JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Unfortunately, i'm no stranger to having a seemingly interested girl give me her number, only to never call or text back. I've kindof gotten used to trying twice and just giving up so as not to come off as a creep. With the most recent girl I met however (details in my post from yesterday), I can honestly say that I feel way more attraction (more than just physical) than I think i've ever felt. With that in mind, I've resigned myself to not giving up so easily this time, but wanted some advice on how the situation would look from the female perspective. I feel like i'm already at a disadvantage being that I'd rather be who I am than a calculated, choreographed jerk (still don't know why that approach is so successful). I'm still at only one contact attempt, but my head is spinning with the different advice from my friends. So I want to know what my LS friends think Fact is that this girl has a ton of options, and I know that i'll have to work to really spark her interest - which i'm willing to do. I just don't want to make the wrong move now and kill my chances completely. Also don't want to come off as a needy stalker (seriously - i'm not! ) Never have been good at the games...
Nikki Sahagin Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 From my opinion, and this is coming from someone in your shoes but facing the other way around - be yourself. I really like a guy at the moment who is not contacting me back. If he would just message or text me a cute reply, i'd be happy - honestly! Now I don't know this girl, or how much she likes you, or even if she does, but you might as well go in being yourself. If she doesn't react, you know you can stop wasting your time. The problem with playing games is you never know if its you they like, or if they enjoy playing games. Its also the quickest man to move on. You try, you fail, you say bye bye. But all I know is right now, the guy I like - i'd die for him to just get in touch However with a really really flakey girl, I think its best to brush them off. Flakey either means player or not into you, and that's not what you want.
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 Thanks Nikki - it's crazy how hard you can fall for someone after only a few hours, isn't it? It's a great feeling... unbelievable really - until it starts turning on you if you realize it's slipping away.
Nikki Sahagin Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Thanks Nikki - it's crazy how hard you can fall for someone after only a few hours, isn't it? It's a great feeling... unbelievable really - until it starts turning on you if you realize it's slipping away. Yes I know exactly how you feel. My guy I met only a few nights ago but a few hours and I'm mad about him already. Its a pretty cruel feeling when it comes to nothing, but good luck! You may as well try before you call it a day.
Feelsgoodman Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Unfortunately, i'm no stranger to having a seemingly interested girl give me her number, only to never call or text back. I've kindof gotten used to trying twice and just giving up so as not to come off as a creep. With the most recent girl I met however (details in my post from yesterday), I can honestly say that I feel way more attraction (more than just physical) than I think i've ever felt. With that in mind, I've resigned myself to not giving up so easily this time, but wanted some advice on how the situation would look from the female perspective. I feel like i'm already at a disadvantage being that I'd rather be who I am than a calculated, choreographed jerk (still don't know why that approach is so successful) If a girl flakes on you, it means she's not interested. Period. There's no point in contacting her again regardless of whether you are a "nice guy" or "choreographed jerk". You'd just be wasting you time.
phineas Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Ignoring a flake is the only way to get them to respect you & your time. If they flake on plans last min. I don't even bother to respond (because it's always in the form of a txt) the lowest form of communication. understand. Sometimes they will txt again to test the waters. I ignore them then also. It is assured I will run into them again some day. When I do, I am friendly but I don't waste my time with them & just move along. like clock work, they will very soon be blowing up my phone. At that point I let them know flaking is a major turn-off and they better not be disrespectful of my time again If they want a chance. not in those exact words but I convey the message clearly. This is when you figure out if the flake is one of those women who want a challange or just an attention whore because they will either go away forever or go on a date with you. but my experiance is they do wind up flaking again eventually so it's best not to do this with someone you have feelings for.
Nikki Sahagin Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 If a girl flakes on you, it means she's not interested. Period. There's no point in contacting her again regardless of whether you are a "nice guy" or "choreographed jerk". You'd just be wasting you time. ^ essentially I agree with feelsgoodman. When someone likes you, they like you, and they want to talk to you and be around you. For the most part they can't be bothered to be flakey, because they REALLY want to talk to you. However the problem starts when people choose to play games. Its hard to tell when a flake is just uninterested OR when a flake is playing a game for whatever reasons. BUT, do you want someone who doesn't like you? Or someone who wants to mess with you?
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 asking for female perspective is part of your problem. flake = liar = do not want. it's as simple as that. ask 10 random women about it and 9 of them will defend the flake. so why care what they think? dating is a process of weeding out the 9 to find the 1. so there's no reason to give a sh*t, honestly.
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 Can't say I disagree with any of the opinions so far. Guess its just harder to put it in perspective when you're all knotted up with those initial feelings. So at this point, I don't want to get ahead of myself after only one text, but any suggestions for one more contact to assess the situation before walking away? I'd hate to sign her off as an attention junkie or game player if the reality was that she simply overlooked my message or forgot to respond. Now it sounds like i'm making excuses She seemed genuine and not like that, but i've been fooled before. We also have a few friends in common, so I thought it would be less likely to flake in that situation. Don't think i'll ever understand the female mind...
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 they are all attention junkies. but that doesn't make them all dishonest and selfish. only some are that way. like i said, it's a process of weeding out the dishonest/selfish ones to find the ones who are not. expect less and you won't be disappointed, when you get more you'll be pleasantly surprised.
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 You know, one of the only two dating books I've ever found at all useful to anything (and it's still flawed as hell), the Tao of Dating for Women (the for Men one is good too; I've read it just to see how it differs) actually has a point to women about why they shouldn't flake---it lowers their interest. There are statistics to back up this phenomenon and I agree it's true. It's a little like "fake it till you make it" psychological effect, I guess: if you act as though interested, interest raises ever so slightly (this works on loads of things, not just people), and if you act as if not interested, interest declines significantly (again, works on loads of things). So: when a girl flakes, not only is she expressing her disinterest (which may be only wishy washy at that point and not full on "No"sville) but she's actively compounding it. Interesting stuff. This principle is seen equally in both genders so would apply to men as well, though as men are often the pursuer, it is not as commonly found in this precise way.
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 was the chapter after flaking about registering on loveshack to look for people to agree with and justify the flakiness?
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 Interesting zengirl... I still don't see how quickly people can turn wishy-washy after such an enthusiastic encounter (with the talk of setting up a date!). If interest was lost that quickly at least say something. I don't think i've ever let anyone hang like that in my life. Regardless, good points so far. Would still be nice not to be in "full on no's-ville" but it is what it is. Plan to send one more open ended message for my own sanity, but after that it's probably out of my hands. Tired of being forced to constantly lower my expectations to keep from getting hurt. Wonder if it'll ever be my turn...
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 listen to what phineas said. every message you send furthers her actions. the solution is not to give her more attention, the solution is to take it away. and when you get a hint of flakiness you write her off on the spot, if she comes back to you later you can persist casually on your own free time to try and get laid if you like, but she should be permanently relegated to backup status as soon as the flakiness is evident.
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 was the chapter after flaking about registering on loveshack to look for people to agree with and justify the flakiness? No. And I don't think the whole chapter was on flaking either. It was on bad habits to break. I have to say, while I am proud that I've never (except in two cases of real emergencies where I made it up to the guy later---a car accident literally on my way to the date and a huge work issue that came up the same day as one, neither of them first dates) flaked on a guy, I've often THOUGHT, "Ugh. . . I really wish I hadn't agreed to this" especially before first dates, so I understand why that passage is in there. I almost NEVER want to go on a first date. I HATE first dates. Despite this, I often have a good time, and now I hate them a little bit less, after so many instances of forcing my wishy washy self out of the house. But I already did/knew this before reading that section of the book; what I didn't know was how natural it was to have second thoughts before a first/early date. Apparently a lot of people have them. Interesting zengirl... I still don't see how quickly people can turn wishy-washy after such an enthusiastic encounter (with the talk of setting up a date!). If interest was lost that quickly at least say something. I don't think i've ever let anyone hang like that in my life. Regardless, good points so far. Would still be nice not to be in "full on no's-ville" but it is what it is. Plan to send one more open ended message for my own sanity, but after that it's probably out of my hands. Tired of being forced to constantly lower my expectations to keep from getting hurt. Wonder if it'll ever be my turn... Eh, see my analysis above. Or conversely, the person may never have been as interested as they seemed or circumstances could've changed. I will say, there are times guys have made a first date way in advance and I've started becoming more and more interested in a guy to the point where I wouldn't make any new dates with other guys besides that one. Well, I would likely still go on the date, but I'd be straight up with that guy, "Hey, this is bad timing, as I just started kinda seeing someone I really like, and I feel like I need to focus on that." But I'm really, really ridiculously upfront, and most people aren't like that --- and most people don't even WANT other people to be like that --- so most of the time, there's a lot going on under the surface you're not seeing. Or: people are icebergs. Totally.
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 i don't get the dislike of first dates, although a lot of women say they hate first dates for whatever reason. i mean, there are no expectations on either person before a first date, or at least there shouldn't be any. it's supposed to be casual/informative/relaxed. why dislike that?
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 i don't get the dislike of first dates, although a lot of women say they hate first dates for whatever reason. i mean, there are no expectations on either person before a first date, or at least there shouldn't be any. it's supposed to be casual/informative/relaxed. why dislike that? I don't know. My dislike of it is almost instinctive, and it is perhaps part of the female experience (socialized, not biological, I'm sure), as I've heard loads of women have the same feelings. (Not all, naturally!) But I disagree that there are no expectations. If I were to show up for a first date with no makeup on, in jeans and a ratty/cozy T, almost everyone would say: "Really, zengirl?!? WTF was that?" If I were to show up and say, "I had a really bad day at work, and I don't feel like being very social," almost everyone would say: "Really, zengirl?!? WTF was that?" If I were to show up and tell the wrong story, talk to strangers more than my date, or do any number of things that would be absolutely fine with either my current BF (who already knows me and thinks I'm awesome and has seen the full 3D version of my being) or my friends, it would be vastly inappropriate. There are TONS of expectations on a first date or with anyone who (a) doesn't know you + (b) represents potential opportunity. Even though it's casual in some ways, the very nature of it being informative -- despite only showing you a small sliver of me as a person -- makes it filled to the brim with expectations. Nothing relaxing about that, if you ask me, at least not until it starts clicking. And I'm not one who's obsessed with impressing people either; I just realize that there are loads of things you can't do with a new person that become totally natural as someone knows you more fully. And, oh, God, when it doesn't click!! How awful it is, and even more awful when one side thinks it clicks and the other side isn't feeling it, and I haven't decided which side is worse----I prefer to be the one thinking it clicks, personally, as the other side seems even more ridiculously awkward to me, knowing I'm not into a guy while he thinks it's a totally great date. Such a bummer. That said, as I said, after years of getting out there and it not being so bad, first dates bother me less. But I still think it's perhaps my least favorite stage of any relationship.
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 Maybe i'm being naïve here - but all this talk about first date anxiety... I would think that in situations like this, where you have already spent several hours one on one with the person before agreeing to continue contact; wouldn't that make the first date an easier transition as opposed to a blind or semi-blind date? At least for the pursued... The pursuer will probably always have anxiety.
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Maybe i'm being naïve here - but all this talk about first date anxiety... I would think that in situations like this, where you have already spent several hours one on one with the person before agreeing to continue contact; wouldn't that make the first date an easier transition as opposed to a blind or semi-blind date? At least for the pursued... The pursuer will probably always have anxiety. I don't consider my thing "anxiety." I'm not nervous. It's just. . . a chore. A chore with potential ramifications and potential benefits, all of which are unknown quantities. If I already knew the person, the first date dynamic is entirely different. If I've just talked to them on the phone or something, that's not knowing them though. But if it's like a friend I've known for awhile, that's a whole different kettle of fish, and in those cases, I don't get the "Ugh. . .why did I agree to this?" thing. It's just hanging out with a friend and, unlike normal, potentially kissing them this time. That's a rare dynamic for me though because friendships are created over time, and attraction is usually much more immediate.
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 That makes more sense to me I guess for once I'll not listen to my own instincts this time. She knows i'm interested, and she knows where to find me. Maybe she'll reach out at some point, would be nice. But if not, was nice feeling happy again, even if just for a few days. Appreciate the input...
thatone Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I don't know. My dislike of it is almost instinctive, and it is perhaps part of the female experience (socialized, not biological, I'm sure), as I've heard loads of women have the same feelings. (Not all, naturally!) But I disagree that there are no expectations. If I were to show up for a first date with no makeup on, in jeans and a ratty/cozy T, almost everyone would say: "Really, zengirl?!? WTF was that?" If I were to show up and say, "I had a really bad day at work, and I don't feel like being very social," almost everyone would say: "Really, zengirl?!? WTF was that?" If I were to show up and tell the wrong story, talk to strangers more than my date, or do any number of things that would be absolutely fine with either my current BF (who already knows me and thinks I'm awesome and has seen the full 3D version of my being) or my friends, it would be vastly inappropriate. There are TONS of expectations on a first date or with anyone who (a) doesn't know you + (b) represents potential opportunity. Even though it's casual in some ways, the very nature of it being informative -- despite only showing you a small sliver of me as a person -- makes it filled to the brim with expectations. Nothing relaxing about that, if you ask me, at least not until it starts clicking. And I'm not one who's obsessed with impressing people either; I just realize that there are loads of things you can't do with a new person that become totally natural as someone knows you more fully. And, oh, God, when it doesn't click!! How awful it is, and even more awful when one side thinks it clicks and the other side isn't feeling it, and I haven't decided which side is worse----I prefer to be the one thinking it clicks, personally, as the other side seems even more ridiculously awkward to me, knowing I'm not into a guy while he thinks it's a totally great date. Such a bummer. That said, as I said, after years of getting out there and it not being so bad, first dates bother me less. But I still think it's perhaps my least favorite stage of any relationship. well, as far as the attire and qualifying your remarks and other such things, i do all that when meeting anyone for the first time, never mind a date. it just seems pretty natural to me. honestly first and second dates, from a man's perspective, are the easiest. it's very easy to fish for information and simply steer conversation to whatever she responds well to. after the first few dates, but before you get into relationship territory, there's a lull in conversation at times for me, because you can run out of obvious things to talk about (by obvious i mean things she responded well to in the first couple dates that are played out by then). it's pretty rare that i approach someone and go to the effort of asking out if i'm not interested in at least multiple dates so i don't have to deal with the terrible first date types. i do my best to fish out deal breakers such as opposing interests/hobbies/lifestyles/religions/etc before the first date if at all possible.
A O Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Tired of being forced to constantly lower my expectations to keep from getting hurt. Wonder if it'll ever be my turn... I don't see a lot of flaky behavior here. I do see someone with unrealistic expectations however. I still don't see how quickly people can turn wishy-washy after such an enthusiastic encounter (with the talk of setting up a date!). If interest was lost that quickly at least say something. I don't think i've ever let anyone hang like that in my life. Clearly if this is a pattern or becomes a pattern in your interactions with women then your analysis of these situations is clearly flawed. The women aren't anywhere near as enthusiastic as you believe. And anyway, you're placing far too much importance on trying to please these women and not enough on them having to please you! .
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 well, as far as the attire and qualifying your remarks and other such things, i do all that when meeting anyone for the first time, never mind a date. it just seems pretty natural to me. Oh, yes, I do all of that when I know I'm meeting someone for the first time. (And I behave similarly to when I meet someone for the first time.) But other than a first date or a job interview---which is a whole different kettle of fish---it's pretty rare I leave the house with a specific intention to meet a new individual for the first time. Most people I meet, I meet through people at social gatherings and such. First "friend dates" from online, which I've done in foreign countries when I needed friends, are just as awkward, though slightly less since you know the person isn't going to try to kiss you. I guess, social as I am, I would prefer to hang out with myself or people I know is all. I love meeting new people, but that's once I'm already OUT and in "out" mode. honestly first and second dates, from a man's perspective, are the easiest. it's very easy to fish for information and simply steer conversation to whatever she responds well to. after the first few dates, but before you get into relationship territory, there's a lull in conversation at times for me, because you can run out of obvious things to talk about (by obvious i mean things she responded well to in the first couple dates that are played out by then). The more I get to know someone (this is almost everyone on the planet, whether I like them or not), the more I have to talk about with them. But I'm a weirdo in that regard. I am almost universally considered "easy to talk to" because of this trait. So, that's never my worry. It's more that it's a total gamble. Not a big deal in most cases, as I said, but if I'm having a bad day or feeling like I haven't had much "me" time or my friends decided to do something fun. . . it's certainly a "Oh, frack, why did I agree to this?" moment.
Author JustEmptyInside Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 You're probably at least partially right AO - but I don't consider my expectations unrealistic. I'm not looking for a guaranteed date or someone to go apartment hunting with - just a sliver of common courtesy, which seems to he disappearing more and more these days.
dispatch3d Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Zengirl gives some pretty good perspective here. I would bet some girls can't handle the "oh freck" feeling and just cancel the date. It may not be out of a lack of interest, but out of a lack of nerves to just go. Like the girl makes it into this huge deal, then can't handle going on the date. I think part of it is you are putting yourself out there a bit; Ya know, your ego is on the line. So girls get a little nervous because the guy could reject them (which would suck obviously ). I'd conject that prehaps the reason some of you suggested you search for future problems by looking for differences in opinions on things, religion, etc. might be a little self-defeating. Maybe you are just trying to find a reason to reject the other person so that you don't have to deal with you liking them, and them not liking you back?
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