Disenchantedly Yours Posted August 28, 2011 Posted August 28, 2011 Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on so-called gender differences. I'm one of those who believe that these differences are mostly a function of social conditioning... not biology... and that we'd all be better off tossing them and just treating people as individuals. Yes, we can agree to disagree. But there is a pot for every kettle regardless of either of our personal ideas.
zengirl Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Aww, I see. It only sets the tone if the woman acts a certain way. And if she chooses to perceive something a certain way, it must be the wrong way. Because *she* is the problem. At least, that's basically what I got from your comment above. Well, I'm pointing out a specific pattern that, in our world, based on the socialization that exists, is only exhibited by females in dating, yes. There are other bad and specific patterns I could attribute to males. And what I'm saying the idea of "setting the tone" IS a matter of that perception. Essentially: You believe it sets the tone, so it does. If that belief works for you, that's great, but when someone goes into a situation where a belief they hold works against them and they STILL choose to hold onto it, it is odd to me, male or female. I gave a specific as to that -- and yes, that specific was related to the female experience as I've experienced and observed it. I think men and women tie themselves up in knots about all kind of relationship, dating and sex issues. Totally. And I think they're all equally stupid. Even my own! Which is why you have so many embittered men that feel it neccessary to put down women who don't want to approach by calling them "lazy" or "cowards". There is nothing wrong with a person that doesn't want to approach. There is nothing wrong with a person that does. All this means is that these two different people need to find someone that is recepitive to their personal style. I specifically said it was about personal style. In the example I give, that you criticize, am reflecting on how socialization, personal style, and success interact in a negative pattern I've noticed with some women. Is it the only negative pattern out there? No, of course not. Are all women who are not approaching demonstrating that negative pattern? No. And I said that in my post. I don't remember anyone qualifying in exact terms what the first step entitled. No, no one has. And thus all responses are going to be skewed by this. That's why I gave some examples of varying degrees. Is this what you consider pursuing or making the first step? You walking up to someone and just introducing yourself to them? What happens after that? Lets say the man doesn't ask for your number, but you have been having an easy conversation, do you offer it? Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't. I don't have "rules" about those things, personally. I do what seems to go with the flow/feels right. I will say that I think in a good relationship, both people feel like they are pursuing and being pursued. That's been my experience. I also think anyone who has specific rules about these things is probably hindering themselves with negative beliefs, or at least I often see that. People not being open to each other, the moment, and finding what they want in life account for 90% of life's problems IMO. But that's just me. Who happened to *see* who first might not set the tone but how we deal with each other during that time does. First meetings set the president in most cases. We teach people how to treat us. That's been my experience. To clarify: To me, the approach, is literally the moment you meet. And nothing more. I do believe that, over time, we teach people how to treat us, but I don't believe we do much of it in that moment. YMMV. Now a woman that is more aggressive *is* setting the tone. Does it mean that tone is bad? Nope. Not if it works for her. My issue is not that a woman can and does approach a man. My issue is calling women who don't "lazy" or "cowards" because they aren't that aggressive and don't want to be that aggressive. It's about finding the person that is good with your style. I would certainly not call all women who are that way lazy or cowards. I do think if a woman does not approach out of laziness or cowardice, she's fairly lame. But I think that of a man too. Those are poor reasons for anything. Usually the reasons, as I said in my negative example, are far more complex than that. Some are good, and some are bad. If it's simply doing what you feel compelled to do and you experience no dissonance (this includes no "Man, I wish that one guy had come over and talked to me! Bummer") over it, then, I see no issues whatsoever with any particular style. You are fine with approaching. I am not. I am sure our styles work best for our personal lives individual to who we are, yes? Well, at the moment I'm relatively sure my style works for me because I currently have a good result (a lovely BF and relationship). If your style gets you the results you want, whatever it is, I'd 100% agree that it works for you. That's completely up to you to decide. I'm not trying to say everyone should be like me. I AM going to say that sometimes stepping out of your socialization and initial preferences, looking around, and seeing what works for you and what doesn't in a real way is great for everyone. What I disagreed with was your hypothesis on what kind of men each approach attracts. I find that a common fallacy, personally. And there are many variables, including what constitutes "aggressive" or an "approach."
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