y2k Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 How do you equate being a BS with being a coward? I was a BS for years before I found out. Being a coward had nothing to do with it. I meant a BS who found out they're being cheating on. Not one that had no clue. I should have cleared that up, sorry.
bentnotbroken Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I meant a BS who found out they're being cheating on. Not one that had no clue. I should have cleared that up, sorry. I understand. Thanks for the clarification.
Seraph1 Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I've seen three toxic marriages stay together after cheating. None of them stayed together for good reasons. The first because of family pressure (you just don't divorce the woman you married!!) Mother waded in and put the guilt trip on him horrifically and he left his OW - TWO YEARS AGO. He regrets it to this day and has photos of his former OW in his wallet and on his desk at work. His wife - the BS - only wants him around for his paycheque and makes no bones about it. Not to mention the whole 'I may not want him but sure as hell no one else is going to take him from me'. It's sheer pride, ego and vanity on her part... and he now lacks the courage or motivation to get out. He's taken to drinking as well and spends more time in an apartment in the city than the 'family home'. The second refuses to admit that he could have been played for a fool by his wife who suffers from NPD and likes a long-distance marriage so that she can milk the cash cow while doing whatever she wants with whoever she wants in another city. That is a trainwreck and a half. I think that he has seriously low selfesteem and that his wife has manipulated him to within an inch of his life to the point where he doesn't know his ass from his elbow. I pity him but none are so blind as those who will not see. He loves the woman that he always hoped and dreamed that she was rather than who she really is... and he refuses to see the truth because that would mean admitting that he has been completely played. The last one stays for the kids and financial reasons but I can see it coming to an end at some point. They barely talk to each other and when they do they fight. Both of them are starting to voice the opinion that two happy homes are far better for children than one very unhappy home. They have a good point (even though that is probably very unpopular on the forum). I was that child the parents stayed together and I HATED IT. We are no where near as stupid and blind to the slurs and uncomfortable silences our parents endure. I remember being 5 and being embarassed to ask a friend around because I was worried that she would see how my mummy and daddy didn't kiss or seem happy. So anyone thinking that kids don't know... you're fooling yourself. But that's another story! Sorry for rambling!
y2k Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 I was that child the parents stayed together and I HATED IT. We are no where near as stupid and blind to the slurs and uncomfortable silences our parents endure. I remember being 5 and being embarassed to ask a friend around because I was worried that she would see how my mummy and daddy didn't kiss or seem happy. So anyone thinking that kids don't know... you're fooling yourself. But that's another story! Sorry for rambling! I can relate. My parents didn't love each other. I knew it since I can remember. When my parents divorced, I was happy for THEM. When my mom found herself a man she really fell in love with, and when she married him, I was the first to one to be REALLY happy for her. I was 11 at the time they married and I was the happiest person on earth for her. So to all the people who stay in un-happy marriages "for the sake of the children", you're doing NO ONE a favor. Excellent and honest communication with your children makes you a parent, not staying with your current spouse.
Alpha Q Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Just thinking about things tonight. My MM has had two D days, and his wife is aware we are still in contact. I've wondered how I would react if I was in that position. If you found out your spouse had cheated, would you reconcile, or would that be the end for you? Why do you think BS stay? Some of them know they have no other options. The A makes them realise how desirable the MM is, and that he has options. The mirror makes them realise they don't. So they reckon it's better to stay with the desirable man they have than to live the rest of their lives discarded and alone.
seren Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Some of them know they have no other options. The A makes them realise how desirable the MM is, and that he has options. The mirror makes them realise they don't. So they reckon it's better to stay with the desirable man they have than to live the rest of their lives discarded and alone. .... and some of us stay because we love our husband's or wives and because we and they have decided to reconcile our marriage and rebuild. Some don't do this and an A is a dealbreaker they cannot get past and some see that the WS shows true remorse for what they have done and the BS can see what needs to change in the relationship and sometimes they stay because they have children and, yes, nowhere else to go. The question surely should be more why the WS stays, if they are so much in love with the OP then they will leave to be with them. Being a BS is such a small part of what makes up my history, the A represented such a little time in our marriage. On balance and speaking truthfully, I stay because I never left my marriage, I stay because I love my husband and he me. Would I ever be a BS knowingly? Hell no, I am no one's second choice. Would I ever be a Bs again? who knows, but I sure won't be a reconciling wife if there were another A. The whole point about being a BS is that very few do it freely or knowingly, it's why on a D Day that the WS has to make a choice, if infact he is given one. D Day, the great leveller.
jthorne Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Some of them know they have no other options. The A makes them realise how desirable the MM is, and that he has options. The mirror makes them realise they don't. So they reckon it's better to stay with the desirable man they have than to live the rest of their lives discarded and alone. Kinda bitter, huh? Since MM has all these so-called options, why is he choosing to stay with his mean old ugly wife?
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I don't believe they are the same thing either. The BS is married legally to the person. Whether she is invested morally or in love...who knows. But no I don't perceive the affair is the same level. Not the same at all. Regardless a WS's A behavior, he gave his name and a partnership in life to one person and stolen moments to the other. Unless a WS leaves the BS for the AP, the AP is not on a par with the BS.
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Some of them know they have no other options. The A makes them realise how desirable the MM is, and that he has options. The mirror makes them realise they don't. So they reckon it's better to stay with the desirable man they have than to live the rest of their lives discarded and alone. Funny. If the option of the AP is so desirable, why are there so many under the bus?
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I don't believe they are the same thing either. The BS is married legally to the person. Whether she is invested morally or in love...who knows. But no I don't perceive the affair is the same level. I agree As and Ms aren't the same level. As a BS my xH should have done everything to protect me and our life. He didn't. Things got tough and I made things a little tougher and he headed for someone who would put the pieces together for him. I confronted him and that was the end. I held it to a standard wehre I wouldn't tolerate someone making a mockery of what I held in such regard. He didn't see the importance of the M until he was caught and backed into a corner. The only time I thought of him as pathetic was when he was caught and I was ending it and he was crying trying convince me how sorry he was. He'd taken it and mangled it and spat on it and trampled on it and then expecte me to want to believe he could look then show it the respect it deserved? Nope. Wasn't going to happen. As an OW I thought the same exact thing about xMM. I thought it was horrible the way he was doing what he was doing but just like my xH I understood why. I never expected him to leave his M for me. He always said he wouldn't and I never asked him to. An A to me is a lot like a courtship and you never really know how it's going to go. It has some significance but only as much as a courtship would. I can't see how anyone can thing an A can compete with a M but I can't understand how anyone could stay in a M where it's been tarnished by an A either. I'm writing this at work so hoping it makes a little sense. Having to rush far too much!
2sure Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Having been an OW prior to meeting my now ex H... When I discovered he was cheating I knew OW was just a part of a problem that basically had nothing to do with her personally. Also, on D-Day the WS has to do a lot of convincing to get a BS to try to stay. As much convincing as it takes to get OW to stay with him.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Not the same at all. Regardless a WS's A behavior, he gave his name and a partnership in life to one person and stolen moments to the other. Unless a WS leaves the BS for the AP, the AP is not on a par with the BS. Not to be antagonistic but when I was the BS and I found out my xH cheated I was underpar to the AP. She knew what was going on with us and exactly what our issues were. By virtue of having an A he made someone else more important than me. I got lies and guilt gifts and sex and vacations that were hollow and meaningless. Their stolen moments were a whole lot more real and powerful than my life that was built on nothing more than lies. I wasn't on a par with his AP.
Owl Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Summer Breeze...that's what I don't get. If that's how you felt as a result of HIS affair...how do you reconcile that with having an affair with a married man, and knowing that you're contributing to that same impact to his wife that you went through?
woinlove Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Not to be antagonistic but when I was the BS and I found out my xH cheated I was underpar to the AP. She knew what was going on with us and exactly what our issues were. By virtue of having an A he made someone else more important than me. I got lies and guilt gifts and sex and vacations that were hollow and meaningless. Their stolen moments were a whole lot more real and powerful than my life that was built on nothing more than lies. I wasn't on a par with his AP. People arguing as to who is more important or on par in an A! By your own description, the MM is lying, deceiving, pretending to be in an M that he isn't valuing, living a life of meaningless and hollow actions and words. Such a broken and/or selfish and dishonest person is really not capable of bestowing importance or status to either the W or the OW. Maybe pre-A he was someone worth building a life with, maybe he will be again, but his actions during an A really aren't worth enough to have any woman take her status from him. Even with respect to who MM thinks is most important at the time, he is living a life of lies and deceit, so it is not very meaningful. Any OW or BW who can move on with honor and integrity, with or without fMM/fWH, has more than enough status and importance, just in their own integrity.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Summer Breeze...that's what I don't get. If that's how you felt as a result of HIS affair...how do you reconcile that with having an affair with a married man, and knowing that you're contributing to that same impact to his wife that you went through? If you've read my posts through the last few years (which would have bored most people to tears) you'll see that I don't think an AP has any significance in the A. My xH could have had a hundred ONS and it still would have been cheating. He could have sat in front of a computer and been having online sex with 25 different and it still would have been cheating. My concern is with his actions not someone elses. If a WS doesn't cheat there isn't an A. It's that simple to me. I never got wound up about the OW because she wasn't an issue. His cheating was. I can hand on heart say that I've always felt that. When I left him I went to his sisters and his mother and told them not to take it out on the OW. If they wanted to be angry with what he did to his family then take it out on him. She loved him. She gave him the support he sought from her and he shouldn't have been seeking it from anyone but me. He cheated.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 People arguing as to who is more important or on par in an A! By your own description, the MM is lying, deceiving, pretending to be in an M that he isn't valuing, living a life of meaningless and hollow actions and words. Such a broken and/or selfish and dishonest person is really not capable of bestowing importance or status to either the W or the OW. Maybe pre-A he was someone worth building a life with, maybe he will be again, but his actions during an A really aren't worth enough to have any woman take her status from him. Even with respect to who MM thinks is most important at the time, he is living a life of lies and deceit, so it is not very meaningful. Any OW or BW who can move on with honor and integrity, with or without fMM/fWH, has more than enough status and importance, just in their own integrity. It wasn't me that started the talk of rating the M v the A. I gave an opinion. I didn't say I took any status from anyone. I made my status. XH cheated and I wasn't going to live with it so I chose to be number 1 to me and I left. XMM had some issues that I thoroughly understood and eventually came to accept an R with him with the limitations it had. I still wasn't number 2 because I never expected him to leave and I never made him number 1 in my life. I absolutely agree with your closing comment. The WS puts the importance and the status or rating on the R. That's what I was getitng at. You choose if that's where you want to be. You have no idea what my A was. No idea xMMs situation and no idea what went on before we entered the A. Just because you don't like the way it sounds written in here it doesn't demean him in my eyes. You're welcome to your opinion and I'm happy for you to have it. I konw my reality just like you know yours.
Owl Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 If you've read my posts through the last few years (which would have bored most people to tears) you'll see that I don't think an AP has any significance in the A. My xH could have had a hundred ONS and it still would have been cheating. He could have sat in front of a computer and been having online sex with 25 different and it still would have been cheating. My concern is with his actions not someone elses. If a WS doesn't cheat there isn't an A. It's that simple to me. I never got wound up about the OW because she wasn't an issue. His cheating was. I can hand on heart say that I've always felt that. When I left him I went to his sisters and his mother and told them not to take it out on the OW. If they wanted to be angry with what he did to his family then take it out on him. She loved him. She gave him the support he sought from her and he shouldn't have been seeking it from anyone but me. He cheated. So you don't feel that YOUR participation in the affair has direct impact on his wife, or his marriage? It doesn't matter that it's you that's doing it with...it's the fact that HE is doing it. OK...but do you feel that he'd be doing it if it were someone/anyone else he were with other than you? It seems to me that looking at it like that would mean that your relationship with him is meaningless...you could be a light bulb for all that it matters. It's either that there's a "loving relationship" with you that is in direct conflict with his marriage...or he's simply making use of whomever/whatever was convenient to cheat with at the time and that's his problem. Not picking a fight...it just seems to me either the affair partner matters, or they don't. And I can't imagine a great relationship in a situation where they don't.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 So you don't feel that YOUR participation in the affair has direct impact on his wife, or his marriage? It doesn't matter that it's you that's doing it with...it's the fact that HE is doing it. OK...but do you feel that he'd be doing it if it were someone/anyone else he were with other than you? It seems to me that looking at it like that would mean that your relationship with him is meaningless...you could be a light bulb for all that it matters. It's either that there's a "loving relationship" with you that is in direct conflict with his marriage...or he's simply making use of whomever/whatever was convenient to cheat with at the time and that's his problem. Not picking a fight...it just seems to me either the affair partner matters, or they don't. And I can't imagine a great relationship in a situation where they don't. I never said I didn't matter to HIM. I never said the OW didn't matter to my HUSBAND. I said they don't matter in the fact there was an A. I know my xH loved his OW and even when he came back to me trying to put it back together because he loved me and didn't want to lose the day to day withour toddler I knew he still loved her. She was insignificant to ME. I mattered to my xMM. He loved me dearly and still does just as I love him. I just am not any significance in the M. He cheated and that's all that matters. I know you're not picking a fight and I know that my views are quite different from anyone elses. I'm always good for a little banter!
woinlove Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I never said I didn't matter to HIM. I never said the OW didn't matter to my HUSBAND. I said they don't matter in the fact there was an A. I know my xH loved his OW and even when he came back to me trying to put it back together because he loved me and didn't want to lose the day to day withour toddler I knew he still loved her. She was insignificant to ME. I mattered to my xMM. He loved me dearly and still does just as I love him. I just am not any significance in the M. He cheated and that's all that matters. I know you're not picking a fight and I know that my views are quite different from anyone elses. I'm always good for a little banter! I'm trying to understand your viewpoint better, since this discussion was in response to Owl asking you how you felt participating in an A with MM, knowing the hurt as a BS. It sounds like you are saying the OW does not play any significant role in hurting or harming the BS, that it is really the MM who holds responsibility for that. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding you? If I am correct, is that view dependent on the OW being a stranger to the BS? Would it be different if the MM was married to your acquaintance? neighbour? colleague? friend? sister? daughter? I'm just curious as I used to think similarly to how I'm interpreting your responses and whether the BS was a stranger or someone I knew did matter to me. But, again, I might be misinterpreting your view.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I'm trying to understand your viewpoint better, since this discussion was in response to Owl asking you how you felt participating in an A with MM, knowing the hurt as a BS. It sounds like you are saying the OW does not play any significant role in hurting or harming the BS, that it is really the MM who holds responsibility for that. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding you? If I am correct, is that view dependent on the OW being a stranger to the BS? Would it be different if the MM was married to your acquaintance? neighbour? colleague? friend? sister? daughter? I'm just curious as I used to think similarly to how I'm interpreting your responses and whether the BS was a stranger or someone I knew did matter to me. But, again, I might be misinterpreting your view. I knew the OW when my xH cheated. We all worked together. She wasn't a friend but I knew her. She didn't make a difference. If we'd been friends then there would have been a separate betrayal to deal with. The cheating by my H and a friend who would have betrayed my trust and friendship. I am not a believer in the concept of men and women being friends who share everything. I believe that once you are in a R then it changes the landscape of any opposite sex friendships you have. If xMM had been married to a friend I would have talked to the friend about seeing him here and there because she would be my friend and that's what would happen natuarally. I probably would have been 'outting' things before anything took seed. My primary relationship in that instance would be the friend. I hope that answers your question!
woinlove Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I knew the OW when my xH cheated. We all worked together. She wasn't a friend but I knew her. She didn't make a difference. If we'd been friends then there would have been a separate betrayal to deal with. The cheating by my H and a friend who would have betrayed my trust and friendship. I am not a believer in the concept of men and women being friends who share everything. I believe that once you are in a R then it changes the landscape of any opposite sex friendships you have. If xMM had been married to a friend I would have talked to the friend about seeing him here and there because she would be my friend and that's what would happen natuarally. I probably would have been 'outting' things before anything took seed. My primary relationship in that instance would be the friend. I hope that answers your question! Yes, thanks, that answers it. I used to feel like that. I don't feel the same anymore and don't tie my own reaction (for example, not expecting anything from an acquaintance) necessarily to how I try to treat others (even if strangers don't expect anything nice, it can feel good to be generous and kind anyway). Also, I just don't like to encourage those I love to hurt or harm or lie to others. I'd rather encourage them to be honest and open and an ongoing A is incompatible with that. I am just explaining how it is for me personally. When younger I didn't feel as connected to people in general and thought almost every special connection had to be fully pursued. With experience, I've learned that there are enough (not a lot, but enough) men to fall in love with and have deep, important connections with even when I exclude ones involving dishonesty and betrayal, and that my life is more enjoyable without bringing the deception into it.
Spark1111 Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I knew the OW when my xH cheated. We all worked together. She wasn't a friend but I knew her. She didn't make a difference. If we'd been friends then there would have been a separate betrayal to deal with. The cheating by my H and a friend who would have betrayed my trust and friendship. I am not a believer in the concept of men and women being friends who share everything. I believe that once you are in a R then it changes the landscape of any opposite sex friendships you have. If xMM had been married to a friend I would have talked to the friend about seeing him here and there because she would be my friend and that's what would happen natuarally. I probably would have been 'outting' things before anything took seed. My primary relationship in that instance would be the friend. I hope that answers your question! I think it is noble that you did not blame the OW in your sitch, but do you still feel that way today? I mean, didn't your H's affair break your heart? Weren't you devastated and in pain? Some are, some aren't. How did you FEEL when you found out about his betrayal? If it hurt you, than certainly you can imagine? empathize? with how your MM may feel? I do not understand why so many try to have it both ways: Well, if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. Then what does that say about your relationship with MM? What does that say about your role in causing his BS pain? I've always wondered this: You, if you TRULY loved your H, know better than anyone the pain of infidelity. So why participate in causing that pain to another? Because you held the OW in your sitch harmless, certainly you can understand others who may not? And certainly you can understand other's not being able to understand your actions based on your past experience of your own H's infidelity.
Summer Breeze Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I think it is noble that you did not blame the OW in your sitch, but do you still feel that way today? Why would I blame her? He cheated on me. If she had been a hooker in Vegas or a weekend tryst somewhere it would have been cheating and he would have done it. Why does it matter who it was with? I mean, didn't your H's affair break your heart? Weren't you devastated and in pain? Some are, some aren't. He absolutely broke my heart. He listened as I cried over my dad cheating on my mom and he heard me say from day 1 of our getting serious 'I won't be hit and I won't be cheated on'. He chose to and I was devastated but there was nothing he could do to make it right. He's still someone I daydream about and I regularly say what if. How did you FEEL when you found out about his betrayal? I felt betrayed and hurt and a few flashes of shame and humiliation. Most of all I thought you stupid idiot. I told you this would end it. It didn't take long to settle my thoughts down and understand the role I played. He broke my heart. If it hurt you, than certainly you can imagine? empathize? with how your MM may feel? My MM or his W? I can sympathize with her to the point her H cheated on her. It's heartbreaking. I do not understand why so many try to have it both ways: Well, if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. I don't try to have it both ways. I was a BS and my thoughts were one way. I was an OW and in my eyes she should be looking at it the same way. Why blame someone else for what your spouse did to you? Then what does that say about your relationship with MM? What does that say about your role in causing his BS pain? It says nothing about my R with him. My R with him was wonderful and I wouldn't give a second of it up. I have not 1 regret about it. If he didn't cheat she would have no pain. I'm sorry if you disagree but to me it truly is that simple. It doesn't matter one jot who the WS cheats with it's the point they're cheating. I've always wondered this: You, if you TRULY loved your H, know better than anyone the pain of infidelity. So why participate in causing that pain to another? Because you held the OW in your sitch harmless, certainly you can understand others who may not? That's their choice. To me by blaming the OW was silly. It's basically getting mad at anyone other than the person who was supposed to be by your side and protect you. If someone cheats they are betraying their spouse period. If someone wants to blame the OW that's their choice but I truly think that takes the blame off the WS. And certainly you can understand other's not being able to understand your actions based on your past experience of your own H's infidelity. I can understand it because from my experience I can't understand how anyone can forgive someone who has betrayed them. I have the utmost respect for you and how you handled your reconcilliation but I don't understand how you could do it. It's not within my thought process. We all have thoughts that others can't comprehend because it's out of their own experiences. Responses in bold.
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Not to be antagonistic but when I was the BS and I found out my xH cheated I was underpar to the AP. She knew what was going on with us and exactly what our issues were. By virtue of having an A he made someone else more important than me. I got lies and guilt gifts and sex and vacations that were hollow and meaningless. Their stolen moments were a whole lot more real and powerful than my life that was built on nothing more than lies. I wasn't on a par with his AP. Then why did he cry and beg and plead with you instead of run directly to this paragon of womanhood?
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 It wasn't me that started the talk of rating the M v the A. No, you didn't. The OP did.
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