Karma

[MissBee]

MM is now with his W, but he's still deceiving her by hiding his A. Therefore, he's still broken in some way. I tend to think, such brokenness limits one's capacity for happiness and peace no matter who they are with. Perhaps you did see him through some positive growth, but you also saw him as a deceiver, living an inauthentic double life. Let's hope he continues to develop into a more trustworthy partner and parent and that you heal and are open to finding someone who is already capable of an honest, authentic R.

 

I completely agree!

 

In the height of delusion after my ex and I broke up, I was jealous of the many gfs he procured shortly thereafter but reality was, he was broken so was NEVER happy; hence him even having so many different whirlwind relationships. Even when things seemed happy on the outside, I sensed he was tormented, and he was. After every new fling he would try to come back and have me in his life and say I made him better and so on....at the time I valued that and hoped like you Lynn, that that would mean I could be the one to influence his change and then we'd be together. I too felt we had a unique connection and he would constantly say I was the only woman who did this that or the X for him, with him, to , I was the only gf his mom liked and how much I improved his life; but there's a difference between a mutually fulfilling relationship, that enhances both people's growth positively and a codependent type scenario where you feel like you need to fix this person up and control the changes in their life and you are the sole one responsible for them being who they are. I couldn't change him, only he could do that and no matter how many gfs he finds, the problem lies with him, so he'll never be truly happy and content until he deals with that. No matter how special I was or you are...still doesn't matter.

 

I stopped being jealous of his gfs and started to feel lucky. I dodged a bullet, and could predict the outcome of his latest trysts. They would seem happy and so in love after 1 week; before I would feel sick to my stomach and so upset that she was getting what I used to get and what I wanted from him, but the reality was that she was oblivious to her fate, and it would be the fate of all that came before her of which I was privy. After about 3 months he would grow tired of them, start complaining, start sniffing around me, break up with them and would try to come back....smh I suppose he felt I was his backup plan, this "great girl" he could come back who would be so loving and accepting and he could do whatever he wanted then have me too and our "special connection"....NO!

 

Lynn, you say that you want him to tell his wife so that if they are "meant to be" then it will withstand it and if not he can be with you....quite honestly, that is a poor outlook. That means he would be with you by default, because his first option turned him down. You're right in wanting him to be brave, I think every OW should strive for that at least...to have the MM be brave and actually choose her after considering the cost and not: "Oh well....the BS doesn't want me anymore so now I can be with you" or after the marriage falls apart you're there like FEMA to help pick things up. That's just not a good place to be in and is a strain on a relationship. In any case, I think in a few months to a year you will be singing a different tune about this whole thing and you'll be just fine!

Edited August 28, 2011 by MissBee

[bentnotbroken]

I'm not so much "angry" she is reaping the benefits, as I am sad for me that I am not. There is a difference, however vague it appears to be.

 

And yes, I guess I thought that because of our connection and how I was appearing to transform his life....I guess I thought that he would jump at that, and want to be with someone he felt such a greater connection to. What keeps him with his wife, so he says, is their history and the pain they've gone through together....I understand that. I just wish things were different, I wish he was brave enough to move forward with me like I thought he was going to do for most of the duration of the past year. But all these outside things in his life kept happening that pushed them closer together -- their infertility, the loss of a friend of theirs, the illness of their elderly parents. He feels very needed by her and sees her as weak, like if he ever left her, she would fall apart. But I've fallen apart here and I don't know if I'll ever be able to put myself back together.

 

And I guess I agree that I feel like he's made a decision for her to still be his wife by not telling her about our A. Like it's not fair to her not to know. Not that I am going to tell her, I'm not....but sometimes I just wish he could be brave and put the truth on the table. If their marriage is strong enough to withstand it, then fine, they are "meant to be" but if not, then he would be free to be with me. It's hard, that's all.

 

 

That's because she isn't the one who would fall apart...it's him as typically cowards do when they crap on their own world and collapses from the amount of shyt they placed on others. Brave..he certainly doesn't know the meaning of the word and maybe isn't capable of spelling it. Brave is being upfront and honest and letting the chips fall where they may. He by way of cowardly acts have forced a decision on her without all the facts. That is a classic punk move.

[alexandria35]

Great post MissBee, you have a uncanny ways of taking my thoughts and expressing them better than I do.

 

I think I was a bit harsh in my last post on this thread. The truth is that I was reminded of a past ex of my own. He wasn't married and he wasn't a cheater but he had some deep problems and emotional issues. He had come from one of the most abusive childhoods I had ever heard, at least from someone I knew personally. I didn't know any of that when I met him though. When I met him the chemistry I felt with him was unlike anything I had ever experienced before in my life. He was so handsome, intelligent, articulate, caring and thoughtful. Best of all he was completely and totally smitten by me. Even more than I was smitten by him which I didn't think was even possible. I thought I had struck gold!! We totally had that soulmate, fated, struck by the stars thing going on that I hear so many OW express about their MM.

 

Within about six months of our relationship some of his flawed personality traits began to become apparent. For one thing he was very jealous and clingy, but by that time I was completely hooked by him and his words. I didn't really mind the jealous clingy side of him as it just made me feel loved and important to him (I have since learned that contol and unfounded jealousy have zero to do with love).We told each other everything about our pasts relationships. He had several long term relationships before he met me and while talking about his exgf's he always looked genuinely perplexed at what had gone wrong. After all, he had loved them and given them so much, but they simply didn't value him enough to keep him. I had jumped in with both feet and I was committed to being with him so I embarked on one of the most painful relationships I had ever been in. The highs were incredibly high and the lows were some of the darkest days of my life. Through it all he expressed deep appreciation and gratitude towards me and our relationship was full of long meaningful conversations when he would say things like 'I've never truly loved anyone until now', 'I've never had a connection like this before', 'You have have taught me about myself and about love', 'sex with you is the best sex I have ever had' etc, etc,..When I write it down here it sounds downright silly, but when he looked into my eyes and said it, it was 100 percent convincing at the time. I totally believed that I was super special and that I had changed him in a way nobody before me could have.

 

This could be a long story but I don't want to go on and on about one of my past relationships. I'll just say that we finally broke up and it was the most devastating break up of my life. I thought I would never get over it. He quickly moved on to someone new and my heart was crushed. One day I had a long conversation with the girlfriend that came after me. Another long story how that happened but I didn't seek her out, she asked to speak to me. Almost a year had passed since he and I had broken up and I thought the worst was behind me. I didn't think I could be hurt anymore than I already had been. Nothing could have prepared me for what this woman was going to say to me. There she sat in across the table from me telling me some of the things he said to her and I swear some of it was word for word the exact same things he had said to me. He had never met anyone like her, she was teaching him how to love, she was the best thing to ever happen to him. Oh my God, here it was a year later and I was being crushed all over again! And how had he described me to her? Well I was a selfish woman who didn't ever think about anyone elses feelings (sooo not true, our whole relationship had revolved around him and his feelings) and in the end I threw him away like he was worthless. Hmmm....I had heard that before. That's exactly how described the women he was with before me. As his gf, actually now she was an ex gf, talked to me, I felt like I was being beat down all over again. The pain was buffered somewhat when she told me there was a night that they had a terrible fight and later on he broke down in front of her and told her he missed me. Said that I was the biggest love of his life and he was still hurting bad over our break up. I liked hearing that but was he even telling the truth when he said that to her? Or was it just another ploy to elicit sympathy or forgiveness from her for his bad behavior?

 

After that conversation with the gf that came after me, a whole new can of worms was opened up for me. Now I had to deal with why was I so stupid to have believed everything that man had said to me? Why had I fallen so deeply in love with a man who hurt me over and over again? I had considered him the biggest love of my life. During our relationship he had become increasingly jealous, insecure, verbally abusive, manipulating, and controlling. His rages were soul sucking nightmares that used to leave me feeling beat down for weeks. This was the man I loved more deeply than I had ever loved anyone? Why the hell was that?!! I came to realize that that dysfunction had everything to do with me and little to do with him. I had sucked up and believed everything he told me about how wonderful I was because I was an odd mixture of low self-esteem and arrogance. Because I didn't have a strong sense of my own selfworth it was easy for him to inflate my ego with words. Telling me how unique and special I was to him was enough to keep me hooked because deep down I didn't think anyone but him could see just how special I was. I was arrogant because I believed my love and my devotion to him was somehow superiour to all the women he had hurt and mistreated before me. I mean really...the man was 39 years old when I met him. Of course there had been women before me and I'm sure at least a couple of them had loved him every bit as deeply as I had and I'm sure they were special too. Not just because he said so but because I know that he has always gravitated towards women who are kind, thoughtful, caring and maybe a little bit broken. I know this to be true because over the years I have come to know a couple of his exes and they are fine decent women. How stupid and arrogant of me to believe that only I could make him happy.

 

So Lynne I guess it bugged me when you spoke of your connection to him as being somehow greater and superiour to anything he has ever experienced before. Like no woman who existed before you could match your specialness. I'm not putting you down, I understand why you feel that way. Everyone thinks that when they are falling into a romantic love. That's why everybody rolls their eyes at people who are falling in love, lol...because they always act like they are the only people on the planet to experience love..LOL. But seriously, you only spent a year with this guy and since it was in secret you didnt' really get to fully know him. I know you think you did but trust me, there is a lot about him that his wife knows and you don't. It takes years to really know someone.

 

OW often speak of the MM's unwillingness to give up his wife and his history with her in derisive terms. As if he is just too weak and scared to let go of his past so he can be with the OW, the one who really matters. I just don't get that line of thinking. I value the history I have with people in my life, it means a great deal to me. Some people know me almost as well as I know myself, and not because I spent hours upon hours telling them about myself. They truly know me because of the years they have spent with me, going through life with me and I know they love me because they are still here, facing life with me. So I value history and time invested in my relationships a great great deal. I wouldn't be tossing aside a long standing history with someone I love just to chase some romantic connection with a new person. I don't think MM who chose their wives and familys over the OW are always cowards. I think they often look at both relationships and choose the relationship they consider the most valuable.

[MissBee]

Alexandria, OMG! The similarities between our experiences are so uncanny! I resonate with every element of your post and we could have dated the same man! While my A was a little while ago, I find that my experience with my more recent emotionally disturbed ex more resembles the turmoil and drama of the A experiences seen here, esp post-breakup and makes me more believe that all dubious relationships share common elements, whether they are As or not.

 

A flawed relationship is a flawed relationship, it just so happens that As are probably inherently flawed by their very nature.

[MissBee]

OW often speak of the MM's unwillingness to give up his wife and his history with her in derisive terms. As if he is just too weak and scared to let go of his past so he can be with the OW, the one who really matters. I just don't get that line of thinking. I value the history I have with people in my life, it means a great deal to me. Some people know me almost as well as I know myself, and not because I spent hours upon hours telling them about myself. They truly know me because of the years they have spent with me, going through life with me and I know they love me because they are still here, facing life with me. So I value history and time invested in my relationships a great great deal. I wouldn't be tossing aside a long standing history with someone I love just to chase some romantic connection with a new person. I don't think MM who chose their wives and familys over the OW are always cowards. I think they often look at both relationships and choose the relationship they consider the most valuable.

 

Excellent point! I think that is true.

 

I do not think that all As are about sex or the MP having zero feelings for this other person, but a choice ultimately has to be made, and when we make choices, ALL OF US make the choice we can live with. If you are not the choice he feels he can live with, not regret, will make his life better....then thank him for his time but accept that your situation was not enough for him to leave. It shouldn't be a reflection of your worth and ability to play God but just that the situation was not ideal and not meant to be.

 

My ex A partner did love me, but the point was that: choosing me was not worth it. It didn't make sense for him and his life and giving me up, while not easy, was at least easier than the other option. I understand that. I actually told him before we parted ways that I know his choice won't be me, as the truth is, if I were him I wouldn't choose me either. Not because I wasn't great, but for a real life, sustainable relationship, it made no sense. You ideally want someone who fully chooses you, because after weighing everything, YOU ARE THE BEST CHOICE! You should make sense in their world, their love for you and being with you should be something they feel is necessary, they should want to forsake all others and take the plunge....if not, then you have to accept that and appreciate that they did care but there was a limit and then find someone who finds that not having you is too much so they will choose you and accept whatever cost associated.

Edited August 28, 2011 by MissBee

[Alpha Q]

I hope this doesn't sound vindictive to ask....I'm truly just curious. Has anyone ever seen an affair that wasn't disclosed, either by the OP or the MP, eventually catch up to the MP? For instance, if the affair ends, does it ever happen that the BS eventually discovers it anyway? Even years later? Or has anyone ever seen the marriage the MP has dissolve on its own accord?

 

Yes. Sometimes the MM just can't get over the OW even years later and looks for her on facebook or google and the BW finds all that in the cache and then suspects that is the reason he hasn't touched her in forever. So she snoops and finds all the emails from years ago that he never deleted, all the photos he hid, all the keepsakes he kept tucked away in his study among his personal effects where she never looks. And then, even though it's long over, she knows he still has feelings for the OW and she realises that the OW is still as big a threat to the marriage as she was during the A, because the MM loves the OW and not the BW, and her jealousy takes over and the marriage implodes.

[Alpha Q]

A flawed relationship is a flawed relationship, it just so happens that As are probably inherently flawed by their very nature.

 

This is a general view shared by those whose As did not work out as they wanted.

 

It has to do with their outcome rather than the nature of the A.

[bentnotbroken]

This is a general view shared by those whose As did not work out as they wanted.

 

It has to do with their outcome rather than the nature of the A.

 

 

Or it has to due with the nature of lying and cheating.

[2sure]

I think more than "Karma" what the OP is asking is :

Does what comes around actually go around and/or do people really get what they deserve.

 

OP - Sure, many times affairs come to light long after they have ended. Often because the WS has cheated again. Does WS then get what they deserve? Who knows.

 

But I will tell you something. I was OW before I fell in love and married an available man. Who cheated on me.

 

Karma? Nah. Irony? You bet.

[TurningTables]

I hope this doesn't sound vindictive to ask....I'm truly just curious. Has anyone ever seen an affair that wasn't disclosed, either by the OP or the MP, eventually catch up to the MP? For instance, if the affair ends, does it ever happen that the BS eventually discovers it anyway? Even years later? Or has anyone ever seen the marriage the MP has dissolve on its own accord?

 

I just wonder sometimes, if there really is something to the idea of karma, especially in these situations, where the MP is so deliberately untruthful....if they ever have to deal with it in any real way, rather than just to keep it a secret.

 

 

I dont wish bad things, but I dont wish him well. lol

[Lostinlife4now]

I dont wish bad things, but I dont wish him well. lol

 

 

 

 

Oh my sentiments EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Turning Tables..........

[wannabdone]

I believe in Karma as simply wreaping what you sow.

 

My MM's W has known and found out multiple times. They are still married, and I believe they will stay married forever. She might buy the lines he gives her for a day or maybe two, but in the back of her mind she will always know who he is and what he has done, and will always no matter how much she puts it out of her mind, hate him on some level.

 

I often thought of the same thing. Dreamed that when I walked away the two of them would self descruct.... and how wonderful that would be. (still wouldn't mind it happening), but then I thought.... If they ever did D, he would get a chance to be in peace. Him staying married to her could possibly be the most amount of pain and agony he will ever have to go through. he will forever, until he dies wreap the lies and deceit that he sowed with her. That alone, gives me a warm and fuzzy.

[woinlove]

I believe in Karma as simply wreaping what you sow.

 

My MM's W has known and found out multiple times. They are still married, and I believe they will stay married forever. She might buy the lines he gives her for a day or maybe two, but in the back of her mind she will always know who he is and what he has done, and will always no matter how much she puts it out of her mind, hate him on some level.

 

I often thought of the same thing. Dreamed that when I walked away the two of them would self descruct.... and how wonderful that would be. (still wouldn't mind it happening), but then I thought.... If they ever did D, he would get a chance to be in peace. Him staying married to her could possibly be the most amount of pain and agony he will ever have to go through. he will forever, until he dies wreap the lies and deceit that he sowed with her. That alone, gives me a warm and fuzzy.

 

Don't understand your logic here on the bolded. If they D, he would still have to live with himself and all those past actions are part of him. He might change, but just divorcing is certainly no guarantee of that kind of change. And, for whatever reason, he chooses to stay married, so he doesn't think it is the most amount of pain and agony possible.

 

Although we would like to see fairness and justice served to those who hurt us, if one feels that treating others well is a gift to oneself, it doesn't seem so important that others reap what they sow.

[TurningTables]

I believe in Karma as simply wreaping what you sow.

 

My MM's W has known and found out multiple times. They are still married, and I believe they will stay married forever. She might buy the lines he gives her for a day or maybe two, but in the back of her mind she will always know who he is and what he has done, and will always no matter how much she puts it out of her mind, hate him on some level.

 

I often thought of the same thing. Dreamed that when I walked away the two of them would self descruct.... and how wonderful that would be. (still wouldn't mind it happening), but then I thought.... If they ever did D, he would get a chance to be in peace. Him staying married to her could possibly be the most amount of pain and agony he will ever have to go through. he will forever, until he dies wreap the lies and deceit that he sowed with her. That alone, gives me a warm and fuzzy.

 

 

I can totally identify with your post. My xMM and his W ( Ive been told are still together). Ive also been told she fell for his lies hook,line and sinker. I feel kinda sorry for her being such a doormat and with all the evidence that was before her, supported otherwise. Plus: I saw her with another guy just about a week ago, going into a resturant. Go figure! Anyways, I do look on them like this:

They will die together, but alone. How sad.

[TurningTables]

Oh my sentiments EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Turning Tables..........

 

 

LOL! Listening to Kelly Clarkson and Adele does wonders for my anger.