Do Men Really Want To Be Approached?

[thatone]

Well, I've been to cons. And even at cons (the major ones), there's a huge range. If you think everyone at Comicon is a loser/virgin type, you've clearly never been to Comicon. There's a huge cross-section of people, including loads who are mostly mainstream. Same with all the major Cons. Smaller ones? Your point may apply.

 

I read comic books, love some anime, play the occasional video game, etc, as do a lot of my friends, but you couldn't "spot" us as nerds. I have dressed up for a con once with some friends for kicks, but mostly, I've been in my plain clothes. Dressing up was just for fun; like Halloween. It's the people who get super intense about it that are weirdos.

 

yeah, but you didn't go there with the intention of meeting men, i'm guessing.

 

i'm a fairly liberal person, but i'm not out on my weekends hugging trees with hemp clothes, sandals, and a 3 month neck beard hoping to meet women in the process. most of my friends/associates and even my gf are more conservative people, but they're not spending their weekends with that crazy kansas church holding up a "god hates fags" sign while looking for dates either.

 

i mean, one of my remaining interests from my youth is the music i grew up with, and being around a city with lots of music venues i get a chance to go see them quite a bit. so while i will definitely go to see slayer or megadeth again, and my gf will shake her head and draw the line at being dragged along to metal shows, but that's fine, she won't get me to read/watch 'eat pray love' with her either, and i won't be at the metal shows to check out the girls covered from head to toe in tattoos and piercings.

 

your hobbies and interests should not restrict your social life, that's my point.

Edited August 26, 2011 by thatone

[zengirl]

yeah, but you didn't go there with the intention of meeting men, i'm guessing.

 

Oh, golly no. But I wouldn't go anywhere out of town with the intention of meeting men. My cousin, who lives in San Diego, did meet her BF at Comicon, though. Neither one is particularly nerdy by my standards. But Comicon isn't really that nerdy these days.

 

i'm a fairly liberal person, but i'm not out on my weekends hugging trees with hemp clothes, sandals, and a 3 month neck beard hoping to meet women in the process. most of my friends/associates and even my gf are more conservative people, but they're not spending their weekends with that crazy kansas church holding up a "god hates fags" sign while looking for dates either.

 

I think it's best for everyone to be their authentic selves, whatever that is. But I feel like I'm missing your point on whatever this is. . . since when does liberal mean hippie? Hippie is a specific type. And are you saying your GF hates gays, she just doesn't wave the sign? I'm confused. . .

 

i mean, one of my remaining interests from my youth is the music i grew up with, and being around a city with lots of music venues i get a chance to go see them quite a bit. so while i will definitely go to see slayer or megadeth again, and my gf will shake her head and draw the line at being dragged along to metal shows, i won't really be there to check out the girls covered from head to toe in tattoos and piercings.

 

your hobbies and interests should not restrict your social life. they're just hobbies and interests.

 

True, but many, many people meet through hobbies and interests, and not all people who dig comics are the weird brand of totally intense nerd was my point. My BF and I go to the same comic store. We didn't meet there, but we could've. And the average person on the street wouldn't look at either of us and think, "Nerd" let alone "Scary intense nerd!"

[verhrzn]

yeah, but you didn't go there with the intention of meeting men, i'm guessing.

 

your hobbies and interests should not restrict your social life, that's my point.

 

But why wouldn't I? Where else am I going to meet guys?

 

Additionally, perhaps I myself am one of those weird nerd types... I'm already planning my three costumes for next year's big convention in town. So wouldn't I have a better chance among people who are like me? (Which is why I pass over the huntin/fishin/sports types of guys, because I have absolutely nothing in common with them and why would they like me anyway? I am no more their type than they are mine.)

[thatone]

 

 

I think it's best for everyone to be their authentic selves, whatever that is. But I feel like I'm missing your point on whatever this is. . . since when does liberal mean hippie? Hippie is a specific type. And are you saying your GF hates gays, she just doesn't wave the sign? I'm confused. . .

 

 

 

True, but many, many people meet through hobbies and interests, and not all people who dig comics are the weird brand of totally intense nerd was my point. My BF and I go to the same comic store. We didn't meet there, but we could've. And the average person on the street wouldn't look at either of us and think, "Nerd" let alone "Scary intense nerd!"

 

well i agree to an extent on being yourself, but when your only social interaction is the extremes of a particular subset of people that's not being yourself, it's living life through a costume.

 

and that isn't specific to the costume cons. black guys who have to fit the thug image and consider a gun part of their wardrobe are living life via a costume as well. country guys who derive their status by how much they've spent on their truck are living life via a costume too.

 

she is only interacting with the extremes of the social groups she is familiar with. her problem is nothing more than a need to meet new people who aren't at a costume con or a frat boy bar, that's really all there is to it.

[Pierre]

 

What I'm getting out of this thread is that I really shouldn't bother, because I am neither attractive nor "sexy/demure/feminine." So does that mean if I'm never approached and it's a waste of time to approach, I'm pretty much SOL?

 

OK, you cannot change your anatomy, but you can make sure you are fit.

You can change how you dress. I have known women that are so-so in look and they have called my attention when they dress nicely.

 

Sometimes being sexy or sensual is an inborn talent, but it is quite possible to have below average looks and express sensuality. It can be done and it improves your look quite a bit.

 

I am certain you have positive attributes that you do not exploit. It could be legs, chest, pretty feet, hair, lips, nose, etc. Despite of what you say there are some parts in your body that by themselves are hot.

 

Stop dressing up like a guy in pants and always wear a dress and shoes with some heel. The heels always enhance the figure.

 

Do not expect to get dates from perfect strangers. I would try to be in places where you can make friends and perhaps a friend or someone you know will ask you out.

 

What do you think is your best attribute?

 

What can't you act sexy and demure? Are you an athletic androgenous type woman?

[iJester]

Men and women are the same in this regard.

 

We both want to be approached...by people we find attractive.

[fortyninethousand322]

But why wouldn't I? Where else am I going to meet guys?

 

Additionally, perhaps I myself am one of those weird nerd types... I'm already planning my three costumes for next year's big convention in town. So wouldn't I have a better chance among people who are like me? (Which is why I pass over the huntin/fishin/sports types of guys, because I have absolutely nothing in common with them and why would they like me anyway? I am no more their type than they are mine.)

 

Well there are plenty of guys who have a wide variety of interests. While I've never been to a comic con nor do I watch anime, I'm still interested in those types of things (sci-fi, comics, stuff like that). But, I'm equally interested in a trip to a museum to see an interesting exhibit, or a debate/panel discussion on public policy, or a concert. And, yes I love sports (playing and watching). I can't help it that I'm a well rounded individual. And I know I'm not the only guy who is.

[fortyninethousand322]

OP, I went back and read your other thread. You are indeed attractive. I honestly don't know what the problem is.

[somedude81]

I wonder if her problem is where she lives?

 

She should move to southern California, there are plenty of cool nerdy guys over there

[ThsAmericanLife]

I approach everyone (male or female) about the same. Basic friendliness... I'll strike up a conversation with just about anyone near me.

 

If I find the guy physically attractive, I wouldn't do anything different with him as an 'approach' than I would anyone else. Part of that is because I have a business to run. I've made great new contacts for my business just being out and about. Being approachable and friendly works for attracting interaction of all kinds. Never mind the 'sexy' part. I don't try to give off that vibe. That usually takes care of itself.

 

Confidence, good grooming, good posture (!!) is pretty darned sexy all by itself. To the OP... ever thought about taking a dance class? an adult ballet class? Great for posture and coordination.

 

What kind of physical activity do you do? Doing regular physical activity gives one confidence in their 'own skin'.

[sally4sara]

I think most men really like being approached, at least they always seemed to be happy and agreeable about it.

 

For a long time now I've felt women doing the approaching was a better idea than waiting. I'd rather go for the guy that caught my eye than sit there batting away ones I'm not interested in, hurting their feelings no matter how nice you are about it and waiting for the one I am interested in to take notice.

[Casablanca]

Yes, I wouldnt care when or where....I could be at the store, with a group of friends...hell if she is cute enough she could probably pull of getting my number at say one of my grandparent's funerals.

[Nexus One]

Verhrzn, the guys in the pool you're fishing in, i.e. nerdy guys, generally aren't girl savvy. You have to make it really obvious to such guys that you like them. Unless you're clear and direct with them, then they will interpret any of your behavior as general friendliness.

[Sanman]

OP, for what it is worth, my gf introduced herself to me and made the first move. I'm glad she did because there is a good chance I never would have met her otherwise. So, in my case, please be forward and ask a guy out. There is something truly powerful and attractive about knowing someone is interested in you.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Verhrzn - my experience is that while some men are naturally flattered by being approached, it doesn’t necessarily translate into them wanting a relationship with the object of their flattery. A good rule of thumb to remember is whatever initial approach you take in dating with a man sets up the president for the rest of the possible relationship. A woman might take charge from the start but a year or two later she might be left wondering why her man never takes the incentive to plan things. Ask yourself what type of relationship you want. Know yourself well enough to know what kind of man you want. Do you want a man that lets you take the lead, or are you more interested in a man that takes the lead? My one girlfriend approach her current boyfriend. He is a great guy but he is so much more passive then she is. She runs that relationship. If that's the type of girl you are, that's fine. If that's the type of guy he is that's fine. But if you really aren't that kind of girl, it's then that you are going to encounter problems.

 

I personally want to be with the type of man that will take the lead. I am not interested in more passive types. The few times I did approach men, it never worked out. And I didn’t even feel fully good about doing it anyway. I’m a traditional woman and I like when a man makes the effort to pursue me. And I in turn need to give him the signs that I an enjoying his pursuit and also work on my half of the relationship.

 

I do think at the heart of it *most* women want to be pursued and *most* men would like to successfully pursue and woo a woman. Naturally, not *all* fall into this category but I think if a man was confident his efforts in pursuing would be well received, this would be infinitely more pleasurable to him then letting the woman do all the work on this front.

 

I do think you are onto something when you said, “...or are guys who say this only imagining a magical universe in which only attractive and amazing women throw themselves into their paths without any effort on their part?”. Women really need to make men work harder for “it”. (I am not talking about just sex. I am talking work harder for her affection and respect in him). I am not negating the crappy way I see a lot of men treat women today either. With each generation there seems to be less men able to treat women well. But too many women don’t make a man work for it anymore. And what happens is the bar slips lower and lower and quite honestly, men get lazier and lazier. Again, not an excuse for the way I see men act today but I wish more women would make it harder for men. Because unfortunately, too many men are going to take the lazy way out. And that is shown time and time again with our hook-up culture.

 

I saw a picture of you in your costume in the other thread. You’re very cute and attractive! And no, the other girl in that picture with you isn’t better looking. She is pretty too. She is just different looking, that’s all. For the time being I suggest you stop worrying about flirting with guys or on how to get them interested in you. Or about the other girls that seem to have it more easy. Start treating men like a causal friend. Be friendly. Talk to them. Don’t fill your mind with questions about the “what ifs” of the “does he like me” questions. You need to think of yourself as the prize. You need to think about what *you* want. And you need to make them earn that. But try treating men like they were just people. Flawed, sometimes boring, sometimes funny, imperfect people. It’s not your looks. I’m telling you that right now.

 

If you want to approach men. Approach them. But if you want to be the one approached, then work on dealing with men with less pressure on yourself and maybe building your casual conversation skills with guys and they will be drawn to you.

 

I know it’s PC now-a-days to be a modern woman and approach men. But that doesn’t mean it’s right for you and that’s fine.

[Feelsgoodman]

I do think at the heart of it *most* women want to be pursued and *most* men would like to successfully pursue and woo a woman. Naturally, not *all* fall into this category but I think if a man was confident his efforts in pursuing would be well received, this would be infinitely more pleasurable to him then letting the woman do all the work on this front.

That's just wishful thinking on your part, as it fits in perfectly with your own preference of doing noting and taking no risks while the guy does all the heavy lifting in the early stages of a relationship.

 

In reality, everyone - whether male or female - would ideally prefer to sit back lazily and have scores of attractive members of the opposite sex vie for their attention. The crude version of the ideal situation from a man's perspective is portrayed in a typical rap video (i.e. women throwing themselves at you).

[PJKino]

That's just wishful thinking on your part, as it fits in perfectly with your own preference of doing noting and taking no risks while the guy does all the heavy lifting in the early stages of a relationship.

 

In reality, everyone - whether male or female - would ideally prefer to sit back lazily and have scores of attractive members of the opposite sex vie for their attention. The crude version of the ideal situation from a man's perspective is portrayed in a typical rap video (i.e. women throwing themselves at you).

 

Exactly..of course a lot of women want to be prusued as you said they take no risks and watch the guy jump through hoops to try to win their effection.

[Feelsgoodman]

Exactly..of course a lot of women want to be prusued as you said they take no risks and watch the guy jump through hoops to try to win their effection.

What's funny is that the other poster claims to believe that men find pleasure in doing that crap.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

That's just wishful thinking on your part, as it fits in perfectly with your own preference of doing noting and taking no risks while the guy does all the heavy lifting in the early stages of a relationship.

 

In reality, everyone - whether male or female - would ideally prefer to sit back lazily and have scores of attractive members of the opposite sex vie for their attention. The crude version of the ideal situation from a man's perspective is portrayed in a typical rap video (i.e. women throwing themselves at you).

 

No, it's not wishful thinking on my part. It's what I've observed about women and what I acknowledge about myself.Who areyou to tell people that if they don't want to be the more aggresive party that they are being lazy? Who areyou tell people what kind of person they should be having a relationship with? Some people are more aggressive then others. And the people that are more aggressive should act in a manner that feels more nautral to them. The people that aren't more aggressive also should have the freedom to act in a manner that feels more natural to them as well without people shaming them for it.

 

There was a time when I took the advice to make the first move, I tried that out. It didn't work for me. And I refuse to let people like you let me or other women that feel the same as I do, shame us for perfering a certain tradtional way to a relationship by claiming it's about not taking risks and letting the guy do "*all* the heavy lifting" and being "lazy". Treating each other with respect is key in any relationship. Me wanting a man to be the aggressor does not translate to disrespecting men. This currently mentality that if a man scratches his ass, a woman has to as well because that's "equality", is utter bull. Men and women are equal. But we are different too.

 

I think there is nothing wrong with women that are the one's to pursue a man. It works for some people. As I stated with my friend. She clearly needed a man who would be a little more passive. And there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong when you shame people either way for what kind of partner they want. But I also believe that alot of men have stopped taking the risk. That they have become more lazy in how they approach relationships today. Per hook-up culture that requires men to really give nothing of themselves to a woman to get everything he wants. Such as the famed rap videos you pointed out to. I'm not suggesting women use men. You however just said that a man's ideal situation is to use women. Because that's how women in rap videos are protrayed as ,being used.

 

To stereotype, women do not usually have the chemical make-up that makes them the agressors. Men typically do. We can admit that when it comes to sports, we can admit that when men show signs of leadership or power. But now, in the face of relationships, we can't admit that men are usually the more aggressive gender?

 

This sounds like more of an issue of bitterness against women because they might have an expectation about how they would like to have a relationship. Instead of understanding that women tend to be the less agressive sex, you've instead decided to tell yourself that some women wait for men to make the first move out of a malcious desire to see men "jump through hoops". There are women out there like that. But most women that want relationships and that want a man to be the aggressor aren't interested in seeing him jump through hoops for the sake of it.

 

Stop trying to shame the women that want a man to pursue them and make the first step by pretending they are only doing it to be mean and nasty. If you are interested in a woman that is the aggressor, more power to you. Please find a woman like that. Those women aren't wrong in their approach to a relationship. And either are the women that want the man to be the aggressor either.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

What's funny is that the other poster claims to believe that men find pleasure in doing that crap.

 

Yes, some men do enjoy being the aggressor, taking the lead. I've been in those kind of relationships myself. They wanted to please me. And I wanted to please them. But the way I pleased them (non-sexually we are talking here) was different from the ways they pleased me. Men and women can be equal and different at the same time.

[Feelsgoodman]

Yes, some men do enjoy being the aggressor, taking the lead. I've been in those kind of relationships myself. They wanted to please me. And I wanted to please them. But the way I pleased them (non-sexually we are talking here) was different from the ways they pleased me. Men and women can be equal and different at the same time.

Not sure what you mean by "being the aggressor"...sounds a bit ambiguous. If you are saying that some men (a.k.a. players) enjoy the chase, it's true. The problem with such guys is that once the chase is over, they have nothing to look forward to and move on to their next conquest.

 

Many a woman doesn't understand this dynamic and acts all shocked when a guy who was showering her with attention and appeared super interested all of a sudden drops her like a hot potato. Well, there is nothing shocking about this at all. Players are called that for a reason. Once they finish the game, there's nothing left...other than starting a new one.

 

Guys who are not players don't chase aggressively. It's just not in their nature. So if you want to be wooed, you have to accept the fact that you will be nothing more than short-term entertainment.

[Feelsgoodman]

No, it's not wishful thinking on my part. It's what I've observed about women and what I acknowledge about myself.Who areyou to tell people that if they don't want to be the more aggresive party that they are being lazy? Who areyou tell people what kind of person they should be having a relationship with? Some people are more aggressive then others. And the people that are more aggressive should act in a manner that feels more nautral to them. The people that aren't more aggressive also should have the freedom to act in a manner that feels more natural to them as well without people shaming them for it.

 

There was a time when I took the advice to make the first move, I tried that out. It didn't work for me. And I refuse to let people like you let me or other women that feel the same as I do, shame us for perfering a certain tradtional way to a relationship by claiming it's about not taking risks and letting the guy do "*all* the heavy lifting" and being "lazy". Treating each other with respect is key in any relationship. Me wanting a man to be the aggressor does not translate to disrespecting men. This currently mentality that if a man scratches his ass, a woman has to as well because that's "equality", is utter bull. Men and women are equal. But we are different too.

 

I think there is nothing wrong with women that are the one's to pursue a man. It works for some people. As I stated with my friend. She clearly needed a man who would be a little more passive. And there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong when you shame people either way for what kind of partner they want. But I also believe that alot of men have stopped taking the risk. That they have become more lazy in how they approach relationships today. Per hook-up culture that requires men to really give nothing of themselves to a woman to get everything he wants. Such as the famed rap videos you pointed out to. I'm not suggesting women use men. You however just said that a man's ideal situation is to use women. Because that's how women in rap videos are protrayed as ,being used.

 

To stereotype, women do not usually have the chemical make-up that makes them the agressors. Men typically do. We can admit that when it comes to sports, we can admit that when men show signs of leadership or power. But now, in the face of relationships, we can't admit that men are usually the more aggressive gender?

 

This sounds like more of an issue of bitterness against women because they might have an expectation about how they would like to have a relationship. Instead of understanding that women tend to be the less agressive sex, you've instead decided to tell yourself that some women wait for men to make the first move out of a malcious desire to see men "jump through hoops". There are women out there like that. But most women that want relationships and that want a man to be the aggressor aren't interested in seeing him jump through hoops for the sake of it.

 

Stop trying to shame the women that want a man to pursue them and make the first step by pretending they are only doing it to be mean and nasty. If you are interested in a woman that is the aggressor, more power to you. Please find a woman like that. Those women aren't wrong in their approach to a relationship. And either are the women that want the man to be the aggressor either.

All fluff talk aside, you are just rationalizing your preference for taking the easiest road (one that does not require taking risks or being proactive). And you can talk about being "traditional" all you want, but you are not fooling anybody. You are obviously one of those women who favour traditional gender roles...but only when it suits them. If you really were a traditional woman, you'd be a stay at home mom who was married by the time she was 20.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Feelsgoodman

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Not sure what you mean by "being the aggressor"...sounds a bit ambiguous. If you are saying that some men (a.k.a. players) enjoy the chase, it's true. The problem with such guys is that once the chase is over, they have nothing to look forward to and move on to their next conquest.

 

No, being the aggressor has nothing to do with being a player. I'm surprised you never head the term before of a man being the aggressor. May I ask out of curiousness how old you are? It's pretty well known that men tend to be a bit more aggressive then women in general due to testosterone.

 

By being the aggressor I mean a man that takes the lead, that enjoys being the one being the leader in the relationship. He is the less passive party. In most relationships, there is one person who is slightly more dominant then the other. Or alot more dominant then the other. Some relationships these two halfs are perfect balanced. In any of these reltionships, no person is "wrong" for being a certain way. It's just who they are.

 

Many a woman doesn't understand this dynamic and acts all shocked when a guy who was showering her with attention and appeared super interested all of a sudden drops her like a hot potato. Well, there is nothing shocking about this at all. Players are called that for a reason. Once they finish the game, there's nothing left...other than starting a new one.

 

You're getting into a different subject. No one was talking about players. It seems to me that you are just looking at reasons to berate women. Women are "lazy" if they don't want to be the more aggressive party. Now you're talking about how it's a woman's fault if a man uses her. Okay. Everything is all women's fault. Feel better now?

 

A man can be strong, power, dominant and the aggressive and not be a player. Infact, players tend to be insecure about their own worth which is why they always need to be reaffirmed of it by new women.

 

Guys who are not players don't chase aggressively.

 

Yes they do. I know many good men that are both aggressive and respectful of women. Being aggressive has nothing to do with being a player.

 

It's just not in their nature. So if you want to be wooed, you have to accept the fact that you will be nothing more than short-term entertainment.

 

I'll give you the phone number of a few of my long term exes and you can talk to them about how short-term I was with them and how they pursued me.

 

Look, I have nothing wrong with women that pursue men. I see nothing wrong with a man that wants a woman to pursue him IF he truly is passive and likes a more dominant woman and is not just using it as an excuse to be bitter to women. But how dare you shame women that aren't the pursuers, that aren't the aggressors just because you have some messed up idea that to have an equal relationship with men and women, everything must be meassured tit for tat within that relationship. Some women are more aggresive, some aren't. I suggest you go for a more aggressive women since you don't seem to much get on with women that are less aggressive.

 

Here is another way to look at it. We all have stregnths and weaknesses yes?

I don't usually go for men that have the same strengths as me. I am generally not attracted to them. I don't do it on purpose, it just seems to work out that way. I am more artistic. I usually go for guys that are more practical. Men and women are ying and yang. Partners that have strength in areas we don't help us be stronger couples. Partners that have a weakness where we don't enables us to help them. Relationsihps are a give and take. They are not a "you give a penny and I give a penny in return" If you spend your entire relationship looking for ways to measure every little gender activity you are going to make yourself crazy. And you are going to miss what being in a relationship is about. And you are going to miss all the fun there is to be had in the differences women and men have. That if we are honest, is a big part of the lure and attraction in dating and mating.

[zengirl]

I think it's a myth that if you do the approaching, the guy is somehow passive throughout the relationship. I have had a part in approaching most of the guys I've dated, and I wouldn't date a guy who was dead weight, or passive, in escalating the relationship. Giving a guy a clear indicator of interest isn't the same as chasing after him, wrestling him to the ground, and carrying him through the relationship.

 

I think it belies an insecurity, honestly, if you see someone you're interested in and you cannot take any steps towards it because you're worried it sets some kind of bad tone. I'm not saying anyone -- male or female -- should walk up to a person and fall all over themselves in an approach, as that's going to set a bad tone. Really, the approach should be somewhat mutual and have a back-and-forth quality, if it's going to go anywhere, because BOTH parties should be interested in getting to know each other.

 

At any rate, my BF is hardly passive in our relationship. He calls me and texts me all the time, plans loads of things, has had a role in escalating and deepening our relationship on most levels (physical, intellectual, emotional), and carries a good amount of the weight in the relationship. He'd carry more, or most of it, if I'd let him, but I don't see how that would be any fun for me. We're building something together, and I invest and choose to be active as well because I want to be a part of it.

 

I don't see how a relationship dynamic with a passive man OR a passive woman sounds terribly healthy. Shouldn't both be actively engaged in the relationship?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

All fluff talk aside...

 

There is no reason to put down my discussion with you. We are talking to each other as adults no?

 

 

..you are just rationalizing your preference for taking the easiest road (one that does not require taking risks or being proactive). And you can talk about being "traditional" all you want, but you are not fooling anybody. You are obviously one of those women who favour traditional gender roles...but only when it suits them. If you really were a traditional woman, you'd be a stay at home mom who was married by the time she was 20.

 

I would have loved to be married by now. But it hasn't worked that way for me. Hence my name.

 

You're wrong to shame other people for knowing what works best for them. The difference between me and you is that I acknowledge that people fit different styles of relationships. Some people are more dominant and some people aren't. You seem to think there is one flat equation that everyone fits into. And it's just untrue.

 

Cling to your bitterness about women who don't want to be the pursuers by calling them "lazy". I wonder if you would be so quick to call men that didn't want to be the pursuers (such as yourself?) the same.