Author wheelwright Posted September 3, 2011 Author Posted September 3, 2011 And how exactly are we to ensure that what we do doesn't hurt others? What if you already love another? You are hurting someone else. If you can tell me a sure fire way of actually living and not hurting others I'll perk up. Because that would be nice. But we all hurt others in the search or belief that we have the right way. Unless we begin to see that the idea of a 'right way' gets it wrong from the get go. I think that's what I mean to say.
Author wheelwright Posted September 3, 2011 Author Posted September 3, 2011 You're trying to "undermine" simple common sense and ethics when it comes to just being faithful when married and it's all meaningless talk. Can you please give me some meaningful talk by which to draw a comparison?
xxoo Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 I think the same issues surface in both situations. The way it plays out differs. We can learn a lot from considering exactly how we are different if we want to get along. But how it plays out matters. Unless the research was done in the arena of personal relationships, it is extrapolation to assume the same theories would apply in the same ways. For example: I guess what struck me about the theory is that uncertainty avoidance types tend to prefer an unshakable truth perspective. For example, cheating is always wrong is an unshakable truth for many. . I consider myself uncertainty avoidant. But in my personal relationship, unshakable truths are the opposite of how I deal with that. I reduce that anxiety by deeply understanding my partner (who is a bit of a rebel, btw!). Practically speaking, the lying aspect of cheating does directly preclude the goal and comfort of knowing and understanding my partner. So that is a big problem.
Author wheelwright Posted September 3, 2011 Author Posted September 3, 2011 But how it plays out matters. Unless the research was done in the arena of personal relationships, it is extrapolation to assume the same theories would apply in the same ways. I don't have great affiliation to research. There has been research done here, but what resonates with you is the important thing. I extrapolate - that seems OK. It works,
xxoo Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 I don't have great affiliation to research. There has been research done here, but what resonates with you is the important thing. I extrapolate - that seems OK. It works, The point is that extrapolation does not always work, and we could be discussing something that has no basis in reality at all. Luckily, scientists aren't the "roll with it" types!
rafallus Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 And how exactly are we to ensure that what we do doesn't hurt others? What if you already love another? You are hurting someone else. If you can tell me a sure fire way of actually living and not hurting others I'll perk up. Because that would be nice. But we all hurt others in the search or belief that we have the right way. Unless we begin to see that the idea of a 'right way' gets it wrong from the get go. I think that's what I mean to say. So, is it OK to intentionally hurt others, because you may be accidentally hurting others right now? It would be like: It's ok for me to pull a knife and stab somebody, because I am already killing them a little anyway, in that I'm breathing out carbon dioxide, and too much of carbon dioxide can suffocate a person. Therefore, I'm contributing to killing them a little all the time, so what's the problem, if I'll just speed up the process? ]:->
xxoo Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 And how exactly are we to ensure that what we do doesn't hurt others? What if you already love another? You are hurting someone else. If you can tell me a sure fire way of actually living and not hurting others I'll perk up. Because that would be nice. But we all hurt others in the search or belief that we have the right way. Unless we begin to see that the idea of a 'right way' gets it wrong from the get go. I think that's what I mean to say. When you go to extreme lengths to avoid causing manageable hurts (say, admitting that you've developed feelings for another, and don't know what to do about it....), you are at risk of causing MUCH deeper, damaging hurts. I don't have the right way. I believe there are infinite "right ways" for each individual and couple to discover. But there are also, undeniably, "wrong ways"--actions that are highly associated with relationship failure.
nyrias Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 So, is it OK to intentionally hurt others, because you may be accidentally hurting others right now? It would be like: It's ok for me to pull a knife and stab somebody, because I am already killing them a little anyway, in that I'm breathing out carbon dioxide, and too much of carbon dioxide can suffocate a person. Therefore, I'm contributing to killing them a little all the time, so what's the problem, if I'll just speed up the process? ]:-> OK is a strong word. But people hurt, psychologically, others, and their love ones all the time. Yelling, verbal abuse, criticizing, financial infidelity, and other types of secrets ..... So i would not say it is ok. On the other hand, it is also silly to assume just that because you don't think it is ok, it won't happen. In fact, all these things happen very frequently. It is just a matter of degree. Even infidelity has many shades & greys, that results in many different levels of hurt.
rafallus Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) No. I'm not talking whether it's ok to cheat in general (and if everyone thinks so). I'm talking about this specific justification. Say: 1. What if someone cheated because other partner cheated first, they stayed, because they hoped they can deal with it, but as it turned out they couldn't? 2. What if someone cheated, because other partner was continuously denying any intimacy, without leaving any room for mediation? 3. What if someone cheated because they thought "I probably hurt them a little every day anyway, so what is the difference if I hurt them by cheating?" Is there marked difference between first 2 and third one? To me there is. I believe first 2 could drive otherwise reasonable person to cheat, I just don't buy the last one, unless someone has some sort of sociopathy going on, then pretty much anything goes. Edited September 4, 2011 by rafallus
Steadfast Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 This is supposed to mean they believe in a certain 'truth', they expect there to be expressed and reliable rules of conduct re behaviour, and react negatively if this set of beliefs is shaken. Conversely, there are supposed to be other types who 'roll with it' more. For whom truth is more circumstantial, and who expect a more uncertain and variable set of beliefs among peers etc. Can 'roll with it' mean 'to hell with it' instead? I guess it all depends on which side of the coin you're on. Far different for the betrayed than the betrayer. In my life I am forced to 'roll with it' to a certain extent because the people in it all have a right to their own freewill. Right or wrong. And there is a right and wrong. No getting around it. No intellectually explaining it away. People do try however, and given enough time even the wildest lie can become reality to the liar. This however, does not translate to real life. The whole world is based on a certain set of inalienable rules or factual function; from how electricity works to how our bodies process food and oxygen. In these areas, we are 'forced' to believe the rules because there is no other choice. But when it comes to life and the decisions we make in it, there's leeway and room for debate because we have the freedom and opportunity in us to do so. A perfect example is writing down these thoughts of wonder and question on a device that works under a strict balance of function. We depend on that function because it is engineered to be dependable. If the rules many apply to life were accepted in other parts of working society, no car would be safe to drive and no building would be safe to walk into. No food would be safe to eat, no sidewalk safe to walk on. Our minds are allowed to wander because they are designed to do so. That doesn't change reality. Those who accept and understand these things are the people that people depend on. Those who try to justify lying, selfishness, fear or any of life's various pitfalls are doing so on someone else's dime. It's time to get real.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Great post! I think infidelity is a bad thing because it HURT ME TO THE CORE. I can, on an intellectual level, understand developing feelings for another. That hurts, but that is life and it does happen every day. There are no guarantees in any relationship. What hurt me more is the daily lying and deception needed to maintain the SECRECY of the relationship, not the relationship itself. Why did a love relationship have to be kept secret from ME? Now that's controlling and condescending behavior. Disrespectful and cowardly too in that I was allowed, no, ENCOURAGED to operate under false assumptions and make life choices based on those false assumptions. That's a calculated action by two people to undermine a third, and that's bad. It really has less to do with a rigid ethical or moral stance, or uncertainty avoidance. It's as basic as what we teach toddlers. Just play fair, period. Great post Spark! Yes, I have seen a select few on LS claim a BS is hurt because their ego was bruised. I think it has more to do with the knowledge that the one person who promised to be the one you could trust above all others conspiring with an unknown third party to f with your life in a MAJOR way for an extended period of time.
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 And how exactly are we to ensure that what we do doesn't hurt others? What if you already love another? You are hurting someone else. If you can tell me a sure fire way of actually living and not hurting others I'll perk up. Because that would be nice. But we all hurt others in the search or belief that we have the right way. Unless we begin to see that the idea of a 'right way' gets it wrong from the get go. I think that's what I mean to say. R's end, and someone could get hurt. No one is disputing that. But when you compound that necessary hurt with the UNNECESSARY hurt of carrying on an extended A on your way out of the R, complete with all the lies and gaslighting it entails, you have now purposely added extra hurt where none was needed. No one expects you to stay in an unhappy R. That would be hurting YOU. But don't pile on the extra hurt of an A on your partner.
Turtles Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 R's end, and someone could get hurt. No one is disputing that. But when you compound that necessary hurt with the UNNECESSARY hurt of carrying on an extended A on your way out of the R, complete with all the lies and gaslighting it entails, you have now purposely added extra hurt where none was needed. No one expects you to stay in an unhappy R. That would be hurting YOU. But don't pile on the extra hurt of an A on your partner. Ah, so which is more hurtful? a) Hubby leaves you for hot chick b) Hubby leaves you because "I don't love you anymore" Is it (a) because of the broken trust, etc. Or (b) because it's a more personal failure?
donnamaybe Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Ah, so which is more hurtful? a) Hubby leaves you for hot chick b) Hubby leaves you because "I don't love you anymore" Is it (a) because of the broken trust, etc. Or (b) because it's a more personal failure? You completely, and perhaps purposely, missed the point.
nyrias2 Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 No. I'm not talking whether it's ok to cheat in general (and if everyone thinks so). I'm talking about this specific justification. Say: 1. What if someone cheated because other partner cheated first, they stayed, because they hoped they can deal with it, but as it turned out they couldn't? 2. What if someone cheated, because other partner was continuously denying any intimacy, without leaving any room for mediation? 3. What if someone cheated because they thought "I probably hurt them a little every day anyway, so what is the difference if I hurt them by cheating?" Is there marked difference between first 2 and third one? To me there is. I believe first 2 could drive otherwise reasonable person to cheat, I just don't buy the last one, unless someone has some sort of sociopathy going on, then pretty much anything goes. "OK" is a very subjective judgment. Ok for you, may be 100% despicable for another. Certainly there is more of a reason to cheat in (1) & (2) (revenge for 1, to fulfill an unfulfilled need for 2). However, more of a reason, or even a more acceptable reason is not always make an action "ok". And that is also highly dependent on culture & the person. For example, is it ok to beat your spouse if you discover he/she has an affair? It is NOT "ok" for most in the US, but in middle eastern country, you can kill your spouse with impunity. So yes, the motivations behind cheating are different in those three cases. That much is obvious. Whether it is "ok" depending on if the person who judges take motivation into account. Arguably, at least in the current legal system, intentions matters (thus, there are 1st & 2nd degree murder). So it is certainly possible to judge cheating based on motivations.
nyrias2 Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 R's end, and someone could get hurt. No one is disputing that. But when you compound that necessary hurt with the UNNECESSARY hurt of carrying on an extended A on your way out of the R, complete with all the lies and gaslighting it entails, you have now purposely added extra hurt where none was needed. No one expects you to stay in an unhappy R. That would be hurting YOU. But don't pile on the extra hurt of an A on your partner. Why not? If you are ENDING the R, he/she will no longer be your partner. Would you actually CARE about the person if you are ending it? And when you say "unnecessary", unnecessary to whom? And it is not clear to me that in every situation, an exit affair will hurt more. Letting someone falsely believes that you leave him/her for a false reason may not hurt as much as the truth, as long as he/she never finds out.
xxoo Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 Why not? If you are ENDING the R, he/she will no longer be your partner. Would you actually CARE about the person if you are ending it?. Breaking up does not mean that you stop caring for a person. You can care for them as the person you've known and loved. Or, if that isn't happening, you can at least care for them as a fellow human being. When you share children, you continue to care for that person as an extension of your love for your children. Their wellbeing affects your children's wellbeing. No reasonable person wants their child to see their other parent suffer.
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