Author Eternal Sunshine Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 I think a distinction needs to be made: Passion is not the same as looks. Someone can be very good-looking but you feel no passion for them at all; conversely, you might find yourself with an average-looking person but feel passion. I think "passion" is a combination of things that include looks, chemistry, personality, pheremones, etc. Yes but still, good looks and passion are highly correlated, again I feel more so for men than for women.
threebyfate Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 ES, you've come full circle again to the physical attraction thing. What's triggered it? Btw, cute haircut. It really suits you!
phineas Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I've dated some chubby girls / average women that were very cute & naughty little monkeys in the sack. Talked dirty, did anything, ect. grabbing my crotch in public under the table to bring me to an almost boil for the evenings festivities. Knows how to give a decent BJ. i'll take that over a hot chick that just lays there or can't give a bj.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Honestly, I question the legitimacy of that point. As I get older, I honestly find looks to be less important to a relationship. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I have dealt with some truly insane gorgeous women, but my good friends have agreed. Most of us have had flings or relationships that did not last with truly gorgeous women. We then found average looking women with good hearts and many other great qualities to settle down with. Speaking for myself, my current gf is not the best looking girl I have ever dated, but I do find her cute. However, she is intelligent, considerate, thoughtful, down to earth, and very easy to be in a relationship with. At the end of the day, the sex is just like it was with the really pretty girls (which is to say pretty good) and I get to enjoy curling up with someone who's company I really enjoy and know I will always have a friend in her. The more I battled with myself about looks, the more I realized my partner's looks were more about vanity and showing off to friends than it was being truly happy with my partner. The truth is that we all get old and there comes a point where a partner may not have the perfect body for us. So what? Will that hot body be there sleeping in the hospital chair for a week if you were really ill? My best friend recently did this for his wife. I know I would do the same for my gf and have absolutely no doubt she would do the same for me. In a world that largely does not give a damn if I am alive or dead, I can say this woman would not leave my side for anything. It is simply part of her character. When that is true, do I really care if she is a couple of dress sizes bigger than I usually date? No, because the world is not perfect. I have seen the other end of 30 years of marriage with someone who was physically attractive and passionate, but ended up being uncaring, financially irresponsible, and extremely selfish. Trust me when I say it makes for a much harder life than getting over superficial stuff. Well said...
Kamille Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 To me, an intellectual / emotional connection is necessary in order to feel attraction, so, in essence, I don't understand the question. That being said, I know for a fact other women think my boyfriend is physically hot (he is), but it's not even what got me interested in him. What got me interested in him was his smile and demeanor, which made me feel like he would be an easy-going, sweet, caring guy (he is). Therefore, even when I "approached" him I was paying attention to the potential emotional connection. (It's when I realized there was also an intellectual connection that I knew I was in trouble.) I think it's the same thing for him. We fit. We laugh together. We get each other. Our emotional bond has gotten deeper over the years. Our passion is now deeper than ever. I don't think pure physical attraction could have sustained that kind of passion. So the belief that passion highly correlates to physical attraction does not compute for me. Passion correlates to an emotional connection. I could (and have) "settle(d)" ie, feel attraction for someone who wasn't a "classically" attractive. I could never feel attraction for someone with whom I did not emotionally and intellectually bond.
East7 Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 In my experience, you are physically attracted to a person because you have passion for that person, not the opposite. I have met very pretty/hot women for whom I didn't feel any spark or emotionnal bond. I would forget them the next minute I left. On the other side, my most passionate relationships were with average-looking women who were able to build a fantastic emotional connection. The more I felt connected, the more I would find them cute/pretty. It is funny how some (objectively) physical flaws can become cute in your eyes when you are in love with that person. The perspective can also change with the age. Young people (up to 25-30) overestimate lookings over personality. The older you get, the more the intellectual connection becomes important.
Nexus One Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 On a related note, I actually wondered if it is possible to have too much physical attraction. From all the girls/women I've met in person I've never felt a physical attraction as intense as I felt with that girl that looks like Emma Stone. http://bit.ly/orZEH0 It felt as if the attraction hit me right down into my DNA. Every time I saw her I pulled a sort of mental Tom Cruise even though I tried to remain mentally composed, but I genuinely couldn't help it. I felt it so strong that I started to doubt whether it's even healthy to feel so intensely physically attracted to someone. I think that if she and I would ever get together I would need to get used to being around her. In that case I also would genuinely think that I would have landed one of the most beautiful women in the world, amongst the kind of women that are in a league of their own, like Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis and Emma Stone. However up to now she still hasn't reappeared, so things are kind of starting to fade. That being said, I don't want to cave on personality. I know that if things need to work out for the long term I need to definitely also crush on her personality. And that goes both ways, because who wants to be an an asymmetric relationship.
rafallus Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Honestly, I question the legitimacy of that point. As I get older, I honestly find looks to be less important to a relationship. Physical attraction is not equal to looks. Other person cannot be repulsive, but that's it. Oddly enough, I find certain girls with some aesthetic imperfections to be more stimulating than some flawless (aesthetically) Playboy Bunnies.
xxoo Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Yes but still, good looks and passion are highly correlated, again I feel more so for men than for women. I doubt this. Maybe for men and women who haven't experienced strong passion. Good looks help with initial interest (literally turning the head), but passion requires a lot more--and sometimes creeps up in the unlikeliest and inappropriate of situations. Average looking people have lots of passion and hot sex, too!
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 On a related note, I actually wondered if it is possible to have too much physical attraction. From all the girls/women I've met in person I've never felt a physical attraction as intense as I felt with that girl that looks like Emma Stone. http://bit.ly/orZEH0 It felt as if the attraction hit me right down into my DNA. Every time I saw her I pulled a sort of mental Tom Cruise even though I tried to remain mentally composed, but I genuinely couldn't help it. I felt it so strong that I started to doubt whether it's even healthy to feel so intensely physically attracted to someone. I think that if she and I would ever get together I would need to get used to being around her. In that case I also would genuinely think that I would have landed one of the most beautiful women in the world, amongst the kind of women that are in a league of their own, like Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis and Emma Stone. However up to now she still hasn't reappeared, so things are kind of starting to fade. That being said, I don't want to cave on personality. I know that if things need to work out for the long term I need to definitely also crush on her personality. And that goes both ways, because who wants to be an an asymmetric relationship. Yes, I know what you are talking about. I felt that way about my married boss for almost 4 years. I was obsessed with him to the point where just a sound of his voice made me want to jump on him (and it was purely physical). I was a complete wreck and I don't think I liked who I became during those years. I honestly don't know how I would have functioned and perform normal life tasks if we ever had a relationship. I would probably end up in a mental hospital. Plus - this kind of attraction makes you super-blind to all the red flags. However, I sometimes can't help wondering if the relationship with that type of physical attraction PLUS super intellectual and emotional connection is something I should hold out for. Does it even exist? Is it completely unrealistic to hold out for? Do most people get to marry people they feel that way about? I would think not, but then again I am a pessimist.
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 ES, you've come full circle again to the physical attraction thing. What's triggered it? Btw, cute haircut. It really suits you! Thanks TBF!, I really like my haircut You are right (as always) - something did trigger me going down the physical attraction road again. I am just not sure if I am ready to share what yet :/
Cee Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I absolutely think there are many men out there that are right for you. You don't even have to worry about indicators of rightness such as attraction or passion. The truth is that you'll KNOW. It is hard to describe the feeling of knowing that you've met the right man. But it's not passion. It is actually peace and calm. The inner self can relax into love, not struggle like a salmon against the current. You won't have to settle. People who choose their life mates for the right reasons don't settle. They might make hard choices, but that is part of life.
xxoo Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 The truth is that you'll KNOW. It is hard to describe the feeling of knowing that you've met the right man. But it's not passion. It is actually peace and calm. The inner self can relax into love, not struggle like a salmon against the current. You won't have to settle. People who choose their life mates for the right reasons don't settle. They might make hard choices, but that is part of life. I agree with you, but also believe that a person needs to be in the right emotional place for this to happen. Relaxing into love, and letting go of the search for something "better", is as much about emotional readiness as it is about meeting the right person. I did marry a man for whom I feel great passion (more than anyone else I've ever met, by far). We also share overall compatibility, and it has never felt like settling for either of us.
Nexus One Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) However, I sometimes can't help wondering if the relationship with that type of physical attraction PLUS super intellectual and emotional connection is something I should hold out for. Does it even exist? Is it completely unrealistic to hold out for? Do most people get to marry people they feel that way about? I would think not, but then again I am a pessimist. I think it exists and I have been holding out for it while I've been waiting for her to reappear, so I haven't approached other girls/women while she's been away, even though I've had several fruitful opportunities to do so. Don't get me wrong, I am wondering if I did right by having passed on those opportunities, but I'm not the kind of guy that goes for multiple women at the same time, I like to do things in serial order, that actually goes for pretty much everything in my life, as I'm not exactly a multi-tasker. Edited August 23, 2011 by Nexus One
xxoo Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 A thought--could focusing on physical attraction get in the way of finding true passion? The great passion of your life may not be wrapped in the prettiest paper!
Nexus One Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) A thought--could focusing on physical attraction get in the way of finding true passion? I think it very well could get in the way. For example, while I have been waiting for that one girl to reappear, another girl showed interest in me, but I didn't hit on her because I was in the process of waiting for that first girl. Who knows what would have happened if I did hit on her, perhaps she would have become my future wife. While in the moment such decisions may seem small, they determine the path of one's life. Edited August 23, 2011 by Nexus One
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Okay, I've read the whole thread (oh, and I agree with whomever said that haircut is very flattering, ES; quite cute). And I'm going to say something many of you are going to find kind of crazy and/or pointless: Attempting to quantify attraction is another example of where you're (general you, not you specifically, ES; most people make this mistake at least once, myself included) going wrong. Any time you quantify, calculate, compare, etc, you are assessing a relationship in the altogether wrong way, and if you approach or assess in the wrong way, you are less likely to get the results you want (assuming the results you want are an enduring and worthwhile connection; if you're looking to win the "Who's got the best-on-paper husband at the next HS reunion?" that'd be a different goal, naturally). Lots of great points in the thread. I will also add my personal feeling is closest to Cee's: You just know. Now to clarify: You don't know on everything; you don't know for sure it will work out; you don't know on the psychological and life-built pieces of compatibility that only emerge through time, but on the primal, biological, chemical pieces of compatibility; you just know. Those are always there, right from the beginning, and if you often find yourself "more attracted" to someone over time, it's because you've built a psychological wall against being attracted to that person (again; something we all do, and they're not all bad either; I'm sure there are many uneducated men I could be biologically attracted to, but I've put up that psychological wall, and it's always worked for me). That biological chemistry was there from the get-go. And thus when you talk about it in degrees as though there's some percentage to chemistry or attraction, I think what you're seeing is your psychological walls and how many of them "block" that attraction. Again, psychological blocks can be used to your advantage---they can keep out abusers, players, people who are attached, people of inappropriate age or situation, etc. They can be relatively neutral, where they show little effect. Where they're harmful is if they're irrational or wishy washy or actively impeding your ability to find a mate and be happy. All depends on what they are and why you (again, general you) have them. I would expect everyone's perspective to be unique, perhaps in a range; my data point is that the most lasting physical attraction has resulted from a strong feeling of familiarity/chemistry upon meeting, regardless of physical attributes, and growing that dynamic through time, exposure and sharing those aspects with each other. For myself, this is how a woman 'rises from the page' and, with intimacy and commitment, I could see that dynamic lasting a long time. Coming from a different gender and a different generation, but I'd say: this makes sense to me, and that whole post is probably worth reading and re-reading for anyone who has any question as to how to build lasting attraction. I have seen it done, and I do believe it can be. I also think the limiting belief of "attraction doesn't last" impedes many people. If you don't believe it can last, I can guarantee you're right. For you, at least. I think a distinction needs to be made: Passion is not the same as looks. Someone can be very good-looking but you feel no passion for them at all; conversely, you might find yourself with an average-looking person but feel passion. I think "passion" is a combination of things that include looks, chemistry, personality, pheremones, etc. Yes but still, good looks and passion are highly correlated, again I feel more so for men than for women. I know loads of men and women who would prove that thesis incorrect. Honestly, it all depends on what you mean. Objective good looks matter to people who've been socialized to believe they matter (this is not all men, but it may be more men than women overall; not sure how the generational breakdowns go, as women are getting socialized that way more these days than in the past and men seem to be getting it less than in the past). Subjective good looks matter to everyone. I went to a short retreat thing Sunday where a guy spoke about time -- the subjective and objective -- and how we have this silly notion that the objective is more "real" when really the subjective is what feels more real to us, so why can't it be more real? (What is real? etc. All that zen mindfrack stuff I like.) And I'd say that even more so about objective and subjective attractiveness. Why would anyone consider the objective more real when what they deeply experience is the subjective?
rafallus Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I know loads of men and women who would prove that thesis incorrect. Honestly, it all depends on what you mean. Objective good looks matter to people who've been socialized to believe they matter (this is not all men, but it may be more men than women overall; not sure how the generational breakdowns go, as women are getting socialized that way more these days than in the past and men seem to be getting it less than in the past). What does "objectively good looking" even mean? Comparing my opinions with friends', we failed to get a consensus for even a single person. IMO "objective beauty" is an oxymoron.
BetheButterfly Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I think physical attraction is important... before I think twice about a guy, I've always asked myself if I want to sleep with him. If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter how nice or kind or smart or accomplished or wonderful he is. To me, a marriage includes sex, and if I am not physically attracted to him, I'm not going to want to have sex with him. For me, sex is an everyday way to show love with one person. I think emotional and intellectual connections are important too, but that's not what keeps marriages/relationships together. What keeps marriages/relationships together are shared goals, commitment, and trust. Without those, then a relationship with mutual physical attraction, chemistry, emotional connection, and intellectual connection is just not going to cut it in the long term.
BetheButterfly Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) I absolutely think there are many men out there that are right for you. Sorta disagree. I speak for myself when I say I don't think there are many men out there who are right for me personally. I have, however, found the right "one" and our desire is for us to be life mates. You don't even have to worry about indicators of rightness such as attraction or passion. The truth is that you'll KNOW. It is hard to describe the feeling of knowing that you've met the right man. But it's not passion. It is actually peace and calm. The inner self can relax into love, not struggle like a salmon against the current. You won't have to settle. People who choose their life mates for the right reasons don't settle. They might make hard choices, but that is part of life.Totally agree!!! Settling is such a weird and unnatural way of looking at finding a mate. It's not settling. It's becoming a part of a beautiful 1 which includes 2 persons. It's beautiful and natural and is belonging. So instead of using the word settling, people who have met their life mate consider it to be "belonging" Life mates don't settle. They love and belong to each other. It's peace and calm and exciting and it's strong. It's a connection that leaves no room for "maybe there's someone better out there..." It is the realization "Hey, you make the earth more like Heaven!!!" Edited August 23, 2011 by BetheButterfly
East7 Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 before I think twice about a guy, I've always asked myself if I want to sleep with him. If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter how nice or kind or smart or accomplished or wonderful he is. To me, a marriage includes sex, and if I am not physically attracted to him, I'm not going to want to have sex with him. For me, sex is an everyday way to show love with one person. . Sometimes you may FIRST have no sexual attraction to someone, then when you get to know the person closer you may be like "hmmm, I wonder what it would be like under the sheets :love:" BRAIN is the biggest sex organ Either you are too young or not experienced enough..
carhill Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 In the example I provided upthread, 'objective beauty' or 'universal attractiveness' in that data point was defined by the person garnering everyone's attention and admiration, both men and women, when she entered the room. Conversely, I can enter a room and be relatively invisible if I choose. She cannot. Even dressed down and with sunglasses, eyes and heads and body language are drawn to her. I never really noticed that same quality with her BF in the beginning, since we were just pounding nails together on our remodel when I met him, but saw similar reactions from others later. Some people have 'it' and, because of it, their life path is often very different than that of a person like myself. Variety is a good thing
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 What does "objectively good looking" even mean? Comparing my opinions with friends', we failed to get a consensus for even a single person. IMO "objective beauty" is an oxymoron. In the example I provided upthread, 'objective beauty' or 'universal attractiveness' in that data point was defined by the person garnering everyone's attention and admiration, both men and women, when she entered the room. Conversely, I can enter a room and be relatively invisible if I choose. She cannot. Even dressed down and with sunglasses, eyes and heads and body language are drawn to her. I never really noticed that same quality with her BF in the beginning, since we were just pounding nails together on our remodel when I met him, but saw similar reactions from others later. Some people have 'it' and, because of it, their life path is often very different than that of a person like myself. Variety is a good thing While I agree that unlike time, which we've found a way to (supposedly ) objectively quantify, we haven't found a pure measurement for objective beauty. Though every once and awhile you see social scientists looking for one and creating measurement systems, which I find bizarre. I meant more like what carhill says. Objective = decided beautiful by the masses, whatever that means, which is more like taking a mean of subjective experiences than creating a pure objective. My point is that the only version of beauty that should matter is literally your own completely subjective, completely individual experience of it. And that often has nothing to do with that aggregated mean or "objective" version.
xxoo Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 My point is that the only version of beauty that should matter is literally your own completely subjective, completely individual experience of it. And that often has nothing to do with that aggregated mean or "objective" version. I agree. I used the term "conventional" beauty, and haven't personally found it to be closely correlated with passion. With someone who truly ignites you, their personal beauty becomes the gold standard.
torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) For me it's nearly impossible to separate physical attraction from emotional attraction. For a guy to turn me on physically, there has to be some emotional attraction there. There are a lot of objectively attractive men who don't turn me on in the slightest in a physical sense, and it's usually because they lack some other quality that gets me off like intelligence or a spark of life in their eyes. It's sort of like looking at an empty shell or slab of flesh. I feel nothing. Edited August 23, 2011 by torn_curtain
Recommended Posts