand up routine. You could have an effigy of a demon OW or OM hanging from a tree behind you on the stage! A betrayed spouse is not engaging in covert behavior with another person, they're living their lives instead of screwing over someone else, even though they don't know their partner is screwing them over. There are plenty of BS's living a covert life. They pretend they are married to their spouse, yet, don't really participate in their marriage. Best of what? OM/OW get sloppy seconds.... Let me check the timeline here... Lunch with the OW/OM, then they go home to the spouse who might wake up from their coma and decide they want a little action... I guess you and I have a very different perspective of "seconds" ...and it's a struggle to even see that married cheater who has a family to take care of and bills to pay. Family? Are there always kids involved? So who's really "second best" here? The AP or the BS? During the A? The BS. The AP knows what's going on.
SoMovinOn Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 We certainly see a lot of low self-esteem among APs on LS, people who are behaving and/or being treated in a way which makes them feel bad but they have extreme difficulty moving out of that state to a new state. Many said they entered the A feeling happy and confident. In some cases, there may have been some vulnerability or lack of self-esteem at the start they were not aware of. Exactly. I doubt many of them posted here before their A. "Hi. I'm single, not involved in an A. My life is great and I have awesome self esteem. I plan on continuing to post here and, if I should ever find myself involved in an A, I'll keep you posted on my Esteem-O-Meter status!" In your own case, you've described how bad it feels to have to hide, pretend to be friendly to MW's BH to not have him suspect, how it feels that he trusts you when he shouldn't. That's quite a contrast to what it feels like to be trustworthy, honest, authentic and have people respond to the real you. In particular, to not have deception surround our closest relationships. Sometimes one doesn't know what price one is paying, including in our feelings of self-worth, until one is really free of the situation that had us behave inauthentically. Or... one doesn't measure their self worth by the factors you've indicated. Trust me, my self esteem isn't taking a hit here. If anything would have provided a blow to my self esteem, it would have been being a BS ... and it did for a period, but, not permanently. I am as self assured, cocky and arrogant as I have ever been. ... and why do so many people here fail to see that maybe THAT is how some people are OK with having an A? What other people think is often not a good indicator of what is really going on inside us, because they might only know what we show them. Yup. That's why I stick with my knowledge that my self esteem is fine. I know more about me than anyone I know. Just think of what MW's BH thinks of you and your trustworthiness, compared to the reality to see the possible disconnect between what other think and the real you. Exactly. People have preconceived ideas, often to support their own fantasy version of reality. People who have been hurt by affairs - BS's, OW's, OM's, MM, MW... may very well have taken a hit on their self esteem, or, maybe they didn't have much in that area to begin with ... and I can see how they wouldn't be able to grasp that not everyone has the same experience or feels the same way. ... but, none of that changes reality.
East7 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 East, how are you able to separate the inability to maintain personal boundaries from low self esteem? To me, the inability to maintain personal boundaries is a function of low self esteem. Not necessarily. As I said, eroded self-esteem is a consequence not the cause. A boundary I should have was "Don't touch someone else's wife". It had nothing to do with my self-esteem, I just fell for her and I created in my mind a "virtual situation" pretending her H didn't even exist and she was my new GF. I just kicked off my boundaries for her love. The fact that I felt anger and humiliation followed by arguments each time she went back to H proves that my self-esteem was maybe smothered but still fighting. Also my self-esteem woke up one day and told me to put an ultimatum and to end the A. Settling for less than what someone would expect from a normal relationship, is shrinking your self-esteem to enjoy those few sentimental gratifications of the A. Consequence
woinlove Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 People have preconceived ideas, often to support their own fantasy version of reality. People who have been hurt by affairs - BS's, OW's, OM's, MM, MW... may very well have taken a hit on their self esteem, or, maybe they didn't have much in that area to begin with ... and I can see how they wouldn't be able to grasp that not everyone has the same experience or feels the same way. ... but, none of that changes reality. Agreed. I can't see putting all affairs into the "Affairs never cause or lower self-esteem" or "Affairs always cause or lower self-esteem" box. It seems clear that some people's self-esteem is lowered by affairs, while not for others. Some of it appears to be tied to how comfortable they are with their behavior during the A, although that isn't the only factor. And other personality traits come in, not just self-esteem. From LS, it often seems that the more caring and compassionate people can take a huge personal hit from an A, including having their self-esteem eroded. By contrast, a narcissist might be unfazed even by multiple affairs.
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 Settling for less than what someone would expect from a normal relationship, is shrinking your self-esteem to enjoy those few sentimental gratifications of the A. Consequence See, I think, and for myself only of course, that settling is a result of low self esteem. Someone with good regard for themselves would never "settle" for anything that repeatedly made them feel humiliated or angry
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 Finding out that I had been so badly lied to and was only 'good enough' to play second fiddle really messed with my head and self-esteem. It was also a lot of confusion. What was the truth and where did the lies begin and end. For the longest time (and sometimes still) I wonder what made him single me out for such a ride? This is where I see confusion about a person entering an affair having low self esteem or not. A person with a healthy regard for themselves would never consider themselves only 'good enough' to play second fiddle no matter what anyone else did to them --because a person with good self esteem draws a clear line between what is internal and external. In other words no matter what someone else did or said would not change their own opinion of themselves. Does that make sense?
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 For me, I am a giver. I have a hard time saying no. It is way important to me that you be happy. I am a very happy person in general and it makes me feel good to give to someone. There may not be a big difference. Not alot gets me down. So for me it is giving way more than I get in return. I needed to develop boundaries that said, I have needs too and you are not able to fufill those. I may be completely wrong but it doesnt feel like low self esteem. I love what I see when I look in the mirror...excluding lately. I know I am going to piss people off here, and that is totally NOT my intention, honest. But to me, this screams of low self esteem. Having a hard time saying 'no' is not giving freely. It is giving out of some other reason --could be guilt, could be fear, it could be out of desperate need for approval. But saying yes when you really mean no says your own opinion matters less than that of the other person, in other words, you have put yourself below that other person. The other thing having a hard time saying no does is it lowers your ability to make good choices --can you see how that would be? This is low self esteem. This is what I was. A pleaser, a giver --I thought it made me happy to make others happy. Changing this was one of the things that I said earlier that has felt weird. It feels weird to me (although it is getting easier the more I do it) but I learning to say NO, even when it is my knee jerk reaction to say yes so I can make someone else happy. Changing this is HARD. But is is life changing.
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 And for what it is worth --I am not a professional and I do not pretend to have all the answers here. I am simply someone on my own journey though this hard stuff, and this is something I learned. And figuring out what inside of me led me to make such bad choices has helped me tremendously. So, I hop-e I am not coming across as a know it all, or as holier than thou. It is not my intent. I am just passionate about sharing this because it has changed my life so dramatically from where I was back in December when I first started troweling these forums. And I am sorry I have to individually reply to each person --the multiple quote thingy boggles me
woinlove Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 And for what it is worth --I am not a professional and I do not pretend to have all the answers here. I am simply someone on my own journey though this hard stuff, and this is something I learned. And figuring out what inside of me led me to make such bad choices has helped me tremendously. So, I hop-e I am not coming across as a know it all, or as holier than thou. It is not my intent. I am just passionate about sharing this because it has changed my life so dramatically from where I was back in December when I first started troweling these forums. And I am sorry I have to individually reply to each person --the multiple quote thingy boggles me SBC, I think it is always good to examine why one got involved in an A and I can see your thread is meant to encourage that. It seems that you learned your lower self-esteem contributed to getting involved in an A. That may be true for many others, perhaps even the majority, but it won't be true for everyone. For example, selfishness may play a bigger role and one can be selfish with either high or low self-esteem. Still, it never hurts for someone to consider the possibility of self-esteem issues.
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 what you say makes sense. instead of blaming the other person ( and this could be said to be true for any relationship) why can't people own their own actions and choices. So someone made a mistake and ended up in a relationship that was bad for them? what is wrong with owning that, learning from it, and moving on? why does everything have to be someone else's fault? Because it is really, really hard and terribly scary. And it is tied to deep sh*t. Speaking personally, I had to face some pretty nasty personal demons before I could own my actions. Stuff that has been part of a life long cycle that started in childhood --feelings (inferiority) my parents planted (oh so subtly) in me. And my parents most likely were not even aware of their role in all of this --they just did what they did. I don't blame them, I just accept it as fact, and then work to deal with the fallout of it. But the hardest part was the first step of figuring out that it was ME and not someone else that allowed me to get into an affair that caused me such grief and suffering. This is where outside assistance was most useful for me.
Author SBC Posted September 2, 2011 Author Posted September 2, 2011 SBC, I think it is always good to examine why one got involved in an A and I can see your thread is meant to encourage that. It seems that you learned your lower self-esteem contributed to getting involved in an A. That may be true for many others, perhaps even the majority, but it won't be true for everyone. For example, selfishness may play a bigger role and one can be selfish with either high or low self-esteem. Still, it never hurts for someone to consider the possibility of self-esteem issues. This is what I am going for here --there are people like OWoman. I would think that no one would argue that she has low self esteem even though she has been in multiple affairs. In fact, she underlines my point --affairs DO NOT cause low self esteem. So I am definately not saying that everyone in affairs has low self esteem. But for those here that struggle with NC, or willingly suffer the anger and humiliation --yes, they have low self esteem issues, otherwise they would have no problem saying "see ya ahole!" Because someone with good esteem would never allow themselves to be hurt like that.
xxoo Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Worse thing is that it really IS love for us (the OW/OM) a lot of the time and many times I have ended up sacrificing a part of my self-respect for the love of someone who is slowly erroding and busting up all my hardcore beliefs. It doesn't start out that way though...it happens slowly over time. I let my exH do things that I would never have allowed ANYONE else to do but because he was my H and I loved him...I would accept that it was the way things were. We are essentially trained to accept very little from the people were have made a commitment to. Is this a common truth? It hasn't been my experience. Where does that 'training' come from? Is it learned as a child, or in early romantic relationships? It's a mistake to say that Affairs can destroy your self-esteem more effectively than other relationships though. Any relationship can do that. I agree. But healthy relationships do the opposite--they build you up. In affairs, the cards are stacked against you from the start. It is very likely that you are going to take a hit at some point. The Red Flag is usually right there, from the start, to heed or ignore. I don't think anybody who enters an affair anticipates that--months and years down the line--they will still be in an affair, and feel powerless to end it (powerless to force MP to make a choice, and powerless to walk away). That reality has got to be a hit to the self esteem. How could it not?
Recommended Posts