Wrong and right

[wheelwright]

Well we get told numerous things by our parents. Some we even agree with.

 

On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity?

 

Do you ever question it?

 

I wonder if gut reaction gets overlooked as a decent reason to uphold an argument?

[seren]

Well we get told numerous things by our parents. Some we even agree with.

 

On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity?

 

Do you ever question it?

 

I wonder if gut reaction gets overlooked as a decent reason to uphold an argument?

 

My parents were Quaker/Unitarians, the underlying message from then in regards to how to live life, conduct myself and for me to feel comfortable in my own skin was based upon the simple principle of doing no harm to others. I have always tried to live by this rule, not because I feared any Divine retribution, or because of my views regarding marriage or even infidelity per se, but the knowingly doing something that I know would hurt another makes me pause before acting. I have often done something because it is the right thing as opposed to the thing that would benefit me most. Not saying I have never, ever done something that has hurt another, but in the main it has been unknowingly.

 

I am known amongst people who know me as someone who is honest and am trusted, I value this. I base the value (or lack of) of infidelity on knowing that in an A, at least one person will be hurt and also on knowing that there is a simple solution. If the marriage is that bad, then leave, not easy maybe, but the right thing to do IMO.

 

I don't question my views on infidelity, I do not see myself in a situation where I could lie to the person I live with and them believing all was well, or even if they knew there were issues, that I could maintain a double life. I know me, I know how I tick, what makes me feel good and I know that being dishonest to myself is a no, no. Infidelity is not something I would ever value. I don't think that all people have A's are bad, I do, however, think that all A's are bad things as they create pain .... and so on

[dreamingoftigers]

My parents are mostly a poor example of eveything.

 

When my father's affair was revealed they went to marital counseling and she admitted to cheating on him three times while they were dating.

 

I see the damage of affairs. I have felt the impact and have decided that between the risks and the eventual outcomes that I may very while be better off snorting cocaine as a coping skill.

 

I won't do either. Furthermore my reason for not stepping outside of my marriage is contained in my signature.

[seren]

My parents are mostly a poor example of eveything.

 

When my father's affair was revealed they went to marital counseling and she admitted to cheating on him three times while they were dating.

 

I see the damage of affairs. I have felt the impact and have decided that between the risks and the eventual outcomes that I may very while be better off snorting cocaine as a coping skill.

 

I won't do either. Furthermore my reason for not stepping outside of my marriage is contained in my signature.

 

 

A very apt signature it is too. A sentiment I totally agree with. I have to live with me and I don't ever do anything that makes me uncomfortable with myself.

[bentnotbroken]

Well we get told numerous things by our parents. Some we even agree with.

 

On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity?

 

Do you ever question it?

 

I wonder if gut reaction gets overlooked as a decent reason to uphold an argument?

 

 

No matter what my parents told me, I had to decide for myself how I was going to live my life and what kind of character I wanted to nurture. I didn't need my parents to tell me that my word was going to mean more to me than to them. My belief of fidelity is mainly based in my belief in God and the covenant of marriage. I also couldn't live my life in complete opposition to how I feel as a person. I have an expectation of how I should live my life and I couldn't look myself in the face if I didn't live up to that expectation.

 

Yes, I have questioned my choice. Especially after finding out the man I thought I had married lead me to believe he had those same beliefs. I was tricked into giving years of my life to a man who not only did not have the backbone, balls or integrity to let me choose the life I wanted to live. At that time I wondered what was the point of trying to do right by him and he lie to me. Then my oldest said, how much he was disgusted by his father's actions. I knew then that I could not do the same thing and my moment of weakness was just that. A moment of weakness.

 

I am not sure what you mean by a gut reaction and what argument?

[Woggle]

I would never want to be cheated on so therefore I do not do it to others.

[bentnotbroken]

I would never want to be cheated on so therefore I do not do it to others.

 

 

Simple and to the point.

[dreamingoftigers]

A very apt signature it is too. A sentiment I totally agree with. I have to live with me and I don't ever do anything that makes me uncomfortable with myself.

 

Thank you.

 

The World's Conflicts would be 90% more tolerable if we adopted it.

 

Too many people aim for "but he/she did worse."

 

I don't care what they did. My grandchildren would care what I did.

[imagine]

Wheelwright,

 

This question is a cop out.

 

Marriage is a contract, infidelity is breaking this contract. Does it make sense to do business with liars. Would you place your emotional and financial security with someone you distrust.

 

You know the consequences for infidelity, would you like to experience it from the blunt end? Maybe it does not matter to you right now -in which case the question should be "How can I improve the relationship with my husband?"

[nyrias]

Wheelwright,

 

This question is a cop out.

 

Marriage is a contract, infidelity is breaking this contract. Does it make sense to do business with liars. Would you place your emotional and financial security with someone you distrust.

 

You know the consequences for infidelity, would you like to experience it from the blunt end? Maybe it does not matter to you right now -in which case the question should be "How can I improve the relationship with my husband?"

 

Does it make sense to do business when 50% of the deals failed (divorce rate)?

 

And "Does it make sense to do business with liars" ... of course not. The question is a non-starter. The key is that whether YOU KNOW you are doing business with liars. Good liars wont let you know they are liars.

 

In fact, if everyone knows, cheating is not possible. The whole point of cheating is that the BS will NOT know and hence do NOT have a choice not to do business with liars.

[Spark1111]

Is it an ethical stance or an empathetic one?

 

I was apparently in the same loveless, disconnected and unfulfilling marriage, yet cheating on him never crossed my mind as a means to fix or solve anything.

 

I could never hurt another person, even one I did not know!

 

You hold hard and tight to your xMM's wife telling you she did not love him, as if that was the permission you needed to fall in love with him.

 

Have you thought what your actions may have been if she had not told you that? Would it have made a difference to you? Because even if she did not love him at that moment in time, she certainly wasn't planning to divorce him, was she?

 

So her actions said otherwise, didn't they?

 

I think affairs hurt people and solve nothing; the APs, the unsuspecting spouse and the children.

 

I never wanted my children, especially my daughters, to think love and life is just happens to you. I wanted them to see a role model where if something isn't working, I make it better or I walk away after exhausting every avenue of recourse available to me.

 

I didn't want them to think someone comes in on a white steed to rescue me from my problems, my lonliness, my boredom.

 

Hell, I wanted them to see I was riding the white steed in my life so they could do it in their lives.

[UnsureinSeattle]

Well, my parents both cheated on each other before they broke up (unsure if they ever officially divorced; I don't talk to either one of them), so my moral outrage against infidelity doesn't stem from what they taught me,necessarily, but rather what they showed me.

[Owl]

WW...you know, I don't recall if I've asked you this question before or not, but I'm sure I should have.

 

What were your views on infidelity/cheating BEFORE marriage? Then during marriage before your affair? And then after your affair?

 

I'm curious if there's been a morphing of those values over time, and if you've considered those changes and the probable causes of them?

[donnamaybe]

Does it make sense to do business when 50% of the deals failed (divorce rate)?

 

And "Does it make sense to do business with liars" ... of course not. The question is a non-starter. The key is that whether YOU KNOW you are doing business with liars. Good liars wont let you know they are liars.

 

In fact, if everyone knows, cheating is not possible. The whole point of cheating is that the BS will NOT know and hence do NOT have a choice not to do business with liars.

That's not at all what this thread is about. This thread is about why people think cheating is wrong. Not the statistical probability of marriages failing.

[Woggle]

Simple and to the point.

 

If everybody applies that logic to how they treated people this world would be a much better place.

[donnamaybe]

If everybody applies that logic to how they treated people this world would be a much better place.

Yep. The Golden Rule.

[xxoo]

On what do you base your ethical stance on infidelity?

 

My stance is more psychological then ethical. I believe affairs damage relationships and families.

 

True, usually the relationships and families are already damaged. The failing marriage is like a house with bad wiring--poor connections, smoldering inside the walls, and occasional fires to extinguish. It isn't a very healthy home for anyone.

 

The house might be irreparable, and abandoned.

 

Or maybe it should be gutted and rewired, with the help of an expert.

 

But an affair is like pouring gasoline on it. KA-BOOM!

 

And, yes, the explosion does sometimes force people to move out, or rebuild with more care (or rebuild with equally bad wiring). But at what additional cost to the relationships?

 

I believe it is wrong to introduce that level of destruction into a family, esp with children in the home. Even if the other partner has introduced destruction of their own, it is wrong for ME to contribute in kind.

[bentnotbroken]

If everybody applies that logic to how they treated people this world would be a much better place.

 

 

Definately.

[no expectations]

My stance is more psychological then ethical. I believe affairs damage relationships and families.

 

True, usually the relationships and families are already damaged. The failing marriage is like a house with bad wiring--poor connections, smoldering inside the walls, and occasional fires to extinguish. It isn't a very healthy home for anyone.

 

The house might be irreparable, and abandoned.

 

Or maybe it should be gutted and rewired, with the help of an expert.

 

But an affair is like pouring gasoline on it. KA-BOOM!

 

And, yes, the explosion does sometimes force people to move out, or rebuild with more care (or rebuild with equally bad wiring). But at what additional cost to the relationships?

 

I believe it is wrong to introduce that level of destruction into a family, esp with children in the home. Even if the other partner has introduced destruction of their own, it is wrong for ME to contribute in kind.

 

This is an excellent analogy. Truly.

[reboot]

I don't understand, particularly the insinuation that there's something to argue about. There isn't. If one doesn't believe in fidelity, then that's their business. I don't believe in infidelity, and there's nothing to argue about.

[donnamaybe]

I don't understand, particularly the insinuation that there's something to argue about. There isn't. If one doesn't believe in fidelity, then that's their business. I don't believe in infidelity, and there's nothing to argue about.

 

But when people who don't believe in fidelity shove their choices on those who don't believe in cheating, it is now also the business of the faithful spouse who is getting 5h!t on.

[redtail]

I don't understand, particularly the insinuation that there's something to argue about. There isn't. If one doesn't believe in fidelity, then that's their business. I don't believe in infidelity, and there's nothing to argue about.

 

Absolutely, but I don't think the question is meant to insight an argument, mearly discussion. I also happen to agree that one's beliefs in fidelity is their business unless two people unknowingly marry someone of differing views on the subject.

[John Michael Kane]

But when people who don't believe in fidelity shove their choices on those who don't believe in cheating, it is now also the business of the faithful spouse who is getting 5h!t on.

 

Correct.....

[reboot]

Lots of people are only here to argue.

[wheelwright]

WW...you know, I don't recall if I've asked you this question before or not, but I'm sure I should have.

 

What were your views on infidelity/cheating BEFORE marriage? Then during marriage before your affair? And then after your affair?

 

I'm curious if there's been a morphing of those values over time, and if you've considered those changes and the probable causes of them?

 

Thanks for all comments. There is no need to argue really. There wasn't a provocation.

 

I think a lot of my ethics, should any here care to agree I have any worth the name, are as Spark suggests - based on empathy rather than ethics per se. So do as you would be done by has been a mainstay, and in this respect there has been a lot of gut reaction based ethics.

 

It doesn't feel nice inside to treat people in a way different to how I would like to be treated (accounting for individual and cultural differences of course).

 

Accounting for such differences can make the gut reaction jar with larger insights into others. And misunderstandings can occur in empathy, just as in discourse - perhaps what happened between xMOM's BS and myself Spark. Such problems may be naive, but that does not remove the essential nature of the problem.

 

Owl, my views have morphed - a little.

 

I tend to believe what the more measured BSs on LS say with regard to clearing up a M or clearing out. This is from experience. On a practical level, the suffering may have been less. And with regard to the children, this is an ethical stance to.

 

I don't and never have judged someone harshly for getting this wrong if they had problems in the M which they found difficult to face and resolve and which were exacerbated by the BS.

 

I regard such behaviour as naive in most cases, and I suppose always have.

 

I don't like the idea of serial cheating out of a desire for sexual exploration. When it is about emotional connection I find the issue complicated and always have.

 

I especially find it difficult to tell someone not to cheat - I have always felt they should not want to.

 

I suppose I have more knowledge now, but my stance is essentially the same.

 

Cheating shouldn't happen in a healthy R. It is indicative of dysfunction in either the individual or the R.

 

In either case, there are a whole heap of attendant issues to infidelity to consider.

 

The hurt of a BS is a symptom of a symptom. You don't root out the 'evil' by blaming the BS or the WS.

 

The part of BS hurt which is deeper and resonates with me from experience is the pain of realising the WS wanted to do what they did, and what that means for the R.

 

And gaslighting is wrong. I mean when the WS is aware the BS is in mental distress because they don't know what's going on. Should the WS not feel discomfort with this aspect of infidelity, they don't have any ethics I would consider worth much.

 

I did this to H to a significant degree, and I stepped outside of my own moral compass in so doing. I myself had been gaslighted and hurt in other ways. I don't feel good about that. Either part, naturally.

Edited August 24, 2011 by wheelwright