bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) I've read so many posts about people saying you should talk about the relationship before having sex for those who want a committed relationship. However, I really don't see why talking about it right afterwards is a big problem and I think it better. why: As I see it: Talking about the dating/relationship before sex ensures you are both on the same page, but if you talk about it before sex and they say I don't want a relationship with you and only you just yet, then what? Would you keep dating casually and ask again later? In my mind its put you in a very awkward position if they say no. They might want to keep dating other people indefinitely. They might feel rushed because the relationship hasn't really gotten that intimate and you're already wanting to be dating only each other. If you talk about it right after sex, well you both have had sex (probably fun for both people) and you both have an idea if you are both sexually compatible. Now if you talk about the relationship after sex, it really does warrant some discussion because you have now got about as intimate as it can get. If the person is not interested in a relationship or wants to date other people you can either keep the relationship in limbo if you don't care that much about the person and just have casual sex (I wouldn't but some people might) or move on (something I would do) In this scenario of talking after sex, you can't really argue about waiting a bit longer because the 'whatever it is' is already intense. If after sex they still want to date other people, its a clear indication of the type of person you are with (for good or bad depending on your style, but its clear) I suspect anyone still dating after sex is likely not that into you. However anyone holding off on relationship status before sex might really like you, but wants to take it slow (and they mean it because they won't have sex either) Edited August 31, 2011 by bluenightowl
Cypress25 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 BEFORE! Right after sex is the worst time to discuss such things. It makes you look like an opportunistic bastard who wanted to make sure he got laid before dumping the girl. You're assuming the girl will say she doesn't want to be exclusive. And you don't want to hear that before you have sex, because then you won't get to have sex. So you wait until after, because even if she says something you don't want to hear, at least you got laid once. Then you can dump her, satisfied that you didn't miss an opportunity for sex. But what if she does want to be exclusive and you don't? Then you'll have sex with her only to break her heart right after. but if you talk about it before sex and they say I don't want a relationship with you and only you just yet, then what? Would you keep dating casually and ask again later? You could, or you could end it right then and there. The first option would require a bit of patience. The second option would mean you don't get to have sex with her ever. But both options are a lot more honorable than deliberately waiting until after sex, when women are the most vulnerable. They might want to keep dating other people indefinitely. That could happen whether you have sex with her or not. Basically you're saying that having sex with her and then finding out she doesn't want to be exclusive is better than not having sex with her and finding out she doesn't want to be exclusive. How does having sex first make it better?
Orianne Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I think it would be better before sex. I know I'd feel used if I found out a guy didn't want a relationship after I slept with him.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) BEFORE! Right after sex is the worst time to discuss such things. It makes you look like an opportunistic bastard who wanted to make sure he got laid before dumping the girl. You're assuming the girl will say she doesn't want to be exclusive. And you don't want to hear that before you have sex, because then you won't get to have sex. So you wait until after, because even if she says something you don't want to hear, at least you got laid once. Then you can dump her, satisfied that you didn't miss an opportunity for sex. I think we need to back up here. You have to keep in mind the person (man or woman) wants to date exclusively. They are looking for a loving, caring relationship and this is why they are communicating with the other person. If the persons intentions were mainly about sex, I really doubt they would ask at all. As you say it might force the issue and limit them to having sex only that one time. I agree with Orianne and you however that asking before makes things very clear and I definitely think if you are worried about getting heartbroken after having sex, then you should talk about it before. I'm assuming though there are people (men and women) that would not be heartbroken (but likely disappointed) to talk about it sometime shortly after sex and to get a negative answer. At that point they can decide to stay or move on. That could happen whether you have sex with her or not. Basically you're saying that having sex with her and then finding out she doesn't want to be exclusive is better than not having sex with her and finding out she doesn't want to be exclusive. How does having sex first make it better? The point of getting sex or not, is not the point so much as the level of investment in the dating and when you have sex, its a significant milestone to many people. I do think that after sex, it should be more or less clear if you want to date this person exclusivity or not whereas until the point of sex, I think many people will want keep their options more open and so it might be premature to discuss it. To me, if you meet someone who still wants to date other people after you had sex, that's a very clear signal about their level of investment in you. Before sex, peoples levels vary a lot depending on interest and the amount of time spent together, so it might be harder to tell if the other person is ready date just one person. Perhaps I'm not getting my point across well. Edited August 31, 2011 by bluenightowl
rafallus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I don't see it happening before sex. Without having anything going on, you essentially put other person on the spot. And if other person feels pressured, whole thing isn't happening. And I mean neither sex, not relationship - because who would like to get with someone so pressuring, when there are fun people in the world? Hell, after one sex, it still may not be enough. I'd take a few months of having at least a decent idea, what kind of person she really is. You're assuming the girl will say she doesn't want to be exclusive. And you don't want to hear that before you have sex, because then you won't get to have sex. So you wait until after, because even if she says something you don't want to hear, at least you got laid once. Then you can dump her, satisfied that you didn't miss an opportunity for sex.What if she doesn't want to be exclusive yet, but wants to keep seeing you and see what happens? Pretty common occurence, in fact.
oaks Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 As I see it: Talking about the dating/relationship before sex ensures you are both on the same page, but if you talk about it before sex and they say I don't want a relationship with you and only you just yet, then what? Would you keep dating casually and ask again later? In my mind its put you in a very awkward position if they say no. If you have that talk you do need to be prepared for the other party to say "no" or "I'm not ready yet". Yes, it might be awkward, but don't end the conversation there and probe a bit further to find out what the other person wants and what they think about how the dating is going so far. If you think that sex is going to be the game-changer in going from dating to a relationship then you could talk about that, too!
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 I'd take a few months of having at least a decent idea, what kind of person she really is. That might be the case, but usually if you are having sex, and don't want any sort of exclusivity for months, the other person might get terribly heartbroken if you keep your options open to play the field and later decide this isn't what you want. I don't see why anyone can't just date one person once sex is involved if you are really want a relationship.
zengirl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Talking about the dating/relationship before sex ensures you are both on the same page, but if you talk about it before sex and they say I don't want a relationship with you and only you just yet, then what? Would you keep dating casually and ask again later? In my mind its put you in a very awkward position if they say no. To me, it's way more awkward AFTER sex than it was before. I don't think of it as something the person can "say yes" or "say no" to. Instead, I consistently express where I am with the relationship, what I want from it, and where I want it to go, both with my words and actions. And I only date someone who's comfortable with where I am and on or close to the same page. Thus, it's a natural progression. For me, exclusivity happens prior to sex as part of that natural progression --- by the time I want sex, I know I want an exclusive, full, complete relationship with that person (I don't have sex early, in general, for that reason). And since I'm consistently expressing where I am and what I want, the other person knows that too. I don't sit someone down and put them on the spot---but I find if I am being upfront with what I want from the relationship, the other person will either do the same or give up sufficient red flags (secrecy, discomfort with what I want, etc) that I will change my mind. It's really not something I've ever found difficult. That said, I think it's likely different from a male perspective because many women will expect a man to "ask" for exclusivity and have been taught to hide their feelings away until he does. That seems. . . like a bummer. I deal with no such socialization in dating men, and I don't have that socialization myself. If the person is not interested in a relationship or wants to date other people you can either keep the relationship in limbo if you don't care that much about the person and just have casual sex (I wouldn't but some people might) or move on (something I would do) For me, it's WAY easier to move on before sex. And in any situation where someone didn't want a relationship with me after I knew I wanted one with them and it had been a reasonable amount of time (which is less, generally, that it takes me to be ready for sex), I would move on. If you're potentially fine with finding a casual sex partner instead of a relationship, I think waiting until after sex is a good call. That's not my style is all. In this scenario of talking after sex, you can't really argue about waiting a bit longer because the 'whatever it is' is already intense. I would say exclusivity (seeing only me) is such a basic step that, unless someone is asking for it on the first few dates, if you like someone, you'll say "Yes" if you're looking for a real relationship with anyone. You'll give it a whirl. The people who won't say yes either aren't into you enough or aren't sure if they want to give up variety to settle down. In either case, that guy would not be for me, so there's NEVER any argument from my perspective.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I've read so many posts about people saying you should talk about the relationship before having sex for those who want a committed relationship. However, I really don't see why talking about it right afterwards is a big problem and I think it better. why: As I see it: Talking about the dating/relationship before sex ensures you are both on the same page, but if you talk about it before sex and they say I don't want a relationship with you and only you just yet, then what? Would you keep dating casually and ask again later? In my mind its put you in a very awkward position if they say no. They might want to keep dating other people indefinitely. They might feel rushed because the relationship hasn't really gotten that intimate and you're already wanting to be dating only each other. If you talk about it right after sex, well you both have had sex (probably fun for both people) and you both have an idea if you are both sexually compatible. Now if you talk about the relationship after sex, it really does warrant some discussion because you have now got about as intimate as it can get. If the person is not interested in a relationship or wants to date other people you can either keep the relationship in limbo if you don't care that much about the person and just have casual sex (I wouldn't but some people might) or move on (something I would do) In this scenario of talking after sex, you can't really argue about waiting a bit longer because the 'whatever it is' is already intense. If after sex they still want to date other people, its a clear indication of the type of person you are with (for good or bad depending on your style, but its clear) I suspect anyone still dating after sex is likely not that into you. However anyone holding off on relationship status before sex might really like you, but wants to take it slow (and they mean it because they won't have sex either) Talking before... for all the reasons others have mentioned. I also think there are a TON of things you can TALK about regarding sex to determine basic compatibility. TONS of things you can do short of intercourse too. Yes, this requires some experience, self-awareness, honesty (not to mention, discipline) from both people. But these are all qualities I'd prefer from anyone I'd even think about having an exclusive relationship with. I've tossed many men who I was exceptionally compatible with sexually... but they failed these other tests... tests that I could have very easily discerned before getting in bed with them. ... and to be honest, maybe twice in my life have I ever been terribly disappointed in bed with someone. Those too, could have easily been sussed out in any number of ways before having sex. Long story short... having sex early and before discussing and learning about someone seems very lazy to me and too risky.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 That said, I think it's likely different from a male perspective because many women will expect a man to "ask" for exclusivity and have been taught to hide their feelings away until he does. That seems. . . like a bummer. I deal with no such socialization in dating men, and I don't have that socialization myself. Its interesting because many men expect the woman to ask as a sign of interest in them since often the men do the pursuing, so its a way for women to express interest in them. Personally and esp. with online dating I think it doesn't really matter who brings it up first
sm1tten Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 With the exception of just one relationship, the "talk" has come after sex for me. But there's never been any doubt in my mind that it was going there; it's been a natural progression from neither of us dating anyone else, then sleeping together, then officially stamping it as an exclusive sexual and dating relationship. It's always been within the first few dates, too, but it never feels rushed. If I am ever wrong about where it's going (the person doesn't want a relationship) then I may or may not continue dating them. That depends on what I am looking for or interested in with that person. I'd feel disappointed if we didn't want the same things, definitely, but I can move on fairly quickly from short term relationships even when sex is involved.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) With the exception of just one relationship, the "talk" has come after sex for me. But there's never been any doubt in my mind that it was going there; it's been a natural progression from neither of us dating anyone else, then sleeping together, then officially stamping it as an exclusive sexual and dating relationship. It's always been within the first few dates, too, but it never feels rushed. If I am ever wrong about where it's going (the person doesn't want a relationship) then I may or may not continue dating them. That depends on what I am looking for or interested in with that person. I'd feel disappointed if we didn't want the same things, definitely, but I can move on fairly quickly from short term relationships even when sex is involved. I would think in most cases where two people are not dating anyone else, then have sex.. it would an easy progression to the idea of being exclusive. I think though its when you have two people and one is dating several people and the other isn't dating anyone else. This is really the scenario where its gets tricky, because one person needs to ask and the other person has to make a change from dating several people to just one. I could definitely see this as a problem for someone who is happily dating someone, but has a hot date lined up with someone else. Then the first asks to go exclusive. But if in the same situation and the two of you had sex, I think the person dating someone else really has to make a hard decision esp. if asked after sex, and it will either advance or not. If they want to continue to date other people, then its very clear to both sides. The possible exception is having sex too soon. I think if you had it on date one or two, neither party really knows each other enough to know if they are right for each other, and asking after sex might be very confusing because the other person really just had sex too soon and it might not be fair to pressure them into a relationship just because they both had early sex. Thus yet another reason to avoid early sex unless you are both really sure you want the same things. Edited August 31, 2011 by bluenightowl
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Long story short... having sex early and before discussing and learning about someone seems very lazy to me and too risky. Yes, good point.
sm1tten Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I think it also depends on when/how I found out that they were dating others as to whether I'd ask for or expect exclusivity. And it would depend on whether I found their reasoning valid enough for me to want to continue - i.e. not wanting to rush into anything and therefore slowing the relationship down - if I liked them enough and wanted to, then I could do that. Now, say I am the one who is dating other people and the man is the one who is dating just me. This happened to me when I was kind of so-so on two guys at once. As it turned out, neither wanted to exclusively date me (or so they said), it was just timing-wise they had no other offers. If they had wanted to just date me, I would probably just let them go because I think that no one is really "okay" being the second/third/fourth possibility when they've expressed that they want to be number one, no matter what they say. As it happened, I started to feel like it was pointless dating anyone I was ambivalent about and dropped them both. I also think that being "exclusive" means something more serious to other people than it does to me - for me, it just means we aren't seeing other people. It doesn't mean it's a boyfriend/girlfriend thing (yet) and it doesn't mean it's serious (yet). We're seeing where it's going without the distraction of other people. To that end, I don't have a problem having early sex because I am in part using that experience to discover whether the person is "right" for me, whether it be right in a short or a long-term sense. People like Zengirl work the opposite way - they determine the rightness before the sex happens because they are essentially always looking for that long-term, serious relationship and want that kind of deeper emotional connectivity before the physical.
zengirl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I also think that being "exclusive" means something more serious to other people than it does to me - for me, it just means we aren't seeing other people. It doesn't mean it's a boyfriend/girlfriend thing (yet) and it doesn't mean it's serious (yet). We're seeing where it's going without the distraction of other people. To that end, I don't have a problem having early sex because I am in part using that experience to discover whether the person is "right" for me, whether it be right in a short or a long-term sense. People like Zengirl work the opposite way - they determine the rightness before the sex happens because they are essentially always looking for that long-term, serious relationship and want that kind of deeper emotional connectivity before the physical. FTR: To me, exclusive means the same it does to you, though, as I said, I don't sit down and define exclusivity unless we're defining a BF/GF type relationship. I think having two separate Talks sounds just awful. Even then, I've rarely experienced a full blown Talk. When you make what you're looking for clear, the Talk becomes something very natural. With my current BF, we both knew neither was seeing anyone else within a few weeks. It was never asked, but we had both comfortably made it clear. And he asked if he could refer to me as his GF when he introduced me one day, and there we were. Truly, we were in a relationship BEFORE we defined it. Like you, I can almost always tell these things. He just wanted it explicit. This was all before we had sex, but that's because I take sex seriously, as you say. To me, sex is an emotional act as well as a physical one. As for determining "rightness," I don't think that can happen till we're in a relationship for awhile. To me, relationships are a means of finding the right person (to marry). In terms of who I pick for relationships, obviously they're people I think MIGHT meet those criteria, but I have to really get to know them intimately, day in and day out, for a long time to see.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 FTR: To me, exclusive means the same it does to you, though, as I said, I don't sit down and define exclusivity unless we're defining a BF/GF type relationship. I think having two separate Talks sounds just awful. Even then, I've rarely experienced a full blown Talk. When you make what you're looking for clear, the Talk becomes something very natural. With my current BF, we both knew neither was seeing anyone else within a few weeks. It was never asked, but we had both comfortably made it clear. And he asked if he could refer to me as his GF when he introduced me one day, and there we were. Truly, we were in a relationship BEFORE we defined it. Like you, I can almost always tell these things. He just wanted it explicit. This was all before we had sex, but that's because I take sex seriously, as you say. To me, sex is an emotional act as well as a physical one. As for determining "rightness," I don't think that can happen till we're in a relationship for awhile. To me, relationships are a means of finding the right person (to marry). In terms of who I pick for relationships, obviously they're people I think MIGHT meet those criteria, but I have to really get to know them intimately, day in and day out, for a long time to see. So to summarize this thread, most people feel that unless you are absolutely sure the person you are dating wants the same things as you, then talking before sex is the better way to go. It might also show you are more serious to ask and talk before sex. Sm1itten as done it afterwards because
rafallus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 That might be the case, but usually if you are having sex, and don't want any sort of exclusivity for months, the other person might get terribly heartbroken if you keep your options open to play the field and later decide this isn't what you want. I don't see why anyone can't just date one person once sex is involved if you are really want a relationship. I really would love to agree... except not everyone is honest. In other words, you can ask other person about exclusivity before sex, he agrees, you two have sex (not before that, as assumed). Everything's fine, right? Well, except other person didn't really intend to live up to promise they made and will still sleep around, even though said otherwise. And bam, you got played either way.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Sm1itten as done it afterwards because send this too soon - meant to say - Sm1itten has done it afterwards because she knew that the two of them were headed towards exclusivity in any case.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 I really would love to agree... except not everyone is honest. In other words, you can ask other person about exclusivity before sex, he agrees, you two have sex (not before that, as assumed). Everything's fine, right? Well, except other person didn't really intend to live up to promise they made and will still sleep around, even though said otherwise. And bam, you got played either way. So you assume people will lie, and therefore never ask? I think your scenario invites being played, actually its almost asking to be played and by not saying anything can be interpreted as I really don't care.
zengirl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I really would love to agree... except not everyone is honest. In other words, you can ask other person about exclusivity before sex, he agrees, you two have sex (not before that, as assumed). Everything's fine, right? Well, except other person didn't really intend to live up to promise they made and will still sleep around, even though said otherwise. And bam, you got played either way. If I get lied to after doing everything possible to make a healthy dynamic work, I still feel happier than if I buried my head in the sand and contributed to my pain. But that's just me. I also don't think I get involved with liars, so that helps.
rafallus Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I think your scenario invites being played, actually its almost asking to be played and by not saying anything can be interpreted as I really don't care. Nope. The catch is to manage expectations until exclusivity is established. I remember one girl who I know from the get go that was seeing other people. I said "**** it, you may be seeing her, but never fall in love with her". And, shockingly, it worked. If I get lied to after doing everything possible to make a healthy dynamic work, I still feel happier than if I buried my head in the sand and contributed to my pain. But that's just me. I also don't think I get involved with liars, so that helps. If you have so much faith in your liar detecting skills, good for you. Then again, there are people who lied about things much bigger than that, and for much longer than that (and I wouldn't be surprised if they took some to the grave). Disturbing, I know, but that's the way it is.
OliveOyl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I also think that being "exclusive" means something more serious to other people than it does to me - for me, it just means we aren't seeing other people. It doesn't mean it's a boyfriend/girlfriend thing (yet) and it doesn't mean it's serious (yet). We're seeing where it's going without the distraction of other people. To that end, I don't have a problem having early sex because I am in part using that experience to discover whether the person is "right" for me, whether it be right in a short or a long-term sense. People like Zengirl work the opposite way - they determine the rightness before the sex happens because they are essentially always looking for that long-term, serious relationship and want that kind of deeper emotional connectivity before the physical. I tend to concur with Sm1tten here. For me, I would need to know fairly soon (not the first date, but within the first month) whether I'm physically and sexually compatible with the person I'm dating.... in order to figure out whether it even makes sense to BE exclusive. Now I wouldn't sleep with someone who I know is sleeping with someone else. But for me, the sexual component is an integral part of the relationship. It's part of the emotional connectivity, not separate. And I wouldn't assume that because I click with the guy I'm dating in other ways that we will automatically click in bed too. Keep in mind, I'm older than a lot of the posters here, so that may make a difference. At my age, it seems rather silly to wait a long time: we have kids, we're obviously far from virgins; it's not really the "big deal" in the same way it is when one is younger.
Author bluenightowl Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 Nope. The catch is to manage expectations until exclusivity is established. I remember one girl who I know from the get go that was seeing other people. I said "**** it, you may be seeing her, but never fall in love with her". And, shockingly, it worked. I can agree with that if you can manage those expectations and be prepared that things just might not work out.
FrustratedStandards Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Honestly, I have never ever had a problem with this and ill tell you why. I never ask about the status. Usually its always the guy who brings it up. My last, amazing turned garbage relationship, had no such discussion. But there were joking remarks such as "oh well that bum is mine!" or "stop texting your other boyfriends! you're with me right now". Silly things like that kind of hint at status relationship without it being direct. I find thats the most comfortable, because no one is put on the spot, and worst comes to worst you can laugh it off. There is always some truth behind humor. At least, that's what I believe.
zengirl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 But for me, the sexual component is an integral part of the relationship. It's part of the emotional connectivity, not separate. And I wouldn't assume that because I click with the guy I'm dating in other ways that we will automatically click in bed too. For me, it is an essential component as well and I 100% agree that I believe sex is part of emotional connectivity; in fact, I connect heavily to my BF through sex and intimacy and express myself through affection, including sex, quite a bit. I think the notion that waiting means sex is less important to you is strange. I wait because sex is so important to me and because I believe it's a integral part of a relationship.
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