Spark1111 Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 So WW, we are back to square one..... I think. Open honest communication regarding feelings, especially to the person you should be closest to than anyone else on the planet. I think affairs start as a risk-free friendship of sorts. I'm married, maybe you are too...or not, and as such, there is no expectation of anything more. In such an environment, it becomes EASY to disclose from the heart, because, at least initially, this isn't going anywhere......but then it starts to. SO, I understand why and how it morphs. No judgement, no rejection...like I said, risk free, safe. Safe is the operative word here. What would it take to have that level of safety in your marriage? Why didn't you have it? I'm sorry. I think affairs are easy; easy to open up to a person who will not reject you; easy to disclose intimate feelings under the guise of a blossoming, but safe, friendship. Long-term relationships are HARD; too much at stake, too much emotion, too much rejection or anger or pain. Think. What would it have taken to get the safe and easy with your spouse; the type of relationship where one can speak of anything, be heard, and not be judged or rejected against someone's ego? Because those are the skills needed to sustain love long-term.
Spark1111 Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 WW, to simplify: What conditions existed that allowed an emotional connection to grow and flourish with xMOM? How were you treated? How did you respond? Why could those same conditions exist with your H? Did you attempt to recreate them with H? Why or why not? Why did you not feel safe enough with your spouse to share your most intimate thoughts and feelings? Could you/Did you ever clearly communicate this to him? Or, in typical abused child fashion did you shut down and emotionally distance yourself from him? Because he did not make you feel safe? If you hope to have a loving, long-term relationship, you need to answer these questions. Denial and detachment are wonderful tools to survive a dysfuntional family. But they are terrible in adulthood when we crave attachment with another.
Author wheelwright Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 WW, to simplify: What conditions existed that allowed an emotional connection to grow and flourish with xMOM? How were you treated? How did you respond? Why could those same conditions exist with your H? Did you attempt to recreate them with H? Why or why not? Why did you not feel safe enough with your spouse to share your most intimate thoughts and feelings? Could you/Did you ever clearly communicate this to him? Or, in typical abused child fashion did you shut down and emotionally distance yourself from him? Because he did not make you feel safe? If you hope to have a loving, long-term relationship, you need to answer these questions. Denial and detachment are wonderful tools to survive a dysfuntional family. But they are terrible in adulthood when we crave attachment with another. On the whole I agree Spark. I am going away for a few days and need to go to bed now. But I will get back to you on this. I will say I am good at communication, but when it met with long term failure after long term effort, I did detach and shut down, just as you describe.. Thanks.
analystfromhell Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Before getting married, I never thought about affairs. While early in my first marriage I didn't think about it. It only occurred to me when I discovered my spouse was having an EA. It's kind of like finances, there isn't an easy way to talk about this before, during or after the affair. If there were a battery of tests we could give, or flags we could identify before the event then all might be better but I'm not sure there is- other than honesty and responsibility. My ethical stance on affairs is the same as my stance on honesty because to my mind they amount to the same thing- a very quick and effective way to destroy the heart of a relationship- that is to destroy the trust between two partners.
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Lots of people are only here to argue. Differing viewpoints being expressed? Oh, the horror!
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I especially find it difficult to tell someone not to cheat - I have always felt they should not want to. You are, of course, correct. However, what we should be able to expect is that if our partner WANTS to cheat they wouldn't lie about it to us. Right? I mean, there are plenty of people interested in open M's. Go find one of those people if that is how they want to live their life. Why should they feel it's okay for them to foist their lifestyle choices on someone else? It would be just as wrong for someone to say, "Oh, yeah. I LOVE the idea of an open M" and then bitch when that's what they get.
reboot Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Differing viewpoints being expressed? Oh, the horror! I don't mind differing viewpoints at all. The problem is there are many people here that offer neither support nor advice (which is, omg, the main focus of this site), they spend nearly every syllable they type arguing with anyone and everyone they can entice into arguing with them. Offering a differing viewpoint can often be helpful. Arguing about that viewpoint rarely is.
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I don't mind differing viewpoints at all. The problem is there are many people here that offer neither support nor advice (which is, omg, the main focus of this site), they spend nearly every syllable they type arguing with anyone and everyone they can entice into arguing with them. Offering a differing viewpoint can often be helpful. Arguing about that viewpoint rarely is. Well, you have to supply supportive rationale for your viewpoint, otherwise why would one consider it at all? But I know what you're saying. There are posters who may have the same views on cheating or what have you, but some actually discuss the why's and wherefor's while others just basically say "STONE 'EM ALL!"
nyrias Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 maybe i am totally unrealistic, but , for me, some things are "wrong". No mater what context you place them in, they are simply wrong and while you may sympathize and understand the situation, this does not change the simple fact that they are wrong. Knowingly engaging in an activity that will hurt someone else, at least to me, is wrong. The fact that lots of other people are doing it to or that, compared to some of the other wrongs people do , it's something relatively minor does not change the fundamental fact that if i engage in such an act i will be hurting someone else. How can i justify that? to me, there really are few"grey areas" ... a lot of the time many things really are "black and white", right or wrong and "moral relativism" is simply a way for people to justify their own behavior when it hurts others. You are unrealistic. Morals are relative and never absolute. In some middle eastern countries, it is believed killing your daughter is justified if she sleeps with some men. We find it appalling and they find it normal. So don't be surprise that not everyone believes "hurting someone" is always wrong. For example, is "hurting someone" who has hurt you wrong? You may believe that, but you cannot deny that would be a gray area for many other people. Lastly, it is also unrealistic to think that people need justification for everything. Some will just DO because they CAN and they feel like it. Not everyone cares much about right and wrong, even if they agree with your definition of it.
nyrias Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Well, you have to supply supportive rationale for your viewpoint, otherwise why would one consider it at all? But I know what you're saying. There are posters who may have the same views on cheating or what have you, but some actually discuss the why's and wherefor's while others just basically say "STONE 'EM ALL!" That is why internet forums are fun place to be. You can learn a lot about human nature of the posters. I love the "STONE 'EM ALL!" posters, so easy to pick apart their logic (if they bother with it in the first place). Any extreme position is easy to pick apart, given the complexity of the subject.
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Not everyone cares much about right and wrong, even if they agree with your definition of it.Then perhaps those types of "people" should find each other and make each other miserable and leave the rest of us the hell alone.
speedster Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Well we get told numerous things by our parents. Some we even agree with. On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity? Do you ever question it? I wonder if gut reaction gets overlooked as a decent reason to uphold an argument? Honor and Integrity. No. I made on promise on my wedding day, and I keep my promises. The thing that differentiates us humans from animals is we have the ability to think between stimulus and response. While gut (initial) reactions are sometimes appropriate, reflection on those situations usually reveal a more thoughtful approach would have benefited all involved.
Spark1111 Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 You are unrealistic. Morals are relative and never absolute. In some middle eastern countries, it is believed killing your daughter is justified if she sleeps with some men. We find it appalling and they find it normal. So don't be surprise that not everyone believes "hurting someone" is always wrong. For example, is "hurting someone" who has hurt you wrong? You may believe that, but you cannot deny that would be a gray area for many other people. Lastly, it is also unrealistic to think that people need justification for everything. Some will just DO because they CAN and they feel like it. Not everyone cares much about right and wrong, even if they agree with your definition of it. Nyrias, I get your points but how is that relevant to the thread at hand? What is YOUR Stance against cheating? Is it ethical? Empathetic? Religious? Cultural? Are you even against it? Is it relevant to YOU? Have you experienced it? Did it break your heart or did you not care? Would it be right or wrong for you? I don't really care about the moral stances of other people in other nations. I care about my morals. When, and if, daughter killers ever post here, I most certainly will take them to task. I do not want to hear what others would do or base their moral judgements on. What does nyrias base moral judgements on?
woinlove Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Well we get told numerous things by our parents. Some we even agree with. On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity? Do you ever question it? I wonder if gut reaction gets overlooked as a decent reason to uphold an argument? Monogamy in either a physical sense or in emotional attachments is not important to me. But honesty, openness, respect, loyalty, trust,... are. They are important to me, both in giving and in receiving, and I like my closest relationships to have these and am want to do what I can to achieve them. Being able to give honesty, openness, respect, loyalty and being trustworthy, to me is upholding my values and integrity and living ethically with my partner. I like to surround myself most closely with people who share my values. I do continually question how to not be monogamous and adhere to the above values as well as more generally the rule of treating others with kindness. Even with honesty and openness, I find it is something that requires continual thought.
Severely Unamused Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 Monogamy in either a physical sense or in emotional attachments is not important to me. But honesty, openness, respect, loyalty, trust,... are. They are important to me, both in giving and in receiving, and I like my closest relationships to have these and am want to do what I can to achieve them. Being able to give honesty, openness, respect, loyalty and being trustworthy, to me is upholding my values and integrity and living ethically with my partner. I like to surround myself most closely with people who share my values. I do continually question how to not be monogamous and adhere to the above values as well as more generally the rule of treating others with kindness. Even with honesty and openness, I find it is something that requires continual thought. My feelings are similar to this. Although, after a relatively promiscuous past, the idea of any sort of open relationship has been completely f**ked out of me. That's only me though. After some rather nasty life experiences (I was a real b*tch when I was younger), I simply find the open and honest lifestyle far less complicated and stressful in the long run. And like woinlove, I tend to seek people that uphold a similar attitude. Let's face it: If you spend time around people that are willing to face the harsh truth and deal with it, you don't have to worry about walking on eggshells. IME it is also easier to show loyalty to and trust people who are "genuine", and reciprocate accordingly. Know what I mean? All of this pertains to my feelings on monogamy too, of course.
nyrias Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Nyrias, I get your points but how is that relevant to the thread at hand? What is YOUR Stance against cheating? Is it ethical? Empathetic? Religious? Cultural? Are you even against it? Is it relevant to YOU? Have you experienced it? Did it break your heart or did you not care? Would it be right or wrong for you? I don't really care about the moral stances of other people in other nations. I care about my morals. When, and if, daughter killers ever post here, I most certainly will take them to task. I do not want to hear what others would do or base their moral judgements on. What does nyrias base moral judgements on? This thread is about right and wrong. Then OF COURSE the context of judging is relevant. It is pretty obvious that morals are not absolutes and so sociological context is also relevant. My stance is that infidelity is a fascinating subject to study. If and when I am faced with it, i suspect I will react instinctively, just like many here. I only believe in cause and effects. Morals are just words people use to justify their views. Some adheres to their words, some don't. In that regard, i only object to cheating on the bad consequences it brings. If there are cases (and people can debate if they exist) where the consequences are not bad, then i have no problem with it. This is consistent with my stance in killing (abate examples are easier to find). For example, killing an un-armed child is a very bad thing and should be condemned. Killing Bin Laden ... i cheered for it. The action of killing is neither good nor bad. It is the result/consequence that matters. You view is very narrow though. Surely, you only care about yourself and may be those around you. Don't you have some curiosity and want to know how the human race operates?
nyrias Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 You are, of course, correct. However, what we should be able to expect is that if our partner WANTS to cheat they wouldn't lie about it to us. Right? Hmmm .. you realize the logical fallacy in your statement right? Cheating is defined as lying (and seeing other people). If they let you know, it would NOT be cheating. It would be dumping, abandonment, or open marriage. So of course they would lie, otherwise, how are they "want to cheat"? Or do you mean "want to sleep with someone else"? Cheating sometimes is harder to resist because of the secrecy component, as discussed many times on LS. So do not equate the desire to cheat with the desire to sleep with someone else. They are NOT the same thing.
donnamaybe Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Hmmm .. you realize the logical fallacy in your statement right? Cheating is defined as lying (and seeing other people). If they let you know, it would NOT be cheating. It would be dumping, abandonment, or open marriage. So of course they would lie, otherwise, how are they "want to cheat"? Or do you mean "want to sleep with someone else"? Cheating sometimes is harder to resist because of the secrecy component, as discussed many times on LS. So do not equate the desire to cheat with the desire to sleep with someone else. They are NOT the same thing. So you are saying some folks actually enjoy making promises to someone who trusts them just so they can sneak around and lie and 5h!t all over their partner's trust? Like I said, those types of "people" should hook up with each other and leave the rest of us out of their slimy lifestyle.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 Not everyone cares much about right and wrong, even if they agree with your definition of it. Most everyone cares plenty when it's them that have been wronged! I see it on here plenty. The justifications as to why a CP is rightfully cheating on their partner and how their soulmate deserves to be happy with THEM! Then things don't turn out like they planned and the MP is now wrong for treating them poorly or *gasp* lying to them! I agree with Woggles answer. I dont treat people in anyway that I wouldn't want to be treated, anything else would be a double standard. That's how I was raised by my parents. The worse thing you could do in our household was blame shift or not accept responsibility for your actions.
donnamaybe Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Not everyone cares much about right and wrong, even if they agree with your definition of it. Most everyone cares plenty when it's them that have been wronged! I see it on here plenty. The justifications as to why a CP is rightfully cheating on their partner and how their soulmate deserves to be happy with THEM! Then things don't turn out like they planned and the MP is now wrong for treating them poorly or *gasp* lying to them! I agree with Woggles answer. I dont treat people in anyway that I wouldn't want to be treated, anything else would be a double standard. That's how I was raised by my parents. The worse thing you could do in our household was blame shift or not accept responsibility for your actions. Oh, yeah. Suddenly right and wrong is a huge issue when the wrong doers are on the receiving end. Hypocrisy at its finest.
StoneCold Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Oh, yeah. Suddenly right and wrong is a huge issue when the wrong doers are on the receiving end. Hypocrisy at its finest. yeah.... the hypocrisy is a pendulum like that isnt it
nyrias Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 So you are saying some folks actually enjoy making promises to someone who trusts them just so they can sneak around and lie and 5h!t all over their partner's trust? Like I said, those types of "people" should hook up with each other and leave the rest of us out of their slimy lifestyle. Nope. I am saying your statement has a logical flaw. If you read carefully, i did not say if there are many, few or none of such folks. Only that IF such folk exists, they would not be openly telling you, otherwise it defeats their purpose. Secondly, since this site often talks about the attraction of secrecy (also NOT by me, i am just using that info), one would assume at least SOME of them exist. Sure, you would PREFER for them to hook up with each other. But of course that is a pipe dream. Chance does not favor that. Otherwise, many won't be here, would they? In fact, if you take the probability of a cheater to be 41% (based on this site http://infidelityfacts.com/infidelity-statistics.html), and if you assume it is independent of whether a spouse is a cheater, the chance of a cheater marrying to another is 16.81% (0.41 x 0.41). The chance that a cheater is married to a non-cheater is 2*0.41*(1-0.41) = 48.38%. The chance that a non-cheater is married to a non-cheater is (1-0.41)^2 = 34.81%. So you have roughly a 1/3 chance of being left alone. Of course if you use this stat: Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74% Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 68% Then the chance of being left alone is MUCH worse. The math is pretty easy to work out.
Author wheelwright Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 I went to the youtube link and I laughed. Why not the Monkies version? I take it you think the argument uncool. Or is that you with the guitar?
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