Is This Salvageable?

[kenc138]

Hi Everyone,

 

 

The situation is this:

 

I’ve been dating this girl for a few months, and we have excellent chemistry. It’s been attachment from day 1, and we adore each other on many levels. She is an exotic dancer as well. This is a non-issue for me as I know she is very loyal, and this is simply her job. She has a history of 4-5 year relationships with stability.

 

 

However, one day I was pretty tired and had a tough day at work. I made the mistake of telling her on the phone that I wasn’t sure if I was still 100% OK with the dancing thing. I guess the fatigue chipped away at some underlying jealousy that other men were getting the attention of the woman I wanted some attention from. I was in a bad mood, and this was an easy target to acquire. I didn’t yell or cuss, I was just very out of the blue with it and caught her off guard.

 

 

Her reaction was off the charts. She started crying and yelling citing all the sacrifices she’d made to be with me (left BF of 4 years, started looking to move out), and essentially putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on me and saying things I never knew she’d been thinking about. This event totally devastated her sense of safety and security.

 

 

She then went 2 days not communicating, not returning calls, not returning texts...complete silent treatment. I spent those 2 days groveling. I had NO idea she would be so hurt over this. In fact, she told me she planned on never talking to me again. Lesson learned.

 

 

A few days later, I sent some humorous texts to get her to open up, and she did. She came down and visited and we had an amazing night. Tons of laughter, totally into each other. The next day she called and we spent a few hours on the phone. Then she suddenly went distant again.

 

 

I cornered her today, and she said she needs space and time to heal from the pain of what happened, and that I should respect her needs and not dwell on it. She said she was intentionally keeping her distance because she was scared of getting hurt again, and that she really wants to keep talking but doesn’t want to become overly enmeshed like she was before. I asked her to be blunt and direct with me, and if she was cutting me off, just tell me now. She then got REALLY pissed off saying I was pushing the issue and jumping to conclusions and that she never even suggested anything like that.

 

 

So I just calmed her down, ended the convo peacefully, and am going to 1 text per week. I care deeply for this woman, so I’ll give her what she needs, but goddamn, I feel like she’s trying to end things OR find that perfect guy that has no hang ups with her profession. I already know that I’m 99% better than most guys when it comes to her dancing gig.

 

 

 

Since this happened, she’s also been on Facebook a lot more and seems to be trying to draw attention, but that might be a bit of a stretch.

 

 

 

I’m torn about this because we went from everything being amazing, to everything being fragile and on edge in a 3 minute time period.

 

 

Now, if she started behaving this way without any incident, I’d wonder if she just wasn’t into me and was trying to break it off. But the fact that we have excellent chemistry, and things were awesome 99% of the time makes me think this is salvageable. I also think she might be keeping me close in case she finds “the one”.

 

 

What are your thoughts on this situation? Is this salvageable? Will NC tug at the heartstrings? I need her to give me another chance to make this right but I’m wondering if too much damage has been done. I'd give anything to take that night back.

 

 

Thank you all in advance for your input.

Edited August 23, 2011 by kenc138

[123BeachFan]

You contradict yourself.

First you say her exotic dancing is a non-issue.

Then you had a weak moment and let it slip that you are jealous regarding her job (and I think that's very reasonable, but just own up to it).

And then you go on to pat yourself on the back because you are better than 99% of the guys out there, who would have a harder time than you regarding her job.

 

Listen, you will ALWAYS harbor resentment so long as you two are together, and she's an exotic dancer. And you cannot ask her to quit.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you said in the argument, but her reaction seemed a little over the top, almost her way of making sure you get it that you have no say in her career path.

 

I don't see any relationship potential here. It's a ticking time bomb.

[Mcnulty]

Sounds like she is very protective, sensitive and jumpy about her job....why?

 

The FB activity, wanting attention, it sounds to me like there may be more going on at work than she lets on.

 

I would definitely back off and play it cool...see how thing sre in a couple of weeks.

[kenc138]

Sounds like she is very protective, sensitive and jumpy about her job....why?

 

Wish I knew. She says she's passionate about it. I think it gives her a sense of control that she didn't have when she was younger (i.e. getting men to empty their wallets with little returned). Changing professions would require her to give up this control, and that's not in the cards for her. It's not the dancing I worry about, it's the other crap that goes on on the side. When I bring up concern about this, it always turns into "why are you making assumptions about my character?" I guess she's right. Why am I? Or are my questions legit?

[cowboysmavs]

So what exactly did you say? Sounds like you were making assumptions of her doing a little something "extra". I can see how that would completely turn her away whether she was or wasn't. It is weird though that she has shut you out so completely so fast over one conversation. It must have been just that right something to turn her away. In all honesty though. . I would not try and make a dancer my serious girlfriend. Its just set for disaster. I've dated one before but I NEVER let myself fall in love. She was a great girl and fun to be around but deep down I know something is different in there head to do that type of work. No disrespect to dancers! Just a generalization. Alot of them automatically harbor bad feelings towards men because guess what they see every night. The worst in men's behavior. I'm talking some nasty stuff goes on in there. The girl I dated used to tell me stories.

[kenc138]

So what exactly did you say? Sounds like you were making assumptions of her doing a little something "extra". I can see how that would completely turn her away whether she was or wasn't. It is weird though that she has shut you out so completely so fast over one conversation. It must have been just that right something to turn her away. In all honesty though. . I would not try and make a dancer my serious girlfriend. Its just set for disaster. I've dated one before but I NEVER let myself fall in love. She was a great girl and fun to be around but deep down I know something is different in there head to do that type of work. No disrespect to dancers! Just a generalization. Alot of them automatically harbor bad feelings towards men because guess what they see every night. The worst in men's behavior. I'm talking some nasty stuff goes on in there. The girl I dated used to tell me stories.

 

I never assumed anything with her. I just asked "isn't it tempting when rent is around the corner and some guy offers you $500 just for a quick grab?" It's an honest question and I was interested in what her response would be. Did I sit there and acuse her of doing extras? Not at all. It was more like me wondering how much in the dark I really am about what goes on in her club. I'm just trying to get to know her better, and I want to understand more about what her work life is like just like I would with any other woman in a different profession.

 

What set her off was the fact that I told her I wasn't 100% sure about the dancing thing, and it might be challenge at some points for me, but the majority of the time it wouldn't be (and I believe my behavior was in line with this). She mentioned that she couldn't go into work every night thinking she was making me miserable. Fair enough. But that was her assumption, not mine. If I were nearly as miserable as she was implying, I wouldn't be around.

 

Imo her reaction was over the top. Now she's playing the polar opposite and showing no interest whatsoever. I don't know, maybe I need my head examined

 

She was more upset with the fact that she got attached so fast, and made some HUGE life decisions (without talking to me about it) based on this initial attraction/attachment. Then when I started bringing up potential red flags, she blamed me for her rushed decisions. It put me in a bad spot, and totally set me up to be the fall guy when I wanted to slow things down. She threw all of it at me without discretion. That's it more or less.

[proteinshake25]

ohh man. You need to find another girl. I dated a stripper. I know exactly the feeling you were thinking. It bothered you only like a tad bit in the beginning, because the convo,feelings,everything felt so great. It's only been a few months and thats probably still steaming. Once you settle in though, it will always be something that bothers you. I never brought it up to my girl. It wasnt and envious thing for me either, it was just how perverse the things guys would ask her to do. I felt bad for her, and it bothered me from a sick way,not an envious way. Then there was the whole subject of how we'd tell family/friends what she does for a living. Her parents didnt know. You cant expect her to change either. You have to tolerate it or leave, but im telling you right now. This will always haunt you, best bet is to take off your rose colored glasses and look elsewhere.

[123BeachFan]

I never assumed anything with her. I just asked "isn't it tempting when rent is around the corner and some guy offers you $500 just for a quick grab?"

 

It would be REALLY EASY for her to hear this comment as your saying "I bet you are tempted (to the point of accepting) $500 for a quick grab when rent is around the corner." Your statement was fraught with implication.

 

But regardless, the bottom line is that you are dating an exotic dancer and you have a problem with her job.

[kenc138]

It would be REALLY EASY for her to hear this comment as your saying "I bet you are tempted (to the point of accepting) $500 for a quick grab when rent is around the corner." Your statement was fraught with implication.

 

But regardless, the bottom line is that you are dating an exotic dancer and you have a problem with her job.

 

Fair enough. Then it's something I need to think about in regard to future contact should she decide to come back. I agree with what Protein was saying. At first, things are easier to overlook because everything is so new and exciting. This is only going to get worse with time and increased comfort level.

[Downtown]

Ken, welcome to the LoveShack forum. You raise some very interesting questions, dude. My immediate concern is the strong association found between exotic dancing and personality disorders (PDs) such as BPD (Borderline PD). This association is discussed by psychologist Mary Anne Layden (Director of Education, Center for Cognitive Therapy, Dept. of Psychiatry, Univ. of Pennsylvania). She states:

Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60%-80%. One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder, and 60% had Major Depressive Episodes, These are severe psychiatric problems and many of them are connected to childhood sexual abuse. These are women who when they were little girls would get into their beds each night and roll themselves into a fetal position and every night he would come in and peel her open. The physical and visual invasion of little girl's bodies damages them psychologically and gives them a psychologically unhealthy view of sexuality. Often as adults they reenact their childhood trauma by working as strippers, Playboy models, and prostitutes. The men who, now as customers, physically and visually invade the adult women's bodies, reenact the role of the perpetrator. These women work in the sex industry because it feels like home.

See study results at

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=1078.

Also see journalist Shelby Janssen's article at

http://coloradosex2010.wordpress.com/stripping-down-the-layers-the-psychology-of-stripping-and-childhood-sexual-abuse/.

I am sensitive to this problem because my exW had been sexually molested by her own father for years during childhood. He did the same to both of her sisters. All three of them suffer from BPD. After spending a small fortune taking my exW to weekly therapy for 15 years -- to no avail -- she eventually left me. By "left me" I mean she threw a tantrum and phoned the police to have me arrested on a bogus charge of harming her. By the time I was able to get in front of a judge three days later and released from jail, she had obtained a restraining order barring me from my own home for 18 months (i.e., the time it takes to get a divorce in this State). I therefore would hate to see a young guy like you go down the same path. Although it starts off with her adoring you and giving you the most passionate sex of your lifetime, it does not end well. And the great sex quickly gets farther and farther apart.

I made the mistake of telling her on the phone that I wasn’t sure if I was still 100% OK with the dancing thing.

That is not called "making a mistake." Rather, it is called "expressing one's feelings." In a LTR, you not only have a RIGHT to express your feelings but you are OBLIGATED to do so if you hope to have a mature, healthy relationship.

I guess the fatigue chipped away at some underlying jealousy that other men were getting the attention of the woman I wanted some attention from. I was in a bad mood, and this was an easy target to acquire.

Cease! Stop it! Please don't apologize for opening up and expressing your feelings. You did well. Indeed, you did very VERY well to bring the issue up. That's called "communication."

Her reaction was off the charts. She started crying and yelling.

If your GF suffers from BPD, she has two great fears: engulfment (from intimacy) and abandonment. During the infatuation period, which can last as long as 6 months but has lasted only 2 months in your case, both of those fears are held at bay because the BPDer believes you are the perfect man -- unlike any other man. This is likely why, for the first 2 months, your relationship with her has been so perfect and heavenly. Now that the infatuation is evaporating, however, her fears are returning and you will start triggering them, i.e., triggering the tremendous anger and shame she carries inside. If you back off too far, you likely will trigger her abandonment fear. Yet, if you move too close, you will trigger her fear of engulfment, i.e., a suffocating feeling of losing one's identity. Signifcantly, if she has strong BPD traits, it will be impossible to avoid triggering one fear or the other because no "Goldilocks" middle position exists.

This event totally devastated her sense of safety and security.

Yes, if she is a BPDer, what happened was you triggered her abandonment fear. Because it is so powerful, a BPDer will make every effort to control your behavior. When you commit an infraction (e.g., expressing your feelings), you will be immediately and aggressively punished with rages, temper tantrums, hissy fits and -- as you already found out for two days -- with cold withdrawal.

She then went 2 days not communicating, not returning calls, not returning texts...complete silent treatment.

Like I said, you were being punished as part of your training.

I spent those 2 days groveling.

Yes, you were a quick learner. Such a good student.

I had NO idea she would be so hurt over this. In fact, she told me she planned on never talking to me again. Lesson learned.

Like I said, you were a quick learner. Now, however, it is important for you to UNLEARN it. What you did is pejoratively called "being a doormat." A much more charitable term for it is "walking on eggshells" (to avoid triggering the childish tantrums). This is why the best selling BPD book is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. If it were called Stop Being a Doormat, they wouldn't sell many copies.

The next day she called and we spent a few hours on the phone. Then she suddenly went distant again.

Damn, she's good at that training stuff!

She said ... she doesn’t want to become overly enmeshed like she was before.

Because BPDers have a fragile, unstable sense of who they are, they are strongly attracted to a strong, stable man who will help to keep their personalities centered and grounded. This is why they become so fearful of being abandoned by you -- losing that stabilizing influence. Yet, when you provide a BPDer exactly what she craves -- the intimacy and stabilization -- you unavoidably trigger her other great fear: engulfment. She will feel like her self identity is vanishing and she is merging into your strong personality. That is, she will be frightened by her inability to tell where "she" leaves off and "you" begin. Psychologists refer to that absense of strong personal boundaries as "enmeshment." Perhaps, then, that is what your GF was talking about when saying she had earlier become "overly enmeshed" with you. (On the other hand, if she is not a BPDer, she might have had something else in mind.)

I asked her to be blunt and direct with me, and if she was cutting me off, just tell me now. She then got REALLY pissed off saying I was pushing the issue and jumping to conclusions and that she never even suggested anything like that.

There you go again -- expressing your feelings and asking her to please warn you if she wants to end the relationship. Predictably, she promptly punished you by throwing another temper tantrum (i.e., polite term for "got really pissed off").

So I just calmed her down, ended the convo peacefully.

Because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen at about age four, she never learned how to do self-soothing to calm herself down. Hence, if your GF has strong BPD traits, your role in the relationship will be twofold. One role is to be her "soothing object," i.e., the person who calms her. If you comply, you will be harming her by destroying her only chance of having to confront her issues and learning how to do self soothing. That is, you will be an "enabler" who permits her to continue acting like a spoiled child -- and getting away with it.

 

Your second role will be as "perpetrator," a role that may have already started. Because a BPDer always believes she is "the victim," she desperately needs validation of that false self image. During the honeymoon period, you provide such validation by being her "savior." The implication, of course, is that she must be "the victim" if she is being saved from something.

 

Your days of being the savior, however, are about to get farther and fewer between. As her infatuation fades, her days of "splitting you white" (i.e., viewing you as savior) will become less frequent. That role, then, must be replaced by your role as "perpetrator," a role that satisfies her very same need of proving herself to be a perpetual victim. In brief, you will be blamed for every misfortune befalling her.

I already know that I’m 99% better than most guys when it comes to her dancing gig.

Her "dancing gig" is not the problem. Rather, it is emotional damage strongly associated with women who are highly attracted to that profession. Clearly, your GF does not regard it like a regular job or just another source of income. If that were the case, she probably would not have exploded and stopped talking for two days on being told that you are uncomfortable with that particular line of work.

I’m torn about this because we went from everything being amazing, to everything being fragile and on edge in a 3 minute time period.

If she is a BPDer, your watch is running way too fast. Typically, a BPDer will flip from adoring you to hating you (or devaluing you) in 10 seconds, not 3 minutes. One reason the anger appears so suddenly is that you don't have to do anything to create it. The anger is already there. Indeed, it's been there since early childhood. Hence, you only have to say or do some innocuous thing to trigger the rage that is already inside her.

 

Another reason that the rage appears suddenly is that a BPDer often does black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other in 10 seconds based solely on a minor infraction or idle comment. Hence, if your GF has such traits, she likely will make heavy use of terms such as "always" and "never" in describing your behavior. This is why a BPDer can get furious so quickly. And this is why she can become deeply infatuated with you almost as quickly.

We have excellent chemistry, and things were awesome 99% of the time.

If your GF is a BPDer, not only is your watch running fast but you are GREATLY understating the connection felt by the two of you. It would be electrifying. You both would be convinced you had met your soul mates. On top of that, you likely would see in her a warmth, an unmitigated joy, a passion, and a purity of expression that -- heretofore -- you had only seen in the faces of children. (Did I say that I find most high functioning BPDers to be extremely attractive and much more fun than the rest of us?)

 

This would occur because, during the infatuation period, a BPDer would emulate all the best aspects of your personality. She would like nearly all your friends. And she would enjoy doing nearly all the activities you enjoy. This process is called "mirroring." It is not the result of a BPDer trying to manipulate and deceive you. Instead, it is simply the same process she has been using since childhood to fit in, be accepted, and be loved. A BPDer does mirroring because she has no strong, stable sense of self to guide her.

 

At issue, then, is whether any abusive BPD traits are starting to appear. BPDers typically are able to maintain their infatuation for 3 to 6 months. As I said, the verbal abuse and strong controlling behavior typically do not appear until the infatuation evaporates, allowing the two fears to return.

It makes me think this [relationship] is salvageable.

Perhaps so. But, if she is an untreated BPDer, the relationship will quickly become toxic to both of you and there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix her. Only she can do that. Fortunately, there are excellent treatment programs available. But, sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.

I need her to give me another chance to make this right but I’m wondering if too much damage has been done. I'd give anything to take that night back.

I believe that, in retrospect, you will eventually realize that your action that night is one of the smartest things you've ever done. I therefore applaud you for raising your concerns. By eliciting such an outpouring of hatred and rage -- by merely expressing your reservations about her job -- you shined a bright light on what this woman's behavior may be when the infatuation evaporates and her fears return. If she will throw a temper tantrum (lasting two days) over a simple expression of your feelings, how is she going to be able to handle the real stresses that life throws at her? How will she handle the death of family members, loss of a job, raising children, or the serious illnesses that come with disease and aging?

 

Finally, Ken, I caution that her dysfunctional behavior cannot constitute a strong pattern of BPD traits unless they have been persistent in adulthood. Typically, such traits manifest themselves in the mid- to late-teens and they do NOT disappear entirely for months at a time (the only exception being the infatuation period which can be as long as six months -- or a bit longer if the relationship is a long distance one). Also, a strong pattern does not exist unless she exhibits most of the nine BPD traits at a strong level.

 

I therefore suggest that you read about these traits so you will be able to spot the red flags if -- like the tantrums and cold withdrawal you've already seen -- they appear in the next few months. For a brief overview of such traits on this forum, you may want to look at my description of them in GreenEyedRebel's thread. My posts there start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735. If more dysfunctional traits do start appearing, I also suggest that you consult with a clinical psychologist -- on your own -- to get a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. For a good book, I recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I mentioned earlier. If you ultimately decide that she likely has strong BPD traits, please do NOT tell her. Doing so would almost certainly be counter-productive. Instead, simply suggest that she seek help from a psychologist.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Downtown

[kenc138]

Ken, welcome to the LoveShack forum. You raise some very interesting questions, dude. My immediate concern is the strong association found between exotic dancing and personality disorders (PDs) such as BPD (Borderline PD). This association is discussed by psychologist Mary Anne Layden (Director of Education, Center for Cognitive Therapy, Dept. of Psychiatry, Univ. of Pennsylvania). She states:

Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60%-80%. One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder, and 60% had Major Depressive Episodes, These are severe psychiatric problems and many of them are connected to childhood sexual abuse. These are women who when they were little girls would get into their beds each night and roll themselves into a fetal position and every night he would come in and peel her open. The physical and visual invasion of little girl's bodies damages them psychologically and gives them a psychologically unhealthy view of sexuality. Often as adults they reenact their childhood trauma by working as strippers, Playboy models, and prostitutes. The men who, now as customers, physically and visually invade the adult women's bodies, reenact the role of the perpetrator. These women work in the sex industry because it feels like home.

See study results at

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=1078.

Also see journalist Shelby Janssen's article at

http://coloradosex2010.wordpress.com/stripping-down-the-layers-the-psychology-of-stripping-and-childhood-sexual-abuse/.

I am sensitive to this problem because my exW had been sexually molested by her own father for years during childhood. He did the same to both of her sisters. All three of them suffer from BPD. After spending a small fortune taking my exW to weekly therapy for 15 years -- to no avail -- she eventually left me. By "left me" I mean she threw a tantrum and phoned the police to have me arrested on a bogus charge of harming her. By the time I was able to get in front of a judge three days later and released from jail, she had obtained a restraining order barring me from my own home for 18 months (i.e., the time it takes to get a divorce in this State). I therefore would hate to see a young guy like you go down the same path. Although it starts off with her adoring you and giving you the most passionate sex of your lifetime, it does not end well. And the great sex quickly gets farther and farther apart.That is not called "making a mistake." Rather, it is called "expressing one's feelings." In a LTR, you not only have a RIGHT to express your feelings but you are OBLIGATED to do so if you hope to have a mature, healthy relationship.Cease! Stop it! Please don't apologize for opening up and expressing your feelings. You did well. Indeed, you did very VERY well to bring the issue up. That's called "communication."If your GF suffers from BPD, she has two great fears: engulfment (from intimacy) and abandonment. During the infatuation period, which can last as long as 6 months but has lasted only 2 months in your case, both of those fears are held at bay because the BPDer believes you are the perfect man -- unlike any other man. This is likely why, for the first 2 months, your relationship with her has been so perfect and heavenly. Now that the infatuation is evaporating, however, her fears are returning and you will start triggering them, i.e., triggering the tremendous anger and shame she carries inside. If you back off too far, you likely will trigger her abandonment fear. Yet, if you move too close, you will trigger her fear of engulfment, i.e., a suffocating feeling of losing one's identity. Signifcantly, if she has strong BPD traits, it will be impossible to avoid triggering one fear or the other because no "Goldilocks" middle position exists.Yes, if she is a BPDer, what happened was you triggered her abandonment fear. Because it is so powerful, a BPDer will make every effort to control your behavior. When you commit an infraction (e.g., expressing your feelings), you will be immediately and aggressively punished with rages, temper tantrums, hissy fits and -- as you already found out for two days -- with cold withdrawal.Like I said, you were being punished as part of your training.Yes, you were a quick learner. Such a good student.Like I said, you were a quick learner. Now, however, it is important for you to UNLEARN it. What you did is pejoratively called "being a doormat." A much more charitable term for it is "walking on eggshells" (to avoid triggering the childish tantrums). This is why the best selling BPD book is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. If it were called Stop Being a Doormat, they wouldn't sell many copies.Damn, she's good at that training stuff!Because BPDers have a fragile, unstable sense of who they are, they are strongly attracted to a strong, stable man who will help to keep their personalities centered and grounded. This is why they become so fearful of being abandoned by you -- losing that stabilizing influence. Yet, when you provide a BPDer exactly what she craves -- the intimacy and stabilization -- you unavoidably trigger her other great fear: engulfment. She will feel like her self identity is vanishing and she is merging into your strong personality. That is, she will be frightened by her inability to tell where "she" leaves off and "you" begin. Psychologists refer to that absense of strong personal boundaries as "enmeshment." Perhaps, then, that is what your GF was talking about when saying she had earlier become "overly enmeshed" with you. (On the other hand, if she is not a BPDer, she might have had something else in mind.)There you go again -- expressing your feelings and asking her to please warn you if she wants to end the relationship. Predictably, she promptly punished you by throwing another temper tantrum (i.e., polite term for "got really pissed off").Because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen at about age four, she never learned how to do self-soothing to calm herself down. Hence, if your GF has strong BPD traits, your role in the relationship will be twofold. One role is to be her "soothing object," i.e., the person who calms her. If you comply, you will be harming her by destroying her only chance of having to confront her issues and learning how to do self soothing. That is, you will be an "enabler" who permits her to continue acting like a spoiled child -- and getting away with it.

 

Your second role will be as "perpetrator," a role that may have already started. Because a BPDer always believes she is "the victim," she desperately needs validation of that false self image. During the honeymoon period, you provide such validation by being her "savior." The implication, of course, is that she must be "the victim" if she is being saved from something.

 

Your days of being the savior, however, are about to get farther and fewer between. As her infatuation fades, her days of "splitting you white" (i.e., viewing you as savior) will become less frequent. That role, then, must be replaced by your role as "perpetrator," a role that satisfies her very same need of proving herself to be a perpetual victim. In brief, you will be blamed for every misfortune befalling her.Her "dancing gig" is not the problem. Rather, it is emotional damage strongly associated with women who are highly attracted to that profession. Clearly, your GF does not regard it like a regular job or just another source of income. If that were the case, she probably would not have exploded and stopped talking for two days on being told that you are uncomfortable with that particular line of work.If she is a BPDer, your watch is running way too fast. Typically, a BPDer will flip from adoring you to hating you (or devaluing you) in 10 seconds, not 3 minutes. One reason the anger appears so suddenly is that you don't have to do anything to create it. The anger is already there. Indeed, it's been there since early childhood. Hence, you only have to say or do some innocuous thing to trigger the rage that is already inside her.

 

Another reason that the rage appears suddenly is that a BPDer often does black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other in 10 seconds based solely on a minor infraction or idle comment. Hence, if your GF has such traits, she likely will make heavy use of terms such as "always" and "never" in describing your behavior. This is why a BPDer can get furious so quickly. And this is why she can become deeply infatuated with you almost as quickly.

If your GF is a BPDer, not only is your watch running fast but you are GREATLY understating the connection felt by the two of you. It would be electrifying. You both would be convinced you had met your soul mates. On top of that, you likely would see in her a warmth, an unmitigated joy, a passion, and a purity of expression that -- heretofore -- you had only seen in the faces of children. (Did I say that I find most high functioning BPDers to be extremely attractive and much more fun than the rest of us?)

 

This would occur because, during the infatuation period, a BPDer would emulate all the best aspects of your personality. She would like nearly all your friends. And she would enjoy doing nearly all the activities you enjoy. This process is called "mirroring." It is not the result of a BPDer trying to manipulate and deceive you. Instead, it is simply the same process she has been using since childhood to fit in, be accepted, and be loved. A BPDer does mirroring because she has no strong, stable sense of self to guide her.

 

At issue, then, is whether any abusive BPD traits are starting to appear. BPDers typically are able to maintain their infatuation for 3 to 6 months. As I said, the verbal abuse and strong controlling behavior typically do not appear until the infatuation evaporates, allowing the two fears to return.Perhaps so. But, if she is an untreated BPDer, the relationship will quickly become toxic to both of you and there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix her. Only she can do that. Fortunately, there are excellent treatment programs available. But, sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. I believe that, in retrospect, you will eventually realize that your action that night is one of the smartest things you've ever done. I therefore applaud you for raising your concerns. By eliciting such an outpouring of hatred and rage -- by merely expressing your reservations about her job -- you shined a bright light on what this woman's behavior may be when the infatuation evaporates and her fears return. If she will throw a temper tantrum (lasting two days) over a simple expression of your feelings, how is she going to be able to handle the real stresses that life throws at her? How will she handle the death of family members, loss of a job, raising children, or the serious illnesses that come with disease and aging?

 

Finally, Ken, I caution that her dysfunctional behavior cannot constitute a strong pattern of BPD traits unless they have been persistent in adulthood. Typically, such traits manifest themselves in the mid- to late-teens and they do NOT disappear entirely for months at a time (the only exception being the infatuation period which can be as long as six months -- or a bit longer if the relationship is a long distance one). Also, a strong pattern does not exist unless she exhibits most of the nine BPD traits at a strong level.

 

I therefore suggest that you read about these traits so you will be able to spot the red flags if -- like the tantrums and cold withdrawal you've already seen -- they appear in the next few months. For a brief overview of such traits on this forum, you may want to look at my description of them in GreenEyedRebel's thread. My posts there start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735. If more dysfunctional traits do start appearing, I also suggest that you consult with a clinical psychologist -- on your own -- to get a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. For a good book, I recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I mentioned earlier. If you ultimately decide that she likely has strong BPD traits, please do NOT tell her. Doing so would almost certainly be counter-productive. Instead, simply suggest that she seek help from a psychologist.

 

Downtown,

 

Thanks for taking the time to put together such an amazing response.

 

After my own struggles with narcissism and being in therapy for it for 15 years, a lot of this rings true, and I'm realizing that I'm very much codependent which is why I keep getting into relationships with these all-or-nothing, black and white personalities. I knew SOMETHING was up, I just couldn't put my finger on it. Now it all makes complete sense.

 

The allure of being the hero and caretaker is overwhelming sometimes. These women come across as attractive and in need of rescue, and they have this uncanny ability to make you feel like the most important person in the world...only to tear you apart down the road.

 

I can't tell you how many times we went out, and she would command the attention of the entire room, then run off and jump in my lap and plant a big kiss on the mouth. Huge red flag, but it felt so amazing that I just completely overlooked it.

 

I'm so glad you wrote this post when you did. I'm going to use this "distancing time" to run for the hills and never look back. You have this woman pegged perfectly. As I read through your various posts on the topic of borderline personalities, she fits the bill and if I want any kind of future with this girl, I'm going to need to fasten my seatbelt, because it's going to be a wild ride. I think I'm going to pass on this ride though...it's simply not worth it.

 

After just 2 months I already feel my sense of self diminishing, my self esteem tanking, and I'm making ridiculous, dangerous compromises I never would have dreamed of making before meeting this woman. I'm so glad you caught me at this juncture.

 

My hunch is that she'll eventually come knocking on my door again at some point. To that end, I've already determined I'm going to stand my ground and assert myself and let her know she needs professional help, and am damned sure going to tell her what she did was BS and that I deserve far better. She can kick and scream all she likes, I've got enough righteous indignation at this point to shrug it off. It would be easy to pick her apart psychologically (very easy), but like you mentioned, people with personality disorders have little to no insight into their behavior, let alone the dedication to doing the self work needed to get better and lead a successful life. Everyone else is the problem in their eyes. It's much easier for them to write the man off as "not strong enough to handle me" or "he's a loser" than it is to say "maybe I've got a problem here" or "maybe I'm the reason there is so much chaos around me all the time". Been there, done that, never again.

 

I'm very glad we uncovered this now rather than later. I had no idea that by "taking care of her", I was actually reinforcing her behavior and delaying any potential emotional development on her part. I'm not too proud of that, but lesson learned.

 

What also makes really good sense is the 'all or nothing' mentality. I could never understand why, with these women, you can be the best guy on the planet by treating them right, being there for them, respecting them and then with one false move you're suddenly the most despicable person to ever set foot in their lives. Everything good you've done up to that point is DISMISSED, and you are now garbage, a villain, and worthy of being verbally trashed, cheated on, and mocked openly to your friends and her potential lovers. It's all making sense now.

 

I'm not saying that I'm the good guy here as I've certainly made implications of mistrust and enabled her behavior, but I know for certain I've done nothing to deserve this treatment and will definitely NOT go looking for some nonexistent middle ground with this woman. My self respect hasn't gone that low yet...but it's well on its way.

 

Another thing you said that really hit home was that a "healthy" woman will not lavish the same "emotional high" upon you as the BPD sufferer. This statement was a huge reality check for me moving forward in that it's causing me to question what I really want from a relationship. Maybe a part of me lives for that infatuation period (and even the ensuing drama to an extent) where the sex is great, I'm the king of the world, and I got a hot girlfriend on my arm. I need to redefine the way I see relationships. This has been a massive wake up call.

 

And the whole thing you mentioned about how stripping can be a form of subconscious re-enactment of childhood sexual shame and abuse makes amazing sense. I'm guessing this is why she holds so dearly to this profession. As one poster above was wondering why she was so touchy about her occupation. I think when I raised concern about the dancing, it had the same effect as raising concern about any past sexual shame or abuse. She certainly responded as if that were the case.

 

My heart breaks for this girl because she's so intelligent and has a ridiculous amount of potential. She says that she knows she does, but I don't think she really believes it. Any attempts to convey this at this point have been met with either silence or outright anger. I just hope that someday she sees how much value she has.

 

Thank you so much and thank you to everyone who posted replies.

Edited August 24, 2011 by kenc138

[Downtown]

Ken, I am pleased to hear that you found the BPD information helpful. Like you, I have some codependent traits, being an excessive caregiver who finds "vulnerability" in women intoxicating. The problem is not that BPDers are hunting us down. Rather, we go looking for them. We walk right past all the stable, emotionally available women (BORING!) until we find one who desperately needs us.

 

On top of that, you are having to deal with your narcissistic traits, which make you all the more inclined to find BPDers attractive. While they are splitting you white, they smother you with adulation that "validates" the false self image (of being the perfect man) you work so hard to maintain. Even when they are splitting you black, they meet some of your other needs by giving you a vacation from intimacy.

 

Like BPDers, folks with moderate to strong narcissistic traits have difficulty handling intimacy -- and therefore become very uncomfortable when getting big uninterrupted doses of intimacy. The BPDer's tantrums and subsequent withdrawal phase therefore provide the much needed break from the suffocating feeling of having too much intimacy. As I understand it, these two reasons -- the image validation and the holidays away from intimacy -- explain why narcissists are so often attracted to BPDers. I caution that, although it might appear that these two types would make a perfect fit, that is not the case. The relationship will quickly become toxic, hurting both of them.

 

By describing the behavior of narcissists, Ken, I do not mean to imply you are a full blown narcissist. We all exhibit narcissistic traits. Indeed, a certain level of narcissism is necessary for self protection and survival. So I am only saying that, to the extent your narcissistic traits are stronger than normal, you will find yourself drawn to BPDers. And, as you already know, your codependent traits have a similar effect. Take care, Ken.

[kenc138]

Ken, I am pleased to hear that you found the BPD information helpful. Like you, I have some codependent traits, being an excessive caregiver who finds "vulnerability" in women intoxicating. The problem is not that BPDers are hunting us down. Rather, we go looking for them. We walk right past all the stable, emotionally available women (BORING!) until we find one who desperately needs us.

 

On top of that, you are having to deal with your narcissistic traits, which make you all the more inclined to find BPDers attractive. While they are splitting you white, they smother you with adulation that "validates" the false self image (of being the perfect man) you work so hard to maintain. Even when they are splitting you black, they meet some of your other needs by giving you a vacation from intimacy.

 

Like BPDers, folks with moderate to strong narcissistic traits have difficulty handling intimacy -- and therefore become very uncomfortable when getting big uninterrupted doses of intimacy. The BPDer's tantrums and subsequent withdrawal phase therefore provide the much needed break from the suffocating feeling of having too much intimacy. As I understand it, these two reasons -- the image validation and the holidays away from intimacy -- explain why narcissists are so often attracted to BPDers. I caution that, although it might appear that these two types would make a perfect fit, that is not the case. The relationship will quickly become toxic, hurting both of them.

 

By describing the behavior of narcissists, Ken, I do not mean to imply you are a full blown narcissist. We all exhibit narcissistic traits. Indeed, a certain level of narcissism is necessary for self protection and survival. So I am only saying that, to the extent your narcissistic traits are stronger than normal, you will find yourself drawn to BPDers. And, as you already know, your codependent traits have a similar effect. Take care, Ken.

 

Downtown,

 

That's very interesting. So this is a double whammy of sorts. Glad to know this going forward. I'll seriously need to re-evaluate the types of women I choose to interact with. Desperation/need for a savior/boyfriend bashing are now red flags in my book. Like you were saying, the woman in need of a savior is intoxicating to me.

 

By the way, she texted last night and acted as if nothing had ever happened. She mentioned how she was in Vegas just relaxing and that she "felt bad" for not texting me sooner. Not sure why, it's not like I was expecting a text anyway. It's almost like she was completely disconnected from any remorse about her behavior this past week and acted like dissociating from it would somehow undo what had been said/done.

 

She was informing me of when she'd be back in town, and that she missed me. Oh yea, and I guess after our fight, she got back together with her ex-BF, and they went to Vegas together...all this while getting busy on Facebook likely cybering with people. I feel like she's building a safety net of sorts so that she'll NEVER be alone...kind of like back up plans for emergency day, or that she's always looking for the greenest grass. I think she's sensing that I'm over this relationship, and she's working overdrive to find the next caretaker. Hell, she's got 7-8 regulars from her club that text/call her daily asking when she's going to work, 5 of which want to be her boyfriends and take care of her. I wonder why she's with me and my meager salary when she can be with a high roller and get taken care of.

 

At any rate, the other night at her club she claimed that she met this kid who was left there by his friends. He blew $60 bucks on dances with her, then claimed he had no ride home because he was broke. She then gave him a ride home. I personally think there was more to it than that considering she wasn't back with her ex yet, and we had just gotten into a fight (absence of an anchoring object = red flag for promiscuity in BPD I have read). She's telling me this story openly, and then at the same time she's laughing at me saying, "look, you're getting paranoid and thinking we fooled around! I can totally see it in your face!"

 

The picture is slowly coming into focus. It's time to get out of this one now.

 

Thanks for the reality check, Downtown. I'll let you know how ending it goes. Here's hoping for the best.

Edited August 25, 2011 by kenc138

[kenc138]

Just a quick update to this thread...I decided to break it off with her citing the fact she's back with her BF and we don't communicate whatsoever.

 

Her reply was very cordial and polite and she wished me the best. Kind of odd for someone who 2 weeks earlier was ready to give up her life and living situation for me.

 

Downtown, if you're reading this...what kinds of behaviors should I expect from her over the coming months if in fact she is BPD? Something tells me her calm reply won't mean a thing once she begins to paint her BF black again. How do these BPD love triangles tend to evolve?

 

Thanks!

[wilsonx]

Ken, the problem is you really need to exit this relationship mentally. Go absolute no contact with her forever. If she tries to contact you, for your own mental well being and hers, stick to NC. What if's and planning for the future is suffering pure and simple. Focus on today and live in today. I know you are looking for answers but we aren't psychics and cant tell you but having a contact with someone with bpd after the relationship ends is extremely unhealthy mentally for both the dumper and the dumpee. It's extremely toxic

[kenc138]

Ken, the problem is you really need to exit this relationship mentally. Go absolute no contact with her forever. If she tries to contact you, for your own mental well being and hers, stick to NC. What if's and planning for the future is suffering pure and simple. Focus on today and live in today. I know you are looking for answers but we aren't psychics and cant tell you but having a contact with someone with bpd after the relationship ends is extremely unhealthy mentally for both the dumper and the dumpee. It's extremely toxic

 

Thanks for the input. I'll do just that