torn_curtain Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Gotta nip this in the bud. I have a bad habit of not asserting my identity full force when I'm really into a guy. My natural personality is on the dominant side, and that's what prevails with guys I'm not into, but with guys I really like -- who tend to be more alpha -- I end up deferring to them more than I probably should. Actually I guess I only have two data points on this -- him and this guy I dated last fall. They are the only guys I've dated that I'd say I'm 100% into. He's demanding by nature, as am I. We're both direct, somewhat forceful people. But he's not demanding in a scary way, or about things that it really seems unreasonable to request. It's more a playful kind of pressing until I relent. I know people are quick to assume any trace of demanding equals ABUSER, so I want to be clear that he's not in any way threatening or mean. In general his personality style fits well with my own and we communicate extremely well. We're in the same field so we share our work with each other. Often. We are both extreme perfectionists. We usually see eye to eye but not always. He's very direct and also picky as hell, so he lets me know when he doesn't dig a creative decision I've made, but never in a nasty or controlling way. Anyway, I'm working on a project right now and I feel like he's become overly involved. He's really into me sharing every step of the process with him, which I'm not so comfortable with because criticism coming from him is too emotionally loaded. But he is persistent and he makes good points -- that he's genuinely excited about seeing my work and that he wants us to share our lives with each other. So I end up sharing despite myself. Basically I'm auditioning actresses for this project and he insisted that I show him the audition tapes. So I did. He doesn't like the actress that I originally wanted to cast. He wasn't forceful or controlling about it at all. He didn't try to convince me not to cast her. He just said he didn't like her and specifically why he didn't. I told him that I didn't agree with him, but it's been gnawing at me ever since. I am starting to question my own judgment. He's the only person whose judgment I'd trust over my own on this, but I respect his opinions so much that I assume if he's seeing something off it's probably off. It doesn't make sense since I like her, and everyone else does (she's well known in the theater world). But since he planted this seed of doubt in my head I've been worrying that maybe my judgment is totally wacky. Also, the bigger problem is I'm really scared of disappointing him if I choose her and it ruins the finished project for him. I really wish he just wasn't involved at all in this, but unfortunately I know I'll have to show it to him when it's done and he'll be characteristically direct if he doesn't like it. Of course I will be sad if he doesn't, and maybe even afraid he'll lose respect for me. He is extremely, extremely hard to please when it comes to creative matters, so there's a good possibility he won't like it unless everything is just so. As a result, I'm thinking about not casting this actress, and I am realizing now that most of my decisions I'm unconsciously running by myself AND his proxy in my head. Seems pretty unhealthy, right? I just really wish I didn't have to show him the finished product, because if I didn't then I wouldn't be making decisions by committee. But I know if I didn't show it to him, he'd totally flip out and and it'd become this big issue for him...maybe even leading to a split. I'm honestly kind of disturbed by how much power I give him. If I'm giving him this much now, I worry about my self control when we're no longer long distance (in a few months). I really want an equal partnership with him but it's like my MO when I respect a guy is to just let him lead. That almost feels comfortable and natural to me, it's actually kind of a turn on, even though I know it's unhealthy. I see myself falling into these patterns and I want to make the right decisions for myself. Edited August 22, 2011 by torn_curtain
Professor X Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 I highly recommend you halt all of these thoughts, bad or good, until you've actually meet him. Basically what you're doing now is over-analyzing or over thinking a situation that is largely a fantasy; And I mean no disrespect - but the truth is you haven't met and there are so many variable you haven't even began to think of which you are now filling with your own; Similar to reading a book and imagining how the movie will look like or how the actors actually look like or certain places, etc etc... This is not about this particular thread, but just the amount of threads you're opening about your "still fantasy" RS is a bit worrisome. P.S. I wouldn't call that guy "Alpha" or even "Beta" - those require a pack that you either lead or follow... he's just a loner.
Nexus One Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Personally I wouldn't want ANYONE controlling my work. I accept/allow input from colleagues, superiors, clients and business partners. But that's about it. The thought that my family, friends or SO would try to control my work does not sit well with me. I believe in the separation of work/business related matters and private matters (up to a certain level). The point where people from my private network start trying to control my work/business is where I draw the line and I'm very firm and assertive about it, nevertheless people try on a regular basis. Edited August 22, 2011 by Nexus One
A O Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 My natural personality is on the dominant side, and that's what prevails with guys I'm not into, but with guys I really like -- who tend to be more alpha -- I end up deferring to them more than I probably should. Actually I guess I only have two data points on this -- him and this guy I dated last fall. They are the only guys I've dated that I'd say I'm 100% into. Relationships can be a different beast to every other aspect of our lives. We often don't act the same way in our relationships as we do in other fields. So while you may be naturally dominant in certain areas, its pretty clear that you lose yourself in your relationships, in the arms of certain types of men. You must keep reminding yourself who you are (a competent, assertive person, etc) and you must remember what you want (to be happy and to enjoy a mutually equal/respectful, relationship and so forth). You are paramount - don't forget that. As for this project, it's your gig, you make the decisions, he needs to accept the decisions you make and you need to own this project. .
Author torn_curtain Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) You guys are all right. Thanks for the advice. I woke up this morning feeling terrible, and I realized it's because I've let myself get way too enmeshed in this relationship. I am going to tell him that I need to pull back and I need more space, especially until we meet. Edited August 22, 2011 by torn_curtain
Star Gazer Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 This is exactly why I won't date another attorney. (And law students are even worse!) While I value their opinion, I often value it too much, to the point I question my own judgment (sometimes) or get angry if I feel like my judgment is being unfairly critcized (other times) because they're only hearing about a very small piece of the puzzle. You are the one living and breathing the film, just as I am the one living and breathing my cases...at the end of the day, you know what's best. If you want an outside opinion, ask for it...but shut down unsolioted advice or anything that resembles him telling you what to do. Don't you want the end product to be YOURS, not his? (And of course, there's the whole "don't worry about this until you meet" thing...)
Mme. Chaucer Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Star! Are you letting your inner Russian Spammer out to play?
Star Gazer Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Star! Are you letting your inner Russian Spammer out to play? The spammer is stealing avatars!!
Author torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 P.S. I wouldn't call that guy "Alpha" or even "Beta" - those require a pack that you either lead or follow... he's just a loner. He's not a loner. Up until pretty recently he's always had a group of friends, but most of his buddies have moved out of state or he's grown apart fromt hem.
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 The only advice I can think of is: Tell him what you just told us (not the whole thing, but that you don't want to share as much work stuff). I love sharing work stuff, and I don't think I'd have a problem dating someone who was in the same field, though I never have in either field (well, I dated someone from work when I sold advertising for publications, but he was in the editorial department, and I dated another ESL teacher in Asia, but he doesn't want to teach as a career, as many of the teachers over there are not career-teachers). I cannot imagine anyone influencing my choices at work to the point where they weren't mine, and I cannot imagine dating someone who's opinion I didn't value, so no worries. If they disagree with me, I'm fine with that so long as they aren't disparaging towards me because of it (which is a broader issue; I'd never date someone with whom I couldn't kindly and happily disagree on occasion). If they want to be more involved than I want them to be, I'd just tell them I didn't want to share that with them and expect them to respect that. I could never date a man who didn't respect my work and respect my capability to do the work I do, nor could I date a man whose work I didn't admire and respect. As long as there is mutual respect overall, the opinions on minor details shouldn't really matter. Though most of this is made up in your head, since you allude to a lot of potential future issues. Worry is just wasted energy. The actual problem is he's bugging you to share something, and you'd rather share a bit less. Talk about that and work it out. Until you actually meet him, all thought of patterns or bigger relationship problems are kind of premature. Re: Alpha stuff (slightly tangential, but it came up in the thread) I don't know why anyone dates Alphas or Betas, personally. They're both too extreme. Alphas are all yang, and Betas are all yin. You need a little of both. But I find people use these terms in all different ways. I don't want to dominate or be dominated in a relationship. I want to share and be shared with. Mutual respect and no power struggles, please. Whenever someone brings power or control into a relationship dynamic, I'm out of there ASAP, and the Alpha/Beta label is all about power and control. So, I find it a poor label.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 The only advice I can think of is: Tell him what you just told us (not the whole thing, but that you don't want to share as much work stuff). I love sharing work stuff, and I don't think I'd have a problem dating someone who was in the same field, though I never have in either field (well, I dated someone from work when I sold advertising for publications, but he was in the editorial department, and I dated another ESL teacher in Asia, but he doesn't want to teach as a career, as many of the teachers over there are not career-teachers). I cannot imagine anyone influencing my choices at work to the point where they weren't mine, and I cannot imagine dating someone who's opinion I didn't value, so no worries. If they disagree with me, I'm fine with that so long as they aren't disparaging towards me because of it (which is a broader issue; I'd never date someone with whom I couldn't kindly and happily disagree on occasion). If they want to be more involved than I want them to be, I'd just tell them I didn't want to share that with them and expect them to respect that. I could never date a man who didn't respect my work and respect my capability to do the work I do, nor could I date a man whose work I didn't admire and respect. As long as there is mutual respect overall, the opinions on minor details shouldn't really matter. Right. Respecting a guy's work and opinions is extremely important to me, and we have that mutual respect in abundance. It's just that he sort of switches into a dominant mode when it comes to creative stuff -- though as I said never in a nasty way -- and I kind of want to keep him less involved in my own projects because of that. I spoke with him about this yesterday and we had a good conversation. He said that this is something he has always struggled with. He just slips into this mode when it comes to stuff in our field, but he told me he'll give me more space when it comes to my own projects. Re: Alpha stuff (slightly tangential, but it came up in the thread) I don't know why anyone dates Alphas or Betas, personally. They're both too extreme. Alphas are all yang, and Betas are all yin. You need a little of both. But I find people use these terms in all different ways. I don't want to dominate or be dominated in a relationship. I want to share and be shared with. Mutual respect and no power struggles, please. Whenever someone brings power or control into a relationship dynamic, I'm out of there ASAP, and the Alpha/Beta label is all about power and control. So, I find it a poor label. I think you might define alpha differently from how I do. I see alpha guys as being assertive, opinionated, driven, coming from a specific place in terms of what they want and who they are. Of course there are extreme nightmarish examples that make terrible boyfriends (thinking Orson Welles in Citizen Kane), but as I define it "alpha" covers a wide range of possible personalities. The alphas I'm most attracted to are assertive and driven but also nurturing and sweet with those they love, and generally decent to people. That's how he is. I think of beta males as being unassertive, doormatty, sometimes passive aggressive, easy-going, unopinionated, not having a very solid identity. None of those are qualities I'm attracted to. In general I like an equal partnership but I'm not going to lie -- it's occasionally hot when a guy takes control, especially during sex. There's nothing sexier than a guy who knows what he wants and goes for it.
sm1tten Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 I've never dated anyone in my exact field, but I've dated other academics and have had these issues as well. I'm generally assertive, but in relationships I can sometimes be more deferential or catering. Like you, I feel (to me oddly) comfortable letting a guy I respect take the lead when I'm so the opposite in general. I have found that I need space in my relationships so that I don't become all about the other person. And some of that space is professional. Drawing that kind of boundary sucks because you want to share and you want to get that feedback, but you don't want the pressure and you don't want the loss of control. And the other person generally doesn't take it well. But I also think it's the measure of a good partner who CAN step back and understand, not take it personally, and still be supportive.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 Just as an addition to my last post: I also love to feel protected by a guy, and I have that feeling more with guys who are on the more alpha side. I like to be the little spoon to his big spoon. With guys I've dated who are more beta, I feel like I'm usually in the big spoon position and that doesn't feel natural or right to me.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 I have found that I need space in my relationships so that I don't become all about the other person. And some of that space is professional. Drawing that kind of boundary sucks because you want to share and you want to get that feedback, but you don't want the pressure and you don't want the loss of control. And the other person generally doesn't take it well. But I also think it's the measure of a good partner who CAN step back and understand, not take it personally, and still be supportive. Right, you articulated exactly how I feel on this, especially in the last sentence. I drew a boundary with him yesterday and he seems to have taken it well and understood where I was coming from. Hopefully it works out.
Professor X Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 He's not a loner. Up until pretty recently he's always had a group of friends, but most of his buddies have moved out of state or he's grown apart fromt hem. You yourself described him as Misanthropy (Misanthropy is generalized dislike, distrust, disgust, contempt or hatred of the human species or human nature. A misanthrope is someone who holds such views or feelings; In Western philosophy, misanthropy has been connected to isolation from human society) - so all of a sudden he's actually a pack leader? Alpha? I find it hard to believe. And how do you know he's Alpha anyway, with all due respect, you never actually seen him, let alone see him with others; And no, you can't tell who's Alpha via the phone because like I said Alpha requires a pack to lead. The chapters of your story don't connect all to well. I think that either you're laying to yourself or that there's way to much space for your imaginary to play. But whatever fits you.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 23, 2011 Author Posted August 23, 2011 You yourself described him as Misanthropy (Misanthropy is generalized dislike, distrust, disgust, contempt or hatred of the human species or human nature. A misanthrope is someone who holds such views or feelings; In Western philosophy, misanthropy has been connected to isolation from human society) - so all of a sudden he's actually a pack leader? Alpha? I find it hard to believe. And how do you know he's Alpha anyway, with all due respect, you never actually seen him, let alone see him with others; And no, you can't tell who's Alpha via the phone because like I said Alpha requires a pack to lead. I may have been too hasty in calling him a misanthrope. From talking about it more I think he went through a period of disenchantment, partly because of some major health issues, but I don't get the sense this a permanent orientation he has toward the world. Alphas don't have to be social butterflies as I define them. He is a leader, especially in his professional work. But there are a lot of alphas I've known who only have a few close friends, and some who have no friends (not ones I'd probably date). The latter may be leaders in their professional work but not have any close relationships. Well, I can get a pretty good sense for how he is from video chatting. It's not as if alpha traits only emerge once you really get to know somebody for months/years like some other qualities. They're pretty apparent on the surface.
zengirl Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 The truth is, you can only get a sense for someone in a very shallow way until you're literally interacting with them, in person, day to day, in a real-life way. That's just true. While there are certainly things you can begin to assess, everything you get before then is a bit of an applied abstraction. But your guy is moving your way sometime this fall, so worry about the rest then. No real need to get ahead of yourself: you don't have to decide anything before then or put any huge pressure on yourself. You, yourself, say you rarely meet guys you like, so being exclusive till then sounds like it's no great sacrifice, especially since you enjoy communicating with your BF. There's no reason to try to preemptively worry, solve, justify, or anything else. I spoke with him about this yesterday and we had a good conversation. He said that this is something he has always struggled with. He just slips into this mode when it comes to stuff in our field, but he told me he'll give me more space when it comes to my own projects. Good. You asked for what you wanted, and you got it. Problem solved. I think you might define alpha differently from how I do. No, you're missing what I said. Always, when people speak of Alphas and Betas, they are talking about power. (Well, or the first phase of something, or the Greek alphabet, but I mean in relationship talk.) And it's a false dichotomies. Trying to divide people into Alphas and Betas is just silly, is my point, and generally comes from a place of control. It's one of the weird terms that belie a part of socialization I, personally, dislike is all. I wasn't describing any particular types of guys. Just as an addition to my last post: I also love to feel protected by a guy, and I have that feeling more with guys who are on the more alpha side. I like to be the little spoon to his big spoon. With guys I've dated who are more beta, I feel like I'm usually in the big spoon position and that doesn't feel natural or right to me. Okay, this is very tangential, I would find it very odd to be the big spoon for any length of time. (I've certainly given a guy a from-the-back hug, including in bed on occasion.) But mostly because my arms are shorter, and my whole body is teeny compared to any guy I'd date (or most guys in general). So, of course, that feels unnatural, but that seems like more a physicality issue than anything else. And sounds really weird to me. (I've dated guys who say it apparently doesn't hurt when I lay on their arm because I'm so little. But I could never have a guy lay on my teeny little Asian girl arm for any length of time, so sleeping in a big spoon position would be impossible.) Though I don't know what you look like, but I cannot imagine anyone asking me to be the big spoon since I'm so teensy. That's just weird. I always assume the big spoon is the bigger person, naturally.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 Okay, this is very tangential, I would find it very odd to be the big spoon for any length of time. (I've certainly given a guy a from-the-back hug, including in bed on occasion.) But mostly because my arms are shorter, and my whole body is teeny compared to any guy I'd date (or most guys in general). So, of course, that feels unnatural, but that seems like more a physicality issue than anything else. And sounds really weird to me. (I've dated guys who say it apparently doesn't hurt when I lay on their arm because I'm so little. But I could never have a guy lay on my teeny little Asian girl arm for any length of time, so sleeping in a big spoon position would be impossible.) Though I don't know what you look like, but I cannot imagine anyone asking me to be the big spoon since I'm so teensy. That's just weird. I always assume the big spoon is the bigger person, naturally. You spoon laying on the other's arm? That's so uncomfortable for me, I can't do it. I didn't realize others spoon like this. I also can't sleep on my back with a guy's arm under me. I hate that. I am constantly having to train guys NOT to do that. I'm very finicky about sleeping positions (like the princess in the princess and the pea), and for the most part can't have anyone touching me when I'm sleeping. Whenever I spoon it's just with his free arm around me, not both arms. Sometimes I like holding a guy from behind (I like the feeling of both depending on mood, although I definitely prefer little spoon), but physically you're right that it rarely works. I also love when a guy I care about surprises me outside with a hug from behind, like in the winter and I sink into his coat. It's just this rush of warmth and feeling protected.
Feelsgoodman Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 I told him that I didn't agree with him, but it's been gnawing at me ever since. I am starting to question my own judgment. He's the only person whose judgment I'd trust over my own on this, but I respect his opinions so much that I assume if he's seeing something off it's probably off. There is no shame in taking advice from someone who is objectively smarter than you are.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 There is no shame in taking advice from someone who is objectively smarter than you are. I don't believe he's objectively smarter, but I do trust his judgment as much as my own.
Memphis Raines Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 I'm honestly kind of disturbed by how much power I give him. so are you wanting to be able to control him?
Author torn_curtain Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 so are you wanting to be able to control him? No? I want an equal partnership.
Mme. Chaucer Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 Anyway, you DO "know how to stop letting" him influence your decisions. As always, it's about boundaries ... and your choices regarding how to deal with boundaries.
Author torn_curtain Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 Anyway, you DO "know how to stop letting" him influence your decisions. As always, it's about boundaries ... and your choices regarding how to deal with boundaries. Yeah, it really has much more to do with me than him. He wasn't trying to control me at all; I was just sort of letting my own judgment take a back seat and giving his opinions too much power. But I feel like I've made a mental switch, especially after that conversation we had.
Star Gazer Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Alphas don't have to be social butterflies as I define them. He is a leader, especially in his professional work. But there are a lot of alphas I've known who only have a few close friends, and some who have no friends (not ones I'd probably date). The latter may be leaders in their professional work but not have any close relationships. Well, I can get a pretty good sense for how he is from video chatting. It's not as if alpha traits only emerge once you really get to know somebody for months/years like some other qualities. They're pretty apparent on the surface. The only person you've observed him interact with and lead is YOU, someone with self-proclaimed boundary issues. Alphas are also people-people. This guy clearly isn't. So you really think this is guy an alpha?? Ummmmmm....
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