Trying to live with reconciliation after betrayal...

[mv6458]

I think Van's on the best track he can be at the moment, given that he's willing to consider reconciliation with her.

 

If reconciliation is something he wants to keep on the table...he can't just boot her out right now and then consider it as a possibilty later.

 

So...for now...he starts down the reconciliation path, but keeps the divorce option open as well. He sees how things go for now...but if she changes her attitude, refuses to do something that he requires...he's still got the divorce option open.

Exactly what has happened in my situation Owl. I tried reconciliation and he never fully committed to it. No transparency, only excuses why I shouldn't expect that from him. I finally realized he doesn't want to end things with the OW. I left him and am meeting my attorney next week to proceed with things. Why should there be any question in your mind if she really wants the marriage or not? I'm not willing to live that way and hopefully Van's not either! Good luck.

[ComputerJock]

The only way you will ever know if she slept with him is by having her take an unexpected lie detector test. But be prepared if she has said/lied and said no but the test says yes. Don't tell her you are going to have her take the test, arrange everything, the take her there, walk in and have her take the test. If she won't take the test, then you have your answer.

[dreamingoftigers]

I think Van's on the best track he can be at the moment, given that he's willing to consider reconciliation with her.

 

If reconciliation is something he wants to keep on the table...he can't just boot her out right now and then consider it as a possibilty later.

 

So...for now...he starts down the reconciliation path, but keeps the divorce option open as well. He sees how things go for now...but if she changes her attitude, refuses to do something that he requires...he's still got the divorce option open.

 

This was pretty much what I was going to mention.

 

You don't have to make your mind up all at once.

 

You can head in a direction and decide that you were going the wrong way later.

[Owl]

Divorce is a must or his wife will continue to cuck him after everything dies down.

 

Hard for us to KNOW that as an indisputable fact from this side of the internet. He's the one who knows her, and knows the situation far better than we do. It's up to him to make the choice on whether or not he's willing to risk that as a possible outcome or not.

[Vanhandle]

Owl & DOT, that’s exactly where I’m at and my reasoning. Mentally, I have prepared myself to pull the trigger on divorce. But since I’ve agreed to reconcile and give it another shot, I won’t kick her out (or walk)…yet. I am wary; I am vigilant and conscious of everything she does…action-wise, transparency-wise and mood-wise. That’s the best I can hope for at the moment because unfortunately I cannot read minds. Whether she admits she did it, is pointless because in MY MIND she did it so I don’t need to HEAR it. Now do I forgive and move on with reconciliation or do I say the hell with this and divorce? As you can see I have decided to do the latter, work on myself…but NEVER forget. If it works then fabulous and if it doesn’t then I’ll take this as a life lesson.

 

Regarding polygraph: That’s an absolute no go. As I have said before, she is a proud and stubborn woman and doing this will be the ultimate humiliation for her…even if she is lying. I know her and she would rather shoot herself than agree to do certain things. This is one of them. But, thanks for the suggestion Richard Friedman and others.

 

Update on what she’s been up to since her return:

She has been doing IC as well as seeing a therapist for depression, fatigue and stress. The diagnosis is that she has had an extreme hormonal imbalance since the birth of our first child and has been suppressing it ever since. (I will attest that right after my son was born, our sex live plummeted severely, she lost her libido, became easily irritable and always complained of fatigue and stress…not trying to defend her…just saying.) She’s been prescribed with anti-depressants and something else to balance her hormones. So far she has been completely transparent about everything she does. She doesn’t hide her phone anymore and hasn’t changed her pass-code. I monitor her email and have not seen anything suspicious. Even the secret one she created months ago. All I see is the usual work and her dance related stuff. I’m always reconciling what I glean from tracking with what she tells me and so far…everything checks out.

 

Even though she has mood swings (and readily admits it), she is affectionate and always interacts with me. There is the odd day here and there where she’s super b*tchy, but otherwise ok. The other day I asked her what exactly is she feeling regarding our relationship. She said that she’s going through a roller coaster of emotions lately. One minute she wants to do things (new job, study, perform with her dance group) and next minute she’s depressed and doesn’t want anything. I asked her if she’s committed to rebuilding our marriage or is she having second thoughts and wavering. I made it clear that I need to know so that I can get out and start a new life without her. She responded that she does not have second thoughts, is 100% committed to the relationship and has no intention of giving up. She said she realizes that she has issues with herself and needs to work on them. She feels that right now she loves me but not like it was at the beginning. She expanded on that by saying that she feels the lust/feelings she had before our first-born and that she doesn’t want to lose that feeling. She wants us to rediscover what we had without analyzing too much…just to go with the flow and hope it rebuilds our foundation. She says she realizes that I cannot easily trust her again and she accepts that. She wants me to take my time and make peace with myself.

 

Regarding the affair:

She intimated that she felt a special energetic connection with this person. It was exciting, new and made her feel alive for the first time in a long while. She feels that people come into our lives for a reason. In hindsight, she feels that this happened as way to jolt our marriage and make us better. Some divine intervention mambo jumbo. I called bull crap on it and that she’s trying to justify it thru some philosophical twist. She said that she is not trying to justify the affair and that it was wrong but rather that the feelings she had were real and she cannot deny they happened. She admitted that she had a choice to stop before it got out of hand but didn’t because the feelings were too intense. Once she started lying, she couldn’t stop and gradually became this ‘other’ person. She felt that at the time we were drifting apart and that I didn’t give a damn. She said that was the primary reason she was so reckless…that she thought I didn’t care about us and therefore wouldn’t care if she had feelings for someone else. It was a very revealing discussion on her part. She said things that were very hard to hear; like her feelings towards him, what they talked about, why she did certain things deceptively, and what she had in mind throughout this affair. Very painful but necessary if I want to go forward with reconciliation.

 

We are going away to a hotel for the weekend. Other than vacations, this will be the first time we will be alone since our daughter was born. She seems to be very excited about it. The whole week she’s been compiling a list of things to do…restaurants, clubs, wine bars, etc. Really excited and very vocal about it.

 

I’m still taking it one day at a time. I have my really bad moments and then when we are all together everything looks blissful.

 

We shall see…

[Chi townD]

Whether she admits she did it, is pointless because in MY MIND she did it so I don’t need to HEAR it

 

Actually, it's not pointless. You have doubts that you're not getting the complete story and your mind on the matter has gaps in it. Sooner or later, your mind is going to fill those gaps with something called "mind movies" to fill those holes. And you'll be asking questions to see if those "mind movies" are correct. BS can ask questions for YEARS if they feel they're not getting the complete story.

 

Then, perphaps, you may start to resent her. Telling yourself, " She doesn't love or respect me enough to come clean with me." It could happen.

 

Your going to go on a ride. It's called "the roller coaster of emotions". One minute, you're happy as a clam, the next your crying your eyes out. One minute you can't imagine your life without her. Then, the next minute you can't stand to look at her. You'll be laughing one minute and screaming the next. Be ready for it.

[mv6458]

Van, I know in my situation if my H would have had a discussion with me about his EA like your wife did it would help me heal and respect him a little better. He has never disclosed any of their conversations, thoughts, feelings or anything else about it to me. No matter how much I have beggged him to. All he does is tell me I need to get over it & stop asking questions. So I understand how that discussion has helped you and I hope things work out for you.

[Lexygirl]

Vanhandle, hypervigilance can definitely come about after any traumatic event or series of traumatic events and this is definitely considered a traumatic event for you. I think it's a coping mechanism in order for us humans to try to regain control of our lives after the event left us feeling so out of control.

 

You also talked about being numb at one point as well which means you are just going through normal reactions...

 

I urge you to see a therapist at this point because you shouldn't need to go through this alone and the therapist will help you to work through everything you are going through which will help speed up your healing process. It's imperative that you feel safe to talk about your feelings to someone who can help you sort it out.

 

As far as day to day... try to take care of you... Don't neglect your needs right now.. doing so makes stress exponentially worse.

TC

[drifter777]

 

Regarding the affair:

She intimated that she felt a special energetic connection with this person. It was exciting, new and made her feel alive for the first time in a long while. She feels that people come into our lives for a reason. In hindsight, she feels that this happened as way to jolt our marriage and make us better. Some divine intervention mambo jumbo. I called bull crap on it and that she’s trying to justify it thru some philosophical twist. She said that she is not trying to justify the affair and that it was wrong but rather that the feelings she had were real and she cannot deny they happened.

 

See bolded - this is a huge red flag and reveals your wife's true colors. She is NOT sorry for what she did. She may be sorry that what she did hurt you, but that is simply another way of saying she is sorry for being married to you.

 

You say you called bullsh*t on her lame excuse, but you need to find out whether she is really willing to admit that what she did was wrong. That having an intimate relationship with OM was a selfish, hurtful thing to do and nothing good came from her affair.

 

 

I have my really bad moments and then when we are all together everything looks blissful.

 

This is typical and to be expected. What you need to examine is the origin of your "really bad" and your "blissful" moments. Are your bad moments the result of something she does or says, or are they the result of the overwhelming feeling you have that she continues to lie about what she did? Are your blissful moments the result of your desire to magically get past her affair and put the whole thing behind you? I'm not saying any of these feelings are right or wrong, I am saying that they need to be examined and openly discussed with your wife.

 

You may not want to believe this, but your reconciliation is doomed unless both of you are willing to face reality and openly discuss all aspects of the affair. Or maybe you do believe this but deep down you are afraid to hold her feet to the fire and risk having her walk out. If this is the case your wife will sense your fear and insecurity and this will feed her resolve to continue lying and, possibly, continue or resume seeing OM. It's really on you to get tough and do the hard work and make the hard decisions that come with attempting true reconciliation. A legitimate (although unpopular on this forum) option is to simply accept her for who she is and know that she is likely to cheat again. That means stuffing your feelings into a magic bag and tossing them into some dark corner of your mind. Many people do this with varying results, but it is an option.

[moonlight4]

I'm still following this thread, and only post when I really feel the need to add my input.

 

Ok, first of all, as a former WS, many things have changed for me in the last 6 months since H and I decided to reconcile and make a go of this. It's not just about being transparent and allowing the other person reading emails, and texts, it's about being completly open about what happened during the affair, and what is going on at the present. At the beginning of our reconciliation, it was hard for me to share all the sorrid details of my affair, and no, I didn't want to talk about it, just sweep it under the carpet and just make it all go away and get back to our regular life. But my H refused to allow me to do this, and came at me hard. At the beginning it was still all about me, and what I went through, the pain I felt. But as time went on, and the fog left, I realized that I was absolutely crazy to make such a terrible decision, and it discusts me now to the point I cannot even read the Otherman/woman forum. I totally disagree that marriages need a "jolt" to make their marriage stronger (I did in the beginning tho). Who needs that kind of pain in their life. I feel that nothing comes from an affair, absolutley nothing good anyway.

 

Van, I would seriously question that response from her, or I would wait it out and see if she changes her mind once the fog has lifted and she realizes the the long term pain she has inflicted on her marriage and kids. My kids are still suffering.

 

Good luck, and seriously, you need all the details of her affair whether you want to hear them or not, the images in your head will kill you.

[Chi townD]

Sounds like you are doing everything you can just to accept your story. Im not sure if you really want to know the truth. You still do everything on her terms, like the lie detector test.

 

You need to take control. She cheats on you, leaves the country to be with the guy, leaves your children, completely disrespects you and you punish her by taking her on vacation.

 

You need to make her work. She just got back from a vacation that should have ended your marriage. Do not reward this behavior

 

He's try to reconcile with her. Will, he have a hard road ahead of him, OH YEAH! But Van is hypervigulant at the moment, but I question on how remorseful and willing she is to work on it. I mean, if she said she'd do anything to gain back his trust, then she shouldn't back down from the polygraph.

 

Van, how has your wife been acting? Is her attitude that of a completely remorseful woman? Or is she like, "Whew, dodged a bullet on that one!"

 

I hope that he takes advanaged of going away this weekend to talk about it, especially with the kids gone. She probably thinks that it's a mini vacation with all the prepping she's doing.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Chi townD

[rowell2024]

See bolded - this is a huge red flag and reveals your wife's true colors. She is NOT sorry for what she did. She may be sorry that what she did hurt you, but that is simply another way of saying she is sorry for being married to you.

 

You say you called bullsh*t on her lame excuse, but you need to find out whether she is really willing to admit that what she did was wrong. That having an intimate relationship with OM was a selfish, hurtful thing to do and nothing good came from her affair.

 

I agree. From what she's said, and her quickly planning activities for the weekend hotel and being vocal about it, indicates she wants to quickly sweep this under the rug. I see very little, if any remorse. Remorse is one of the cornerstones for reconciliation. Without true remorse, this cheating behavior will return in the future. And I also see that Vanhandle hasnt installed any computer monitoring software like a keylogger, and is only checking known email accounts.

 

I would be VERY wary about her trying to rug sweep right now.

[sadcalifornian]

His marital dynamic is such that he rather just settles with the fact that his W is back home with him. He is just not an alpha type, I guess. Well, whatever works for him...

[Owl]

His marital dynamic is such that he rather just settles with the fact that his W is back home with him. He is just not an alpha type, I guess. Well, whatever works for him...

 

Statistically...what is the ratio of "alpha males" to "betas" in human population?

 

I can't speak for humans, but I know for wolves and such, typically it's somewhere around a 1:20 ratio or so.

 

Just curiuos...is every single man who claims to be an 'alpha' truly an 'alpha'? Again, doesn't seem likely statistically. Seems like there would be far, far more beta than alpha, yes?

[Owl]

Gotta say...you guys all raise some good points.

 

He does need to make it very clear that he's not willing to let this "slip under the rug".

 

It needs to be brought out into the light, discussed, addressed, and dealt with.

[Richard Friedman]

 

Regarding polygraph: That’s an absolute no go. As I have said before, she is a proud and stubborn woman and doing this will be the ultimate humiliation for her…even if she is lying. I know her and she would rather shoot herself than agree to do certain things. This is one of them. But, thanks for the suggestion Richard Friedman and others.

 

Why should her feeling humiliated even come into this? After the nonsense she's pulled, she can't say anything about honor or good faith. She should be jumping through hoops to put you at ease and help you cope. If she can't give up some of her "pride" after what she's put you through, what does that say about her? Moreover, what does that say about you? It's like a general capturing one of his officers in enemy territory, in enemy uniform, with transcripts proving she's been passing information, but taking her back into the fold and taking her word that she didn't pass a particular piece of crucial info(have sex). She

- went there despite your threat of divorce

-took items meant for sex and

- you knew from her chats with the friend she intended to do something physical.

If you take her word(which she's broken repeatedly) that she consummate this affair after all she risked, it is the very definition of insanity. I'm sure if you were one one of us you'd think you are the biggest fool on earth.

 

I'm convinced now that you don't want the truth. You'd rather believe a lie than have your illusion of loving faithful wife shattered. Your willing to ignore anything to believe she's a good woman who made a mistake, and carry on your nice suburban life. I'll just say this. If you can come to terms with the fact that your wife did have sex with this guys, and is is continuing to bs you about this crucial fact, then go ahead with this reconciliation. I can't judge a guy who wants to be with his kids. But please don't delude yourself that sex did not happen. You're smarter than that.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Richard Friedman

[SadDazedConfused]

Speaking from my experience in regard to my own actions, it does seem like she is trying to move on and push all of this into the past. To focus on the here and now and trying to make your relationship in the here and now better and not have to deal with the bad things that happened in the past. I did the same thing, but in my situation I was the one who wanted to leave, and my husband was so concerned with getting me to stay, he didn't delve further into the information he discovered about me seeing another man. I poo poo'd it and he let it go in order to concentrate on me staying and making us better. I too would have absolutely refused the polygraph, but only because I had things to hide.

[SadDazedConfused]

I fully believe she had sex with the OM. As the other posters have said, why else would she have brought all the sex related items??? It doesn't add up.

[stillafool]

Regarding polygraph: That’s an absolute no go. As I have said before, she is a proud and stubborn woman and doing this will be the ultimate humiliation for her…even if she is lying. I know her and she would rather shoot herself than agree to do certain things. This is one of them. But, thanks for the suggestion Richard Friedman and others.

 

I don't care how much pride she has or had; she should be willing to take the test for you. That is the least she could do for you since she traveled so far for that other man. What about the "ultimate humiliation" you have had to endure.

 

Even though she has mood swings (and readily admits it), she is affectionate and always interacts with me. There is the odd day here and there where she’s super b*tchy, but otherwise ok.

 

Super b*tchy? You should be the one who experiences mood swings and being super grouchy. She acts as if everything is back to normal.

 

She feels that right now she loves me but not like it was at the beginning. She expanded on that by saying that she feels the lust/feelings she had before our first-born and that she doesn’t want to lose that feeling. She wants us to rediscover what we had without analyzing too much…just to go with the flow and hope it rebuilds our foundation. She says she realizes that I cannot easily trust her again and she accepts that. She wants me to take my time and make peace with myself.

 

She doesn't want alot of analyzing because she it the one under the "hot light". Why shouldn't you analyze everything and she should be willing to do so without getting in a bad mood. She is the one who owes you.

 

Regarding the affair:

She intimated that she felt a special energetic connection with this person. It was exciting, new and made her feel alive for the first time in a long while.

 

So what happens the next time she feels bored? Is she going to find another man to make her feel alive and excited? Given her past actions this needs to be talked about and analyzed.

 

She feels that people come into our lives for a reason. In hindsight, she feels that this happened as way to jolt our marriage and make us better. Some divine intervention mambo jumbo. I called bull crap on it and that she’s trying to justify it thru some philosophical twist. She said that she is not trying to justify the affair and that it was wrong but rather that the feelings she had were real and she cannot deny they happened. She admitted that she had a choice to stop before it got out of hand but didn’t because the feelings were too intense.

 

Good for you for calling bull crap on this. How can her affair jolt your marriage back into shape when she had a choice to stop it but admits her feelings for him were too intense. You do know she is not over him yet and that is probably one of the reasons for her mood swings and the need for antidepressants.

 

She felt that at the time we were drifting apart and that I didn’t give a damn. She said that was the primary reason she was so reckless…that she thought I didn’t care about us and therefore wouldn’t care if she had feelings for someone else.

 

So when you practically begged her not to go on this trip and were threatening divorce she actually thought you didn't care about the marriage and didn't care that she had feelings for someone else. Oh, okay.

 

 

We are going away to a hotel for the weekend. Other than vacations, this will be the first time we will be alone since our daughter was born. She seems to be very excited about it. The whole week she’s been compiling a list of things to do…restaurants, clubs, wine bars, etc. Really excited and very vocal about it.

 

 

Why shouldn't she be excited, this is another vacation after she just came off of one? Van I hope you know what you are doing. Is she doing anything for you personally to try to make this up to you? From your last post it sounds like she is doing everything to get herself together.

[SoulStorm]

Your wife is not being completely honest with you. People who try to push on and rugsweep simply are trying to minimize what they did. While your wife will admit she was wrong..she is not being forthcoming. She is all the way in Cuba with her love interest and she doesn't have sex with him?? After all the pining and telling you she will divorce you if she didn't go?

 

She did it and is now trying to bury it. Maybe you are too and if you are then that is your cross to bear.

Her actions now are of someone who got what they wanted and now wants to fix what she had. She got her chance to cake eat and took it.

You are a more gracious man than I. The moment she went to Cuba with what I knew..she would have come back to divorce papers. I know..easy to say..hard to do..but she really disrespected you and will now do all she can to get back into your good graces. However..she already got away with it in her mind. She is now just going to pacify you realizing that you could leave and she will be missing out on a good thing.

[sadcalifornian]

Statistically...what is the ratio of "alpha males" to "betas" in human population?

 

I can't speak for humans, but I know for wolves and such, typically it's somewhere around a 1:20 ratio or so.

 

Just curiuos...is every single man who claims to be an 'alpha' truly an 'alpha'? Again, doesn't seem likely statistically. Seems like there would be far, far more beta than alpha, yes?

 

Well, I don't think any of us has clear guideline as to how to differentiate alpha vs. beta. So, it would be pointless to bring statistics into this. Also, in wolf's case, it's not so much "alpha", but it is rather the top wolf, the one and only, gets to have all females. So, it is quite different.

 

Here, we deal more in terms of the domineering nature by either spouse in the context of marital dynamics. In Van's case, I don't know this is how he has been all his life or how he has accepted to be due to many factors in the marriage. In either case, he certainly cannot be viewed as the alpha male in this marital relationship.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Van, I'm happy you are working to reconciliation. I however am not happy how you're wife is reacting. Do I believe her? No..... Would I ask for a Lie Detector? No.... Doesn't matter at this point. What has happened is behind you. You can't change it whatsoever. Get tested? Sure, why not, though sure it'll be negative. Means very little.

 

The good news as I have said is that OM is 17 years younger and in Cuba and probably on to his next mark waiting to get out of there and citizenship (sorry calling a spade a spade).

 

Where I have an issue is your spouse still is not being overly affectionate or wanting to do everything for you, which is usually what happens upon reconciliation. Seems she is waiting to catch you "screwing up" so she has reason to revert to her bad behaviour and excuses.

 

What's happened to the "Best Friend"? From what you write they are still together at class and she maybe advising her.

 

Why aren't you two in MC? In IC she could be talking about how terrible you are. There she is telling her story and hearing what she wants to hear. In MC she has to face you and can't lie or bend the truth.

 

By the way sex drops plenty when the first is born and even more after the second.... No surprise there:laugh:.

 

Can I ask have you been intimate since you decided to give it a second go?

 

One last thing..... You say this is your first weekend away since your baby was born???? Yet she has gone on multiple trips with her friend(s) without you. Sorry if I say she has been incredibly slefish for quite a while. Isn't the point of a mini-vacation between spouses the chance to be alone together and do the "nasty"?????

 

While I believe this affair is now behind her, I don't think she is fully committed yet.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Vanhandle]

Please bear with me coz I'm typing on my damn iPhone...

 

I am NOT deluding myself about whether she did it. I know she did it, I just prefer not to HEAR it. Weird I know but knowing myself I think I wouldn't be able to continue to reconcile.

 

She has been forthcoming about what happened except for the sex part of course.

 

TooDamn, that is exactly my approach. It's happened, I know it's happened and now I have look forward with an eye to the past. She has been very affectionate but also kind of distant. As if to see how I react. We have been intimate and it has been quite hot and heavy. Don't know what to read into that. Some would say "oh that's coz she got from someone and now she's exhibiting her new skills" or something to that nature. Im not dwelling on it

too much.

[Vanhandle]

The vacation she's gone without me was the one march that started this **** and this last one. The other one was right after dday when we went on our anniversary cruise to Hawaii and a recent one to San Francisco with friends. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Please bear with me coz I'm typing on my damn iPhone...

 

I am NOT deluding myself about whether she did it. I know she did it, I just prefer not to HEAR it. Weird I know but knowing myself I think I wouldn't be able to continue to reconcile.

 

She has been forthcoming about what happened except for the sex part of course.

 

TooDamn, that is exactly my approach. It's happened, I know it's happened and now I have look forward with an eye to the past. She has been very affectionate but also kind of distant. As if to see how I react. We have been intimate and it has been quite hot and heavy. Don't know what to read into that. Some would say "oh that's coz she got from someone and now she's exhibiting her new skills" or something to that nature. Im not dwelling on it

too much.

 

You are doing the right thing. Ignore those who keep pushing the past and hammering away at it. Yep it should be hot, she has a lot to make up for.

 

Pulling for you.