Women posters on this site catch alot of hell....

[serial muse]

i wasnt this way as a 30 year old virgin. not even so much as a 40 year old virgin. but i am now. i wish i had lied about it. i thought honesty was the best policy but it led to dumpville. rapists, child molesters, war criminals arent stigmatized like i am when it comes to getting sex. i never said you sleep with everyone you don't hate. dont put words into my mouth. what ive found out is women won't have sex with 47 year old virgins. they wont even have sex with 30 year old virgins. as a man if you don't lose your virginity by a certain age it becomes harder than winning the megamillions lotto. nothing will land me in anyones bed. would you have sex with a 47 year old virgin with a positive outlook and a good attitude? assume you were signgle and close enough to 47. is it hell no or are you the very very rare exception?

 

Well, I wouldn't touch anyone with a 10-foot pole who said stuff like the bolded. sally4sara is absolutely right. You have reached the point of hyperbole and there's no point in having any kind of real discussion about this with you if this is what you think. So, got nothing more to say to you.

 

But I would just like to express my exasperation with the people who claim that there's an equal amount of misandry on these boards. Whatever you may encounter in real life, on these boards there is NOTHING that compares to the constant barrage from posters such as the above. Nothing. Why don't you people at least ACKNOWLEDGE this crap??? It's like the most vocal posters who claim rampant misandry on loveshack just totally IGNORE these kinds of posts. Like you don't even see them. Why is that???

[phineas]

Like this right here; Why should you let anyone take advantage of you? Whats the need for specifying a gender here? If a man takes advantage of you its all cool? I guess even men love jerks yeah?

 

Because usually a guy doesn't expect another guy to buy him drinks. That it seems, is exclusively a woman's domain.

 

Well, since most of my experiences I post about are how women used to or tried to use sex to manipulate, attention whore, lead on, use me ect.

 

I think if a man tried to do those things i'd still post.

It would just be very,very,very confusing posts.

 

This is not the only way or even the worst way for anyone to take advantage of you. Seriously that is small potatoes. Just don't buy drinks if it makes you this uncomfortable. Its hard to lend sympathy over something no one is forcing you to do. If the worst thing you have to complain about is people expecting you to buy them a drink for them - something you don't have to do - consider yourself lucky.

 

I don't consider myself lucky, I consider myself smart enough not to let anyone take advantage of me. However with women some times not letting them take advantage of you means acting rudely.

 

For example, I went out this weekend, I shared a cab with 3 women (1 being my GF and the other 2 her friends). I paid for the entire cab ride. Neither of the 2 friends even offered to split the bill they just got out of the cab as soon as it stopped.

 

I don't mind paying for my GF but what about the other 2 who aren't my friends? How do I not let them take advantage of me without being rude to them? If it was a guy, he would have offered to split the bill or buy me a drink. This happens every weekend, only with women.

 

It isn't just that. A LOT of women try to use their sexuality to take advantage of guys and they succeed.

 

why? cause men want the sex & they think their going to get it because of the way the woman is flirting with them.

 

They get offended when how you relay your experiences is all about demonizing a gender instead of the person who hurt you. I keep telling you poor behavior is just poor behavior. It isn't worse or better depending on the gender of the person behaving poorly. So when you pin it on gender you are pinning it on a lot of people who did nothing to you. You don't like it when women talk about oppressive history and paying men back because you hate the idea of taking the blame for things you didn't do - right?

Yet you cannot see women getting upset over you blaming gender for what you experienced and how you advise other men as being the same thing you don't like happening to you. Why do you think that is?

 

Make friends with them, you can negotiate things like this better with people who are friends. How this works is usually an understanding I have with some of my friends:

If I need to get from point A to point C and it costs $X, and my friend needs to get from point A to point B (a point between A & C) then I don't expect them to pay anything. Whether they hoped in with me or not I will still have to pay $X to get to point C. I'm not going to waste the mental energy it take to work myself up to a point where I believe I was taken advantage of by them when it cost me not a bit extra over what I'd pay without dropping them at point B.

 

Firstly, these women aren't my friends, they are acquaintances, I might see once in a couple of months. I have no desire to befriend these flaky women.

 

Secondly that may work for you but, I can guarantee that the vast majority of 20 and 30 something women don't work that way. They expect the guy to pay. They never even offer to split the bill. I am sick of it.

 

Tell me what am I supposed to do? Guys never pull this kind of stuff. Guys will always offer to pay or at worst buy me a drink once we get inside the bar.

 

The only way I can prevent this is to be rude and ask them to pay up.

 

I hate when women take advantage of guys this way. That is why I was happy phineas doesn't allow himself to be used in the same way.

 

Then perhaps you don't know them well enough to write them off.

 

 

 

 

 

When the cashier asks you to pay for your groceries, are they being rude?

 

 

 

If a guy was doing this (and yes I have had guy friends needing to get to point B who did not pay or offer) would it make you AS mad and would you feel AS taken advantage of? If you witnessed a guy getting "taken advantage of" in this way, would you oooooh just hate it?

 

Like I said, I have no desire to befriend them. I shouldn't have to befriend them for them to act like human beings and pay their share.

 

 

 

No but, then I am expecting to pull my wallet out and pay the cashier for my groceries. Like said before these women don't expect to pay for the cab ride.

 

 

 

I can't remember the last time I had this type of problem with a guy friend or acquaintance. Yet it seems to happen almost every weekend with women. If this sort of thing repeatedly happened with guys yes I would be just as mad. However, like I said before this type of behavior seems to be exclusively the domain of women.

 

So every weekend you hang out with women you know well but don't like, don't want to get to know well enough to know if you might like them? In fact, you don't want to like them even if it might solve your complaint?

 

Do as you want but it sounds like a whole lot of working hard rather than smart just to end up pissed and seeking a sympathetic anonymous male ear to vent it to.

 

I don't know these women, I am not friends with them, I have no desire to befriend them. I don't see the same ones over and over, I see different women because I hang out in different circles. I see the same women maybe once every 2-3 months.

 

This doesn't happen every weekend (I don't go out every weekend) however, it does happen frequently enough to where it really really bothers me that women take advantage of guys this way. It just doesn't happen to me, it happens to my other male friends as well.

 

I didn't post in this thread seeking a sympathetic anonymous male ear.

 

If you read my post, I was simply praising phineas for not buying drinks for women and not letting women take advantage of him.

 

Then when you commented on my post, I simply defended my position. I was not seeking any sympathy from anybody.

 

I'm sorry. I must have gotten confused when you said women on here think you're making things up when you post a thread about your personal experiences with women. That implied to me that you do make posts about hard things you're going through. I guess I assumed because I don't usually see people complain about things that don't happen to them.

 

I am a native English speaker but, that sentence makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

Anyway, I am not looking for sympathy from anybody, just praising a fellow poster for not letting take advantage of him.

 

Quote where I said the bolded above. I'm not even sure what you're accusing me of to be honest.

 

And most people on here know me as being someone who believes everyone should pay for their own expenses no matter what their gender.

 

Go ahead and scour my every post if you'd like; we shouldn't hear from you for a few days - after you give up.

 

There it is.

Your history between me, you & PTP in this thread.

 

Notice how you tried taking many avenues to avoid saying these women were trying to take advantage of us because they were women.

 

 

Notice how you ignored me after I pointed out women use sexuality to take advantage of men.

 

Women do this on a constant basis, use sexuality & the fact they are women to take advantage of men. Are you still going to deny this?

[soserious1]

The forums are a funny place, if a divorced man decides to never marry again and to limit his post divorce relationships to strictly casual affairs, he's applauded for being "smart" and women are warned that soon there won't be any men to marry if we don't change our ways. Yet if a divorced woman posts the same thing then she's clearly "bitter"

[phineas]

The forums are a funny place, if a divorced man decides to never marry again and to limit his post divorce relationships to strictly casual affairs, he's applauded for being "smart" and women are warned that soon there won't be any men to marry if we don't change our ways. Yet if a divorced woman posts the same thing then she's clearly "bitter"

 

 

Which forum are you reading? LOL!

 

I must have a filter or something because I don't remember reading any of that reguardless of which sex is divorced looking to hook up.

[serial muse]

and you wouldn't touch any 47 year old virgin with a ten foot pole. i've asked it and women avoid the question and change the subject. they're too cowardly to be honest and state they hate 47 year old virgins.

 

bullshxt.

 

Yes, I would, as a matter of fact.

 

But I sure as hell wouldn't touch YOU. Because you say shxt like the above. The fact is, you hate you, and that trumps whatever anyone else might bother to say. Way to deflect from your own nastiness. End.

[Emilia]

and you wouldn't touch any 47 year old virgin with a ten foot pole. i've asked it and women avoid the question and change the subject. they're too cowardly to be honest and state they hate 47 year old virgins.

 

I think they wonder why you are a virgin at the age of 47

[serial muse]

Which forum are you reading? LOL!

 

I must have a filter or something because I don't remember reading any of that reguardless of which sex is divorced looking to hook up.

 

phineas, I just read that post you made and I really am not understanding what you're accusing sally4sara of, exactly. She posted a bunch of rational stuff about how you don't have to buy women drinks if you don't want to, and it's not necessary to say nasty stuff about how all/most (whatever) women think you should.

 

What's the problem there, exactly? Isn't that GOOD news?

 

I just think it's weird that the very people with the attitudes that men say they want are the ones that get reamed on here - i.e., the feminists who really do believe in equality, including paying for yourself. It's like there's this knee-jerk need to take down all women, even the ones on your side.

[iJester]

VGN47, I don't think it's hate, moreso indifference.

 

Sally4sara, I haven't really made note of your posts on here so I'm not sure of your tendencies and you do seem pretty levelheaded, but in this thread you did prove phineas' point. He brought up a case, which by and large is true(taxi example), and instead of acknowledging that he had a point(even if just in that instance), you put the blame on him, and basically told him to not go out with his girlfriend or make friends with her friends so they will feel more obligated to pay their own way(???).

 

 

Phineas, I understand your distaste for the situation, but I just use it to my advantage. Rather than being bitter and upset, I just see all women as whores until they individually prove otherwise. Makes it a lot easier to justify treating them like, well, whores. Women that expect me to pay for everything, get punished mercilessly in the bedroom. Gag them when they give you head, don't listen to the word stop, make them scream in pain, make them bleed, make them feel used, make them sorry, make them feel like the whores they are.

[dreamingoftigers]

Notice how you tried taking many avenues to avoid saying these women were trying to take advantage of us because they were women.

Notice how you ignored me after I pointed out women use sexuality to take advantage of men.

Women do this on a constant basis, use sexuality & the fact they are women to take advantage of men. Are you still going to deny this?

 

I agree with you that women use sexuality, flirting etc. to get free stuff. As well women often have the expectation that a man will pay. What you may not see however is that they are probably not sitting back thinking, "oh sweet, this sucker is going to cover it all off. Ha ha what a naive loser."

 

Some do. In general the type that do IMHO tend to be pretty easily amused by most things and seek out ways to be selfish and take advantage of people overall. That isn't limited to a gender.

 

How the social norm works that is still present to this day regardless of equality etc. Is that we are given the impression that men would often LIKE to pay.Of course this is not Universal, BUT we have (most of us still) been raised with this notion. Most women I know have no trouble paying (myself included).

 

As for drinks at the bar, the idea is that a guy would let a woman know that he finds her attractive, take the risk of a small investment of getting to know her. She can receive a small gift, therefore opening to the idea that he might not be such a bad dude (historically a man would get a little something for a woman or in some cultures her family, the bar just boils that down into quick exchanges.) It is supposed to be a small risk thing for both parties. Today it has lead to higher expectations (and lowered ones to be honest.

 

But one thing that has not caught up is that we are often still given the impression that the guy will pay. It is historically what he has done and the vast majority of men say nothing about it. If men were to lay down that line tomorrow, the day after we would pay for our own drinks. Although, there would be less women going out for drinks, especially with the purpose of meeting men.

 

The gender haters are equal. The only difference is the man are more blatant. A misogynist is usually not afraid to tell you he hates women but misandry is a very subtle thing. There are women who swear they don't hate men but if you dig deeper you can see they at least don't like us very much.

 

When I hear this, I see that I am susceptible to talking about frustrations via gender instead of boiling it down to individuals. Not fair, not good. There is also a big gap between not liking a group very much and outwardly accusing a group of having ' xyz character problem because they are selfish, clearly.'

 

It is also sensible to realize that under stress most people identify with certain people and exclude others, often. Not good, not great, certainly not helpful: but somewhat understandable and very, very common.

 

Truth be told when taken as one big group all around the world my impression of men is this: they have some more testosterone then me (hopefully). Other then that, consciously I acknowledge that there is quite a spectrum.

 

Most of us have at times, a great deal of difficulty figuring out what the heck the other gender might have been thinking because a lot of their mental and emotional processes differ just enough to confuse the Hell out of us. When we assign the same behaviors to people of our own gender, they often become negative. Men who cry, women who tend to be more promiscuous etc.

 

As well many of us have more frustrating experiences with members of the opposite gender because that is who most of us here on loveshack pursue or want to be pursued by.

 

This thread has actually helped me to understand the frustrated guys a little more. They had a different set of expectations and now that "gender group" is completely different then what they were lead to believe, now they are pissed. Makes sense. Could be handled better but it makes sense. So they try forming a new universal belief. It may be a matter of time until it is realized that having a universal belief about the opposite gender was the problem to begin with.

 

This is actually a huge deal. The first girl that really screws you over just hits you from out of left field. I was fairly well conditioned to protect women... and that's how I see myself. To have that turned against you is hard to get over. It creates it's own kind of PTSD.

 

I've been through the "yes dear" phase. At this point my automatic default response is NO... and everyone around me including the women I've been with are much happier for it.

 

I totally understand this. As a younger girl I had enough sense to watch out for the really obvious predator types but no other education whatsoever. Those that use and those that cheat completely hit me from left field. I thought as long as I avoided active alcoholics snd addicts that for the most part people were okay to each other. To send someone completely naive and unprepared for adulthood into the world only ensured a very tough learning curve. To be honest my mother still hasn't a clue about men and she's been married for 36 years. My father is so checked-out though that his behaviour is in almost no way normal. (I thought only the really obvious predator type would be the

cheaters).

 

Of course women do exactly the same thing. They say they want a relationship but then consider the "relationship guys" to be secondary sex options to those good looking enough for ONSs and FWBs. I don't think I will ever unravel that paradox . . .

 

I cannot identify with this.

 

I don't think what Gloria Steinem and others were fighting for is being put into action. imo, whats going on today in our society is the opposite of what those forward thinking women would have wanted to happen in 50 years.

 

Why shouldn't we embrace our differences and stop trying to force squares into circle holes? I don't want to watch Kardashians, and shouldn't have to just because my GF does.

 

I agree fully and completely. The "I get what I want because I am a woman and if I don't get it I get pissed" mentality is exactly what we accused men of doing and being for a long time. It seems that when good concepts go from the "top of the heap" and trickle down to the wider base of ignorant people that the ideas get tainted along the way.

 

Take for instance self-esteem. The movement in itself encourages people to realize that they are able to be capable and are worthwhile overall as people even if they are not the "prettiest" "strongest" etc. The idea was: accept yourself and you can build good things in your life. You are okay. You have control over what you do with your behaviour. You can make a good life and achieve things if you believe in yourself.

 

That has been translated for many into: "I am super-wonderful the way I am, I can act how I want and never have to change anything. Appreciate me (often with your wallet). If you have anything to say about my behaviour, then you are clearly attacking my self-esteem."

 

Sigh

 

It applies on here as well. There are some women who swear they don't hate men but let us have a heated debate and the misandry starts creeping out.

 

I don't HATE men. BUT sometimes I find behaviour that is often ascribed as male behaviour frustrating. Generally though, it is much more positive to say: X behaviour is frustrating.

 

the site is chock full of man hating ladies. i'm a 47 year old virgin and theres nothing your gender hates more.

 

If I was single (and searching for an FWB or ONS) the very fact that you are a 47 year old virgin would be the factor that would make you not a 47 year old virgin with me. If I were looking for a relationship, it would be a neutral factor and I would assess other parts of your character. It may sound cold, but relationship happen between the wrong people for the wrong reasons all the time.

[dreamingoftigers]

First of all,

 

Get assessed pronto by a CSAT or ATSA. you are showing strong signs of having a very serious issue. Very serious.

 

VGN47, I don't think it's hate, moreso indifference.

 

Sally4sara, I haven't really made note of your posts on here so I'm not sure of your tendencies and you do seem pretty levelheaded, but in this thread you did prove phineas' point. He brought up a case, which by and large is true(taxi example), and instead of acknowledging that he had a point(even if just in that instance), you put the blame on him, and basically told him to not go out with his girlfriend or make friends with her friends so they will feel more obligated to pay their own way(???).

 

Phineas, I understand your distaste for the situation, but I just use it to my advantage. Rather than being bitter and upset, I just see all women as whores until they individually prove otherwise. Makes it a lot easier to justify treating them like, well, whores. Women that expect me to pay for everything, get punished mercilessly in the bedroom. Gag them when they give you head, don't listen to the word stop, make them scream in pain, make them bleed, make them feel used, make them sorry, make them feel like the whores they are.

 

Um, beyond the legal implications of this, have you considered looking into studies that revolve around empathy and sociopathy?

 

$10 on a cab ride and $50 on dinner, even without the legal, moral and just plain respecting another human and not being violent violator context is not an even exchange whatsoever. No one should bleed for a pathetic night on the town.

Edited August 23, 2011 by dreamingoftigers

[dreamingoftigers]

By the way, in case anyone is still paying attention, iJester's comments are a great example of the thread topic.

 

Is there anyone here who does not find that disturbing?

[sally4sara]

VGN47, I don't think it's hate, moreso indifference.

 

Sally4sara, I haven't really made note of your posts on here so I'm not sure of your tendencies and you do seem pretty levelheaded, but in this thread you did prove phineas' point. He brought up a case, which by and large is true(taxi example), and instead of acknowledging that he had a point(even if just in that instance), you put the blame on him, and basically told him to not go out with his girlfriend or make friends with her friends so they will feel more obligated to pay their own way(???).

 

 

Phineas, I understand your distaste for the situation, but I just use it to my advantage. Rather than being bitter and upset, I just see all women as whores until they individually prove otherwise. Makes it a lot easier to justify treating them like, well, whores. Women that expect me to pay for everything, get punished mercilessly in the bedroom. Gag them when they give you head, don't listen to the word stop, make them scream in pain, make them bleed, make them feel used, make them sorry, make them feel like the whores they are.

 

I did not. I suggested he become friendlier with them because if were, he might feel more at ease talking to them about their behavior. He didn't see the need. He doesn't want his issue resolved because then he wouldn't be able to complain about them anymore. I never defended their behavior; only said it has happened to me and I am not as bothered by it. Believe me, if I had a problem with someone enough to bitch about them I would resolve it rather than eat it and complain to others. But then I have guts and not everyone does.

[soserious1]

I don't expect men to pay for ANYTHING, I pay for dinner & drinks, I pay for the hotel room & give the man taxi fare afterwards if he needs it. All I request in return is sex, hot, hard, I want to leave that room feeling well used, personally I enjoy being a "whore" it's a LOT more satisfying than being a supportive, loving, faithful wife ever was, all that said, I certainly don't think I or any person should be left beaten and bleeding for ANY reason.

[soserious1]

By the way, in case anyone is still paying attention, iJester's comments are a great example of the thread topic.

 

Is there anyone here who does not find that disturbing?

 

I'm thinking his comments reflect great anger & the frustrations of a person who hasn't figured out how to quickly eliminate gold diggers from his address book. There are ways to politely make it clear that you fully expect to go dutch on dates.

[dasein]

There's nothing funnier than talking to a woman in a plain, polite, matter of fact tone of voice and if she doesn't like what you are saying to her, either "Stop shouting at meeeee!" or "That is so disrespectful!" Both lies that she absolutely believes to be true. She really perceives that you are shouting or disrespecting her when you are merely disagreeing. No... grasp... of... inconvenient... reality.

 

Guys? Show of hands? Frequency? at least 100 times (including paraphrases) for me over the last 20 years or so among 10+ women, would that be enough to form a "generalization" about flawed perceptions of reality when the issue of "gender bashing" comes up? ROFL.

 

/thread

[soserious1]

I don't consider myself lucky, I consider myself smart enough not to let anyone take advantage of me. However with women some times not letting them take advantage of you means acting rudely.

 

For example, I went out this weekend, I shared a cab with 3 women (1 being my GF and the other 2 her friends). I paid for the entire cab ride. Neither of the 2 friends even offered to split the bill they just got out of the cab as soon as it stopped.

 

I don't mind paying for my GF but what about the other 2 who aren't my friends? How do I not let them take advantage of me without being rude to them? If it was a guy, he would have offered to split the bill or buy me a drink. This happens every weekend, only with women.

 

These were your GF's friends? then a convo with her is in order, it needs to go something like this "GF, I love you dearly but it upset me when your friends just assumed I'd pay for their taxi ride, when we go out as a group,please make it clear to them that everybody will be splitting the bill for group activities, if I'm feeling flush and want to treat everybody I'd say so"

[Ginger Beer]

Example # 1.

 

There was nothing wrong with that post though.

 

putting sexy pics on facebook is not a NEED. it's a WANT, and an incredibly stupid and selfish one at that.

 

Correct.

 

Not the women.

As a man I relay my own personal experiences & apparently women think I make it up or i'm "bitter".

 

I work in two separate buildings at my job with literally hundreds of women.

Been doing it for 10+ yrs.

 

I see & hear what goes on in their personal lives & how they interact with their male co-workers.

 

They want to be treated equally yet still expect men to pay for the dates.

They can't to brag about how they got some guy to spend money on them over the weekend. (these are the younger ones)

 

Ever happy hour after work the majority of women who work the same jobs as their male co-workers and make the same pay seem to think the men should buy them drinks. And the dumb-asses do it.

 

Blows my mind.

 

These women unfortunately are in the majority in my experience.

 

I honestly don't know what the issue is however lots of young female co-workers these days seem to think It's my job to buy their drinks at happy hour because they got a vagina. (here come the bitter remarks. LOL!) I've had women that barely talk to me at work literally hound me to buy them shot at happy hour. WTF?!?

 

This makes me so angry.

 

I don't consider myself lucky, I consider myself smart enough not to let anyone take advantage of me. However with women some times not letting them take advantage of you means acting rudely.

 

For example, I went out this weekend, I shared a cab with 3 women (1 being my GF and the other 2 her friends). I paid for the entire cab ride. Neither of the 2 friends even offered to split the bill they just got out of the cab as soon as it stopped.

 

I don't mind paying for my GF but what about the other 2 who aren't my friends? How do I not let them take advantage of me without being rude to them? If it was a guy, he would have offered to split the bill or buy me a drink. This happens every weekend, only with women.

 

Fact.

 

It isn't just that. A LOT of women try to use their sexuality to take advantage of guys and they succeed.

 

Fact.

 

I never advocated men making women pay for other's sins but men need to be careful these days. There are good women but the wrong one can ruin your life.

 

Also women are just as bad on this forum when it comes to hating men so how come nobody calls them out?

 

Agree.

 

I also go in the cheating sub-forum and women cheaters outnumber the men greatly in there.

[sm1tten]

I don't know who is worse here, men or women. I just see some truly effed up people in general, and some less effed up, and a few okay/sos-so/alright/good.

 

One thing I see all over is a failure to assert oneself and an excessive need to complain about how the world isn't fair.

[giuliano-3]

One thing I see all over is a failure to assert oneself and an excessive need to complain about how the world isn't fair.

 

Too much assertion can mess a guy up also. A friend of a girl I like told me I should ask her out. Going through alot right now, took a couple weeks to finally realize I should ask her out. Got a hem-haw response, despite the obvious mutual physical attraction and healthy flirting always going on. Asked again, another forearm shimmy - she finally texted me that she didn't have time for a relationship right now. Cool. No prob. I can respect that.

 

What I'm having a hard time respecting is the way girls have these 3-day conferences where they discuss every pro/con about the potential new guy. If I show too much assertion, I'm desperate/clingy (which I'm really not). During this conference one of her friends asked me if I had a girlfriend. Really? You know me pretty well, you know I want to date your friend and yet you ask me if I have a girlfriend then treat it as being weird that I don't???

 

I just feel a huge disconnect with our (USA) society right now. Silly games, dissecting every potential future outcome, trying to test the guy and see if he's for real. Why would a girl take the advice of a friend who's a serial dating single mom? I don't get it. So yes, I'm bitter about it I guess. I should own that and try to move on (or out of the country).

[serial muse]

That is complete BS.

 

The way the situation should be resolved is those women should be fair and pay up. I didn't state than example looking for sympathy, I brought up that example to show how I feel women take unfair advantage of men.

 

 

 

If you aren't defending their behavior then I am right...end of conversation.

 

My whole point was, these women use men and feel they can get away with it just based on the fact that they are women.

 

Either you defend their behavior or you agree with me that they use men.

 

The part I object to is the part where you said it is exclusively the domain of women to use people in this way.

 

That has not been my personal experience; plenty of times I've put up with guys sponging off me and expecting me to pay. Happened on first dates, happened on cab rides, whatever.

 

Do I think it's right when women do it? No, absolutely not. But do I think that means it's reasonable to say that it's JUST women who do it? Nope. And do I think it's reasonable to go off on women HERE ON LS about it? No, absolutely not. Because there are demonstrably ALREADY a number of women HERE who agree that it's not OK to sponge off people. So, you're preaching to the choir.

 

The people you SHOULD be complaining to are the ones who DO IT - i.e., your girlfriend and her friends. THEY are the offenders.

 

I honestly think that's what sally4sara was trying to say. And, seriously, it's a reasonable point - if they're the ones who did something crappy, shouldn't they be held accountable? Why talk smack about women in the abstract when it's these specific women who did something crappy? Why get upset at women here who basically agree with you that that's a crappy way to behave - and, in fact, are only disagreeing that ALL (or "MOST") women behave that way?

 

It's not about agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, in the sense that what happened to you happened to you. But it's the INEVITABILITY of it all, the sense that women in general are spongers, that's up for dispute. I see no reason why I should be forced to agree with statements like that, in order to maintain a civil conversation. Once statements like that are made, civil conversation is out the window. So those statements - that's what needs to go first, if we're ever going to find common ground.

 

It's just so EXTREMELY irritating to come on here and state a viewpoint, and then in the next thread see that a bunch of guys are laying on AGAIN about how NO WOMEN have that viewpoint.

 

TIRESOME.

Edited August 23, 2011 by serial muse

[John Michael Kane]

That is complete BS.

 

The way the situation should be resolved is those women should be fair and pay up. I didn't state than example looking for sympathy, I brought up that example to show how I feel women take unfair advantage of men.

 

 

 

If you aren't defending their behavior then I am right...end of conversation.

 

My whole point was, these women use men and feel they can get away with it just based on the fact that they are women.

 

Either you defend their behavior or you agree with me that they use men.

 

I agree. Women want to use a man to no end but shriek and whine and uselessly call him a "bitter man" when he says no for once.

[phineas]

phineas, I just read that post you made and I really am not understanding what you're accusing sally4sara of, exactly. She posted a bunch of rational stuff about how you don't have to buy women drinks if you don't want to, and it's not necessary to say nasty stuff about how all/most (whatever) women think you should.

 

What's the problem there, exactly? Isn't that GOOD news?

 

I just think it's weird that the very people with the attitudes that men say they want are the ones that get reamed on here - i.e., the feminists who really do believe in equality, including paying for yourself. It's like there's this knee-jerk need to take down all women, even the ones on your side.

 

It's quite simple really, both PTP & I were relaying our personal experiances of how women on the whole seem to expect us as men to pay for them.

 

It's happened to my friends quite often also.

Yet saly4sara tells us "you wouldn't be complaining if men did it to you"

 

well my response was i've never had men flirt with me & pretend to be sexually interested in me to get me to do them favors.

 

and she stopped responding.

 

PTP told her numerous times women expect him to pay, different women on multiple occasions & his friend experienced the same.

And she still keeps trying to explain it away as anything other than a woman expecting a man to pay.

 

Are you also going to say women don't use sexuality as a way to get what they want from men also?

[phineas]

I agree with you that women use sexuality, flirting etc. to get free stuff. As well women often have the expectation that a man will pay. What you may not see however is that they are probably not sitting back thinking, "oh sweet, this sucker is going to cover it all off. Ha ha what a naive loser."

 

Some do. In general the type that do IMHO tend to be pretty easily amused by most things and seek out ways to be selfish and take advantage of people overall. That isn't limited to a gender.

 

How the social norm works that is still present to this day regardless of equality etc. Is that we are given the impression that men would often LIKE to pay.Of course this is not Universal, BUT we have (most of us still) been raised with this notion. Most women I know have no trouble paying (myself included).

 

As for drinks at the bar, the idea is that a guy would let a woman know that he finds her attractive, take the risk of a small investment of getting to know her. She can receive a small gift, therefore opening to the idea that he might not be such a bad dude (historically a man would get a little something for a woman or in some cultures her family, the bar just boils that down into quick exchanges.) It is supposed to be a small risk thing for both parties. Today it has lead to higher expectations (and lowered ones to be honest.

 

But one thing that has not caught up is that we are often still given the impression that the guy will pay. It is historically what he has done and the vast majority of men say nothing about it. If men were to lay down that line tomorrow, the day after we would pay for our own drinks. Although, there would be less women going out for drinks, especially with the purpose of meeting men.

 

 

People of both genders take advantage of others.

however women use sexuality a hell of a lot more to get what they want from men.

It's part of the media. Movies, TV, ect.

 

I can really care less about a woman trying to milk me for a drink. It's the principle & her expectation that I should when I don't even know her or she isn't even dating me.

 

Either a woman wants to talk to me or not. If she needs me to buy her a drink in order to do that, it really doesn't speak to highly of her. She's got a job right? what happened to equality of the sexes?

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

Both my buddies & I have experienced this quite a bit. women that lead us on in order to get something other than dating from us. Money, dinner, work on their house, fix their car, random favors ect.

 

It happens a heck of a lot more than you think or want to admit.

In fact both my mom & dad warned me growing up to watch out for such women.

 

I don't fall for it but it's comical & if you call woman out on doing it, your labeled a creep or "bitter" LOL!

[dreamingoftigers]

People of both genders take advantage of others.

however women use sexuality a hell of a lot more to get what they want from men.

It's part of the media. Movies, TV, ect.

 

I can really care less about a woman trying to milk me for a drink. It's the principle & her expectation that I should when I don't even know her or she isn't even dating me.

 

Either a woman wants to talk to me or not. If she needs me to buy her a drink in order to do that, it really doesn't speak to highly of her. She's got a job right? what happened to equality of the sexes?

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

Both my buddies & I have experienced this quite a bit. women that lead us on in order to get something other than dating from us. Money, dinner, work on their house, fix their car, random favors ect.

 

It happens a heck of a lot more than you think or want to admit.

In fact both my mom & dad warned me growing up to watch out for such women.

 

I don't fall for it but it's comical & if you call woman out on doing it, your labeled a creep or "bitter" LOL!

 

I didn't say it was wonderful, I just explained where the attitude came from.

 

It also doesn't mean that I personally ascribe to it.

[sally4sara]

That is complete BS.

 

It is not. I told him when my friends tag along on MY taxi ride I don't care because whether they tag along or not it costs me the same. They might think of it the same way. He doesn't and thats fine. IF they don't live in a city where the taxis tack on MORE for number of passengers, it doesn't cost anymore than he'd be paying without them along so they may need his displeasure pointed out. Since he keeps hanging out with these non friends he should tell them anyway, they are not mind readers and telling them will definitely resolve the issue faster.

I've never had anyone ask me anything other than if it is alright to jump in - never making an offer to pay be they male or female. What he is complaining about is, IME, common making him the outlier to me and people I know. I just figure if he knew them better he might feel more comfortable expressing his displeasure with their behavior. Aren't you guys suppose to be more about fixing problems rather than how it makes you feel?

 

Did he thank me for this advise? NO. He was all (basically) "they're not my friends I don't want to make friends I hang out with them and it would make it more fun if they were friends since I keep hanging out with them anyway but blah blah I don't want this issue to get better by making friends". What? You're just going to keep taking taxis with these same two, getting steamed every time but do nothing to solve it? This is what I don't get. How does he expect anything to change if he won't even speak for himself? No, he wants ME to condemn them like I got something to do with it - HA! And what does he care if two girls he doesn't like think he is rude? He isn't trying to date one of them right? He doesn't need their acceptance; he has a GF and says he wants nothing to do with them.

AND THEN!

Then he wants to talk about women using their sexuality? Why would their sexuality even factor in? Is he trying to have sex with one or both of them?

 

I'd have this problem licked by now if I were him. Is this why the PH & p squad are on my ass for my post? They want to learn my Weirding Way and this bitchfest is how they show me their love? Aww boys boys .

 

Listen to them:

 

The way the situation should be resolved is those women should be fair and pay up. I didn't state than example looking for sympathy, I brought up that example to show how I feel women take unfair advantage of men.

 

If you aren't defending their behavior then I am right...end of conversation.

 

My whole point was, these women use men and feel they can get away with it just based on the fact that they are women.

Either you defend their behavior or you agree with me that they use men.

 

Oooh he told me didn't he? I like how its all ended with a ultimatum. Makes you wonder how a guy so commanding hasn't resolved this issue by now doesn't it?

Edited August 23, 2011 by sally4sara