Author torn_curtain Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Alphas are also people-people. This guy clearly isn't. I totally disagree with this. It seems like everyone defines the word differently. I see alphas as people who are forceful, driven and assertive. I think it comes most into play in terms of how they approach their career and close interpersonal relationships than in how social/extroverted they are. Of course there are alphas who are extroverts, but I don't think that's a defining feature of type. I also know extroverts who could be defined as betas because they're more into pleasing people than getting what they want. As an example take my two uncles. One is a total extrovert with a million friends but he's also somewhat meek and he takes a backseat to his wife. The other has very few close friends but he's a driven doctor who leads a team at his hospital and everyone respects. He's way more forceful and assertive, and in conversations he tends to dominate. So you really think this is guy an alpha?? Ummmmmm.... Edited August 25, 2011 by torn_curtain
Professor X Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I totally disagree with this. It seems like everyone defines the word differently. I see alphas as people who are forceful, driven and assertive. I think it comes most into play in terms of how they approach their career and close interpersonal relationships than in how social/extroverted they are. Of course there are alphas who are extroverts, but I don't think that's a defining feature of type. I also know extroverts who could be defined as betas because they're more into pleasing people than getting what they want. As an example take my two uncles. One is a total extrovert with a million friends but he's also somewhat meek and he takes a backseat to his wife. The other has very few close friends but he's a driven doctor who leads a team at his hospital and everyone respects. He's way more forceful and assertive, and in conversations he tends to dominate. It has nothing to do with definition or being extrovert or introvert (so your examples are moot). An Alpha male can only be observed or determined within a social circle of some sort, a community if you may. Hypothetical scenario would be a man who lives on his own on an island - he can't be defined as either Alpha or Beta or even a loner since it requires some interaction with the environment (or lack thereof - loner). Official definition: The Alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank; Now you can argue what "rank" means but the point remains that you must have a community for it to be seen. And since he is a loner, a misanthrope (you did define him as such even though now you aren't sure anymore, ummm ???? ), he simply cannot be Alpha since he doesn't interact with the environment. So as SG said, Alpha are people-people (close friend, work, etc' - some sort of community they can lead) - if you think otherwise than your definition of Alpha is simply wrong.
zengirl Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 You spoon laying on the other's arm? That's so uncomfortable for me, I can't do it. I didn't realize others spoon like this. I also can't sleep on my back with a guy's arm under me. I hate that. I am constantly having to train guys NOT to do that. I'm very finicky about sleeping positions (like the princess in the princess and the pea), and for the most part can't have anyone touching me when I'm sleeping. Whenever I spoon it's just with his free arm around me, not both arms. Sometimes I like holding a guy from behind (I like the feeling of both depending on mood, although I definitely prefer little spoon), but physically you're right that it rarely works. Sometimes with the one arm underneath me, yes, but usually not ALL night or anything. I imagine a fella's arm would go to sleep. Whether it's comfortable for me would depend on a whole host of data. Usually when sleeping it's just the free arm. Unless it's super hot, I don't mind cuddling while sleeping, but I don't mind if someone doesn't. I'm an easy sleeper. I can fall asleep just about anywhere too. Official definition: The Alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank; Now you can argue what "rank" means but the point remains that you must have a community for it to be seen. Right, an Alpha is about wielding the most power. That's the typical use of the term, in current days, across literature at least. So people aren't actually Alphas or Betas intrinsically, alone, anyway. It's who they are in relation to the people around them at any given moment. A person can be an Alpha in one social situation and a Beta in another.
Mme. Chaucer Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 TC, I believe that the reason people are arguing with you about "Alpha" is that your attributing this label to your boyfriend, whom you have not ever seen in any other environment than broadcast from his room, is a prime example of how you're going overboard (in others' opinions) with this before meeting. You want an "Alpha" guy. It's fine if you go on like this; it's your business and your relationship. But if you're setting it up for failure by loading him down with labels and attributes which he may or may not turn out to posses in real life, you're probably going to be very disappointed.
Star Gazer Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 TC, I believe that the reason people are arguing with you about "Alpha" is that your attributing this label to your boyfriend, whom you have not ever seen in any other environment than broadcast from his room, is a prime example of how you're going overboard (in others' opinions) with this before meeting. You want an "Alpha" guy. It's fine if you go on like this; it's your business and your relationship. But if you're setting it up for failure by loading him down with labels and attributes which he may or may not turn out to posses in real life, you're probably going to be very disappointed. Exactly right. Again, the only person she's seen him lead is herself, and she's described herself as having boundary issues. To apply any sort of label to that behavior, simply based on the fact that she WANTS him to emulate that label, is opening herself up to a world of hurt.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) I don't understand the fascination of certain women with alpha men. I associate alpha guys with violent bastards, probably due to my time in high school. I gravitated somewhat between the nerds and the jocks and was neutral so to say, but I've seen guys who are considered alpha by girls/women beat the sh*t out of others for seemingly no apparent reason. With one of my nerdy classmates it got so bad that on one day, when they had beat the sh*t out of him during lunch break, he went home bleeding and bruised. When he came back to school months later he sat next to me in a particular class and I noticed the bandages under his sleeves and I asked him: "You slit your wrists didn't you?", "I don't want to talk about it" he said. Another nerdy classmate of mine got kicked in his back so hard by a jock that he had to be taken into intensive care surgery the same day, after which he had to recover for 3 months in the hospital. I've seen other such guys stab another classmate of mine in his back with a pencil for being fat. And this correlates exactly with the definition of alpha males in wolf packs. Alpha males(wolves) maintain their social position in the hierarchy of the pack through violence and suppression. These guys did always attract hot girls and in some instances even beautiful girls, but whenever I saw those girls falling for those guys or hearing about how they let those guys f*ck them I always got turned off. From my perspective those girls awarded those guys for their violence, that's how it felt. That's of course a silly way to look at it, because women probably look at the social status these guys have within a group and/or how confident they are, but guys look at HOW they obtained that social status and WHY they were confident and that's because they were so violent. Guys (unconsciously) tend to make threat assessments of other guys, women don't seem to do that very often, so both women and men probably have a different view on alpha males. Women are attracted to their social status and confidence, but guys see them as dangerous individuals. Whenever I find out that an attractive woman is attracted to alpha males then I get turned off by it, probably due to the things I have seen in high school. I tend to think that there must be something wrong with such women if they feel attracted to such type of guys. Edited August 26, 2011 by Nexus One
FitChick Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Sounds like you are confusing alpha males with bullies. Obama is an alpha male. Steve Jobs is an alpha male.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Sounds like you are confusing alpha males with bullies. Obama is an alpha male. Steve Jobs is an alpha male. I knew someone was going to bring that point up. All I have to say about that is that you have your definition of alpha male wrong or skewed. Alpha males tend to be bullies, because they tend to use violence and suppression to maintain their position. That being said, a president is the head of the military, commander in chief. Violence and suppression is their business. Not all bullies are alpha males though. Edited August 26, 2011 by Nexus One
Star Gazer Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 All I have to say about that is that you have your definition of alpha male wrong or skewed. Alpha males tend to be bullies, because they tend to use violence and suppression to maintain their position. This is ridiculous. Honestly. We're not talking about wild animals on in the Sahara here. We're talking about human beings. An alpha is simply a leader in his community. There are plenty of leaders who do not engage in or promote violence. MLK was an alpha. Bill Gates is an alpha. Donald Trump. Kevin Rollins. Larry Luchino. Albert Einstein. Aristotle. The character Brandon Walsh (). Alpha males write history.
zengirl Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I think Alphas in HS are probably *******s but that's because of the nature of high school culture. I think Alphas in life have to be similar *******s, to a degree, but it can be tempered with maturity, compassion, and the like. But to me an Alpha is just a powerful pack-leader type. And, again, someone who is an Alpha in one situation or at one time can be a Beta in/at another. For instance, a guy who is an Alpha in his career can totally be controlled by his Mama or a woman at home---I've seen that more than once. Healthy dynamics, IMO, eschew the principle altogether, and we ought to start with children, because, as Nexus illustrates with his example, they do some pretty terrible **** to each other over power dynamics, whether it's physical violence with the boys or psychological violence with the females (not that girls can't 'cut a bitch' and boys can't screw with each other's psyches, because certainly those both happen as well). At any rate, all of this is a moot point, but I think the notion that there should be an Alpha and a Beta in a romantic relationship is a tired 50s notion we should just discard.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 This is ridiculous. Honestly. We're not talking about wild animals on in the Sahara here. We're talking about human beings. And that's probably where the confusion about the definition of an alpha male comes from. Then again we're just as much animals. I'm not buying women's sugarcoated opinions on this, the Einsteins and Bill Gates in high school got beat up and didn't get girlfriends. I saw them get rejected when they approached girls. The violent guys on the other hand who were perceived to be the alpha males got plenty of action. I'm going by what I saw myself, not by what other people tell me.
zengirl Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 And that's probably where the confusion about the definition of an alpha male comes from. Then again we're just as much animals. I'm not buying women's sugarcoated opinions on this, the Einsteins and Bill Gates in high school got beat up and didn't get girlfriends. I saw them get rejected when they approached girls. The violent guys on the other hand who were perceived to be the alpha males got plenty of action. I'm going by what I saw myself, not by what other people tell me. I don't know about Einstein---he seems more like a loner overall to me---but I'd say Bill Gates was probably an Alpha at some time and probably a Beta at others. Again: situational.
Star Gazer Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 And that's probably where the confusion about the definition of an alpha male comes from. Then again we're just as much animals. I'm not buying women's sugarcoated opinions on this, the Einsteins and Bill Gates in high school got beat up and didn't get girlfriends. I saw them get rejected when they approached girls. The violent guys on the other hand who were perceived to be the alpha males got plenty of action. I'm going by what I saw myself, not by what other people tell me. It sounds like you think a person remains who they were in high school, and that if they were a victim then, they're doomed to never be a leader. I couldn't disagree more. Also, as I said, Alphas lead in THEIR community or PACK, not, as in your example, the popular kid in school or leaders of the entire school. I have no doubt that the nerdy guys who are grossly successful now were leaders of their nerdy group back in the day.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 It sounds like you think a person remains who they were in high school, and that if they were a victim then, they're doomed to never be a leader. I couldn't disagree more. That's not at all what I think, quite on the contrary. One of my points is actually that some of the women who were attracted to the violent alpha males in high school are now attracted to the nerds with the money. So now that the jocks are stuck in dead end jobs and the nerds are making money those nerds are now suddenly considered alpha? Give me a break, it's hypocrisy and a turn off in my opinion. I didn't like those girls then and that opinion doesn't automagically change once they switch their opinion of what an alpha male is, because that comes across as opportunistic and hypocrite. In high school they were attracted to the bastards that beat the sh*t of the future alpha males, but once those nerds become the alpha's they're suddenly good enough because now they're at the top of the ranks? My point is that those girls/women fall for guys for the wrong reasons, at least in my opinion. Alpha stands for top of the ranks, that has nothing to do with love in my opinion. Whether it's social rank maintained through violence or money. I don't see the connection between the nr1 rank and love. Which brings me back to my initial point, i.e: I don't understand the fascination of certain women with alpha men.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 Sounds like you are confusing alpha males with bullies. Obama is an alpha male. Steve Jobs is an alpha male. Well Steve Jobs IS kind of a bully and a sociopath. Some alpha males fit into this category, but not all.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) And that's probably where the confusion about the definition of an alpha male comes from. Then again we're just as much animals. I'm not buying women's sugarcoated opinions on this, the Einsteins and Bill Gates in high school got beat up and didn't get girlfriends. I saw them get rejected when they approached girls. The violent guys on the other hand who were perceived to be the alpha males got plenty of action. I'm going by what I saw myself, not by what other people tell me. Therein lies the difference in how I define alpha. I personally care more about whether they lead in their careers rather than their social lives. There are many men I consider alphas who are somewhat introverted socially. Edited August 26, 2011 by torn_curtain
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Therein lies the difference in how I define alpha. I personally care more about whether they lead in their careers rather than their social lives. There are many alphas who are somewhat introverted socially. Explain to me what leading and being nr 1 in rank has to do with love, because I don't understand it.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 That's not at all what I think, quite on the contrary. One of my points is actually that some of the women who were attracted to the violent alpha males in high school are now attracted to the nerds with the money. So now that the jocks are stuck in dead end jobs and the nerds are making money those nerds are now suddenly considered alpha? Give me a break, it's hypocrisy and a turn off in my opinion. I didn't like those girls then and that opinion doesn't automagically change once they switch their opinion of what an alpha male is, because that comes across as opportunistic and hypocrite. In high school they were attracted to the bastards that beat the sh*t of the future alpha males, but once those nerds become the alpha's they're suddenly good enough because now they're at the top of the ranks? My point is that those girls/women fall for guys for the wrong reasons, at least in my opinion. Alpha stands for top of the ranks, that has nothing to do with love in my opinion. Whether it's social rank maintained through violence or money. I don't see the connection between the nr1 rank and love. Which brings me back to my initial point, i.e: I don't understand the fascination of certain women with alpha men. Healthy women aren't attracted to bullies but it makes sense that many would be attracted to men who are professionally dominant because those men would on average tend to make better providers. Personally I am just most attracted to men who are assertive and know what they want, because I associate those qualities with masculinity and also because they benefit a relationship. Guys who are unassertive and wishy washy tend to make worse partners for obvious reasons.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 Explain to me what leading and being nr 1 in rank has to do with love, because I don't understand it. Well for one thing, a guy who leads professionally is more likely (on average) to be assertive in a love relationship. Assertiveness is hugely important to me in a partner as I hate to mind read and I have no respect for doormat types.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Well for one thing, a guy who leads professionally is more likely (on average) to be assertive in a love relationship. Assertiveness is hugely important to me in a partner as I hate to mind read and I have no respect for doormat types. Not to take a jab at you personally, but from what you've said in this thread your guy is assertive and alpha to the point that he's able to influence your decisions even over Skype conversations and you want it to stop. Which makes me wonder if you actually know what you want in a guy. and I have no respect for doormat types *reads above quote, reads topic title, reads above quote* ....hmmmm. Edited August 26, 2011 by Nexus One
Author torn_curtain Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 Not to take a jab at you personally, but from what you've said in this thread your guy is assertive and alpha to the point that he's able to influence your decisions even over Skype conversations and you want it to stop. Which makes me wonder if you actually know what you want in a guy. *reads above quote, reads topic title, reads above quote* ....hmmmm. This has more to do with my boundaries than anything about his personality. In relationships I have trouble with boundaries, which is something I'm working to improve.
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 How far do you live apart from each other and do you guys have a meetup planned?
A O Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Not to take a jab at you personally, but from what you've said in this thread your guy is assertive and alpha to the point that he's able to influence your decisions even over Skype conversations and you want it to stop. Indeed. Which makes me wonder if you actually know what you want in a guy. She knows what she wants, she just doesn't know how to handle them. In short, she turns into the type of person she despises - a doormat. Doormats have few boundaries and that is TC to a tee in these situations. As for your experiences with Alphas, Nexus. I hope you get to experience the other type of alpha, the one that most people associate alphas as being - the leader who inspires/motivates those around them to be better at whatever endeavor they are in. This has more to do with my boundaries than anything about his personality. In relationships I have trouble with boundaries, which is something I'm working to improve. It is about personality - the alpha personality. You lose your personality, your sense of self in their company. But you know this (or know that alphas present a problem to you) so that's half the problem solved already. A greater sense of self, a greater belief in oneself will help you better navigate these tricky waters. .
Nexus One Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 As for your experiences with Alphas, Nexus. I hope you get to experience the other type of alpha, the one that most people associate alphas as being - the leader who inspires/motivates those around them to be better at whatever endeavor they are in. I know people who inspire me and motivate me, but I don't use the term alpha to describe them. I simply respect them, but I generally don't feel a need to put a label on them in terms of rank.
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