My WH wants me back now...

[John Michael Kane]

I am a few months ahead of OP, have attempted reconciliation, and feel that it has been successful. I have seen the fog lift.

 

No fog was ever there, and nothing gets better in just under a month.

 

OP may find that valuable. I don't know where your expert advice comes from. You certainly didn't back it up.

 

I don't have to, you can read all about it on the internet.

 

Also, I never said my W continued cheating. Curious tangent there. And you take another discussing whether I made her stop. Don't think I made a claim there.

 

Please okay? It's in your story.

 

Not that I was talking to you anyway. My comments were for SU. I found reconciliation to be a very rewarding choice. She deserves to know that this perspective exists, just as you are welcome to present another.

 

You were "talking" to me. You replied when I wasn't even "talking" to you.

[John Michael Kane]

I have read that stat too. Interesting.

 

In reference to the fog, I have a hard time believing that people who cheat are often in entirely, resolute control of their faculties. It seems like so many of them trainwreck their entire lives in ways that are not reflective of someone in control of their sense and situation.

 

So because it surprises you that someone could be so evil, they're controlled by something else, right? They're being controlled by some invisible, natural mist.

[John Michael Kane]

JMK never met a fact he couldn't make up.

 

I don't make up anything, I just haven't seen any facts here.

[Kidd]

Right. "No, it's not." and "Ridiculous" are very compelling arguments.

 

Clearly the fog is not an invisible mist. Now who is being ridiculous?

 

We simply understand the complexity of the human mind and that defense and coping mechanisms exist. In this case, it's a version of denial about how heinous and stupid their acts are. Once removed from the middle of the drama, a more realistic perspective sets in and remorse can set in.

[John Michael Kane]

Right. "No, it's not." and "Ridiculous" are very compelling arguments.

 

And stating a fog took over your wife and that you're completely fine after barely a month is better?

 

Clearly the fog is not an invisible mist. Now who is being ridiculous?

 

Depends on which fog you're referring to. If it's the one you and countless others in denial have made up then yes, it's ridiculous and entirely unrealistic because nobody or nothing makes a cheater cheats except the cheater.

 

We simply understand the complexity of the human mind and that defense and coping mechanisms exist.

 

Which proves why I and others state that BSs here are in denial.

 

In this case, it's a version of denial about how heinous and stupid their acts are. Once removed from the middle of the drama, a more realistic perspective sets in and remorse can set in.

 

Cheaters are not in denial.

[dreamingoftigers]

So because it surprises you that someone could be so evil, they're controlled by something else, right? They're being controlled by some invisible, natural mist.

 

Nope, their judgment could very well be off. Considering 20% of us will suffer from mental illness in our lifetimes, blatant cheating with little sensible regard could easily be a missed symptom of one, for example.

 

Certain patterns of cheating do correlate with certain types of mental illness.

 

"fog" is a metaphor. It is not suggestive of possession in my interpretation.

[John Michael Kane]

Nope, their judgment could very well be off. Considering 20% of us will suffer from mental illness in our lifetimes, blatant cheating with little sensible regard could easily be a missed symptom of one, for example.

 

It's not a "missed symptom" like it's some disease.

 

Certain patterns of cheating do correlate with certain types of mental illness.

 

No they don't.

 

"fog" is a metaphor. It is not suggestive of possession in my interpretation.

 

Ah but see there is no fog period.

[dreamingoftigers]

It's not a "missed symptom" like it's some disease.

 

No they don't.

 

Ah but see there is no fog period.

 

A) No, the cheating could be a "missed symptom" of a mental illness.

B) Please review and research.

C) what would you prefer to call it when someone acts completely against their own self-interest and in completely irrational ways that can take down themselves and everyone around them while thinking and feeling that they are justified?

 

Fog is an easy term for it.

[LifesontheUp]

what would you prefer to call it when someone acts completely against their own self-interest and in completely irrational ways that can take down themselves and everyone around them while thinking and feeling that they are justified?

 

But does the one doing it think it's against their own self-interest? I would think not as they are more than likely enjoying it, getting their fix so to speak. Think the better term in my eyes is totally selfish behaviour, behaviour without conscience.

 

SU - I think you should tell the OW husband. With regards to your own, then everything should be on your terms now. Take your time, decide what you want and if thats breathing space then he'll have to accept it. After all, you had to accept him going to live OW right?

[Owl]

SU, I'd also recommend you make your own determinations on the concept of 'fog' and how it does or doesn't pertain to your own situation.

 

The "argument" here over whether or not "fog" is a factor is being generated by someone who doesn't believe in reconciliation, and insists that the only viable resolution to infidelity is to "throw the bum out".

 

He's not attempted reconciliation, wouldn't know it if it bit him, and therefore refuses to consider factors that do come into play when someone attempts reconciliation.

 

Read "Surviving an Affair". It'll give you some insights and information you can use to make your own determinations, and help you sort out what next steps YOU want to take.

 

If you choose reconciliation...Kidd is started down that path, and I've done so in my own marriage. There are people here who can help you try to work through that...if you choose so.

 

If you choose divorce...which is clearly also a viable option...there are many here who have been through that and can provide equally good support down that path as well.

 

Take your time, learn what you can, choose your path...and we'll be here to support you however you opt to go.

[Severely Unamused]

We will be filing for divorce soon (my choice, not his). Long story. I might expand on this post later when I'm feeling less tired.

 

The entire process usually takes around a year where I live, but since I'm giving my husband pretty much everything (again, my choice not his) I should be able to cut it down to around six to eight months, provided the paper work comes in smoothly.

 

I've put a lot of thought into this. I don't second-guess.

 

I'm really not interested in the intricacies of the "affair fog" btw.

[fooled once]

A WS who is truly remorseful, takes 100% responsibility for the A, and who WANTS to reconcile the M is willing to do what it takes to make that happen. Must add...so long as those requests are reasonable and you're not asking him to cut his arm (or other appendages) off. You're not. Your request for space is reasonable and logical.

 

Your H throwing hissy fits and causing scenes just tells me that he's more into instant gratification. That makes sense with the A too. He's not willing to really face the music. He just wants things back where they were. He screwed up big time and can't deal with it responsibly.

 

That should give you a clue, that at least right now, true reconciliation is not possible. He needs to be able to acknowledge what he did, take responsibility for it and be willing to work through it with you.

 

You should check the laws in your area to see what you can do about your space. In some areas, because you are married, he would have rights to live in the marital home, regardless of a prior separation. Check with your local DA's office, or court clerk. They're the quickest (and free) resources to get you started. You want to be one step ahead, so if that's the case in your area and he learns of it and forces it, have a plan as to where you'll go/what you'll do.

 

I think if it were me, I would have an attorney write him a cease and desist letter. The mere fact that you've talked to an attorney should scare him enough to behave. He doesn't sound like he wants a D, so without having to threaten him with it, attorney contact should be persuasive.

 

 

I agree.

 

What a situation SU. Best of luck. Remember to take care of yourself too, okay?

[Severely Unamused]

I agree.

 

What a situation SU. Best of luck. Remember to take care of yourself too, okay?

 

Thanks fooled. Still tired as hell, but I'm feeling slightly better now.

 

Getting phone calls at three in the morning is a pain in the ass though.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Severely Unamused
Sleep deprivation.

[Severely Unamused]

Sorting through the comments...

 

Perusing "After the Affair" may be a good idea to help you decide a little more fully about staying or leaving.

Alright. Can you recommend any other books guys? I was looking through Amazon earlier...a lot of these kind of books don't seem so great. IMO anyway.

 

5. If you do decide to reconcile, I strongly recommend going through marital counseling and building up the marriage again very slowly. In my personal experience the grief takes about 2 years to get through.

We will both be going to MC. Although it isn't for reconciliation purposes. A neutral environment to air out our thoughts doesn't seem like a bad idea, right?

 

Is he depressed? has he been diagnosed? That would be a first step.

I managed to talk him into seeing a psychiatrist a few days ago (I will be footing the bill of course), so I guess that we will find out. Curious that he suddenly changed his tune after procrastinating for so long. Weird huh?

 

SU - I think you should tell the OW husband.

I believe that I will when I get the chance. He's in another continent right now so this probably isn't the best time.

 

Actually, from what I gather, he's a bit of a neighbourhood celebrity. Nice guy according to the neighbours. And his own wife.

 

Read "Surviving an Affair". It'll give you some insights and information you can use to make your own determinations, and help you sort out what next steps YOU want to take.

Any other reading material you recommend Owl?

[Owl]

SU, most of the stuff I've read is more geared towards reconciliation or prevention of infidelity, so most of it probably wouldn't be a relevent to aid you during a divorce. Don't take me wrong, I'd be glad to suggest some decent books to read that can help you improve a marriage...just don't know that I have much in the way of resources to suggest that can help you while you're working through divorce.

 

From my perspective (and remember...I've not been through a divorce, so I'd take my advice with a grain of salt), it seems to me working on removing him from your life as quickly as possible would seem to be the best way to handle the current situation. If you're divorcing...don't worry about fixing his problems. They're his problems to deal with now...divorce means that you're not going to allow them to be your problems anymore.

 

I'd work on seperating ASAP. Seperate out the bills, the finances, and work on getting one or the other moved out and away from you. Start working towards building your own support structure that exists WITHOUT him as part of it.

 

Let him handle his own bills, his own issues, his own life. Change your focus back onto just yourself, and your kids if you have them.

 

With all of that said...if you're still interested in books that talk about building marriages or recovering after an affair...let me know.

 

Absolutely wishing you the best in all of this.

[Spark1111]

SU, most of the stuff I've read is more geared towards reconciliation or prevention of infidelity, so most of it probably wouldn't be a relevent to aid you during a divorce. Don't take me wrong, I'd be glad to suggest some decent books to read that can help you improve a marriage...just don't know that I have much in the way of resources to suggest that can help you while you're working through divorce.

 

From my perspective (and remember...I've not been through a divorce, so I'd take my advice with a grain of salt), it seems to me working on removing him from your life as quickly as possible would seem to be the best way to handle the current situation. If you're divorcing...don't worry about fixing his problems. They're his problems to deal with now...divorce means that you're not going to allow them to be your problems anymore.

 

I'd work on seperating ASAP. Seperate out the bills, the finances, and work on getting one or the other moved out and away from you. Start working towards building your own support structure that exists WITHOUT him as part of it.

 

Let him handle his own bills, his own issues, his own life. Change your focus back onto just yourself, and your kids if you have them.

 

With all of that said...if you're still interested in books that talk about building marriages or recovering after an affair...let me know.

 

Absolutely wishing you the best in all of this.

 

Great advice!

 

And SU, you will still need to grieve the end of your marriage. It can still be a confusing and painful and often angry time.

 

It is a major life change. Please find a good IC for yourself and DO keep the focus on you.

 

I wish you peace.

[HappyAtLast]

He's not in some fog. He knows what he's doing.

 

Agree, as a former cheater I can tell you there is NO FOG. I knew exactly what I was doing and the potential consequences thereof as does every adult. Please do not buy into the fog nonsense.

[Owl]

Agree, as a former cheater I can tell you there is NO FOG. I knew exactly what I was doing and the potential consequences thereof as does every adult. Please do not buy into the fog nonsense.

 

I think different people think/act/react in different ways.

 

I can easily believe that you knowingly, intentionally did what you did, well aware of the impacts, repercussions, and likely outcomes.

 

I don't believe that everyone is truly as cogent and forward thinking as all of that, especially when caught up in the "newness" of an affair relationship. They're focused on the good feelings they're experiencing with no true thought or forethought about impacts and consequences.

 

Some experience fog...some act with a purpose.

[HappyAtLast]

I think different people think/act/react in different ways.

 

I can easily believe that you knowingly, intentionally did what you did, well aware of the impacts, repercussions, and likely outcomes.

 

I don't believe that everyone is truly as cogent and forward thinking as all of that, especially when caught up in the "newness" of an affair relationship. They're focused on the good feelings they're experiencing with no true thought or forethought about impacts and consequences.

 

Some experience fog...some act with a purpose.

 

If so, that someone is not truly cogent it is only because they are allowing themselves to not be so. Hence, not really a "fog" per se, but a self-indulgence.

 

Let's say I am experiencing some really great feelings and I allow myself to get swept away in them and ignore my four year old great grandchild who is right now swimming in our pool. Am in in a fog or simply negligent?

 

To add - ignoring the safety of my great grandchild is the same to me as putting aside the hurt that I would be causing (hence safety) of my spouse.

[Owl]

Am in in a fog or simply negligent?

 

Yes.

 

Using the term "fog" doesn't negate their responsibility for their actions.

 

It simply describes the lack of clarity in what should be rational thinking.

 

It's not an excuse, it doesn't alleviate them for the responsibiliity of their actions. It just provides a metaphor to demonstrate how greatly they've let their emotions rule over their intelligent thought.

 

Using the term "fog" in this context is like using the term "fog of war" to describe the confusion and chaos that occurs on the battlefield...only in this instance, it's in the mind of a single person, rather than in the minds of hundreds or thousands on a battlefield.

 

Saying "they were foggy" doesn't excuse their actions...and I agree with you somewhat...I totally believe that some people aren't the least bit "foggy" when they choose to cheat. But I do believe that some are...especially those that are already prone to allow their emotions and feelings to overwhelm their rational mind.

[HappyAtLast]

 

Saying "they were foggy" doesn't excuse their actions...and I agree with you somewhat...I totally believe that some people aren't the least bit "foggy" when they choose to cheat. But I do believe that some are...especially those that are already prone to allow their emotions and feelings to overwhelm their rational mind.

 

It is the use of the fog to excuse someone's own, or the action of their spouse that I find upsetting.

 

I personally, being a very black and white sort, have a hard time understanding how someone could cheat and not at least consider how their actions would affect their spouse. I knew, precisely what I was risking.

 

I have a very hard time believing that those folks don't at least have a small moment of clarity that they then push down into "the fog" hence giving themselves license to continue on.

[Owl]

It is the use of the fog to excuse someone's own, or the action of their spouse that I find upsetting.

 

I personally, being a very black and white sort, have a hard time understanding how someone could cheat and not at least consider how their actions would affect their spouse. I knew, precisely what I was risking.

 

I have a very hard time believing that those folks don't at least have a small moment of clarity that they then push down into "the fog" hence giving themselves license to continue on.

 

I agree with this completely.

 

Hence why I personally do not view "fog" as an excuse/reason/whatever to forgive their actions. It doesn't negate their responsibility for their choices.

 

I completely agree...during EVERY affair of any kind...there's a point where the married person thinks "I shouldn't be doing this" or "My spouse would be totally devestated if he/she knew about this..."........and then they continue on anyway.

[HappyAtLast]

Owl, I think we definitely have common ground here. And, please note that I am in no way opposed to folks reconciling after affairs. I truly do believe it can happen, in the same way that I do not subscribe to the "once a cheater theory."

 

That said, I firmly believe that folks (as you did) look clearly at the situation and acknowledge that their spouse did knowingly risk their happiness and their health. Just like my wife acknowledge, when we married, that I certainly was capable of cheating.

 

Maybe it is those who don't acknowledge the above that are really the ones in the fog?

[Severely Unamused]

SU, most of the stuff I've read is more geared towards reconciliation or prevention of infidelity, so most of it probably wouldn't be a relevent to aid you during a divorce. Don't take me wrong, I'd be glad to suggest some decent books to read that can help you improve a marriage...just don't know that I have much in the way of resources to suggest that can help you while you're working through divorce.

 

From my perspective (and remember...I've not been through a divorce, so I'd take my advice with a grain of salt), it seems to me working on removing him from your life as quickly as possible would seem to be the best way to handle the current situation. If you're divorcing...don't worry about fixing his problems. They're his problems to deal with now...divorce means that you're not going to allow them to be your problems anymore.

 

I'd work on seperating ASAP. Seperate out the bills, the finances, and work on getting one or the other moved out and away from you. Start working towards building your own support structure that exists WITHOUT him as part of it.

 

Let him handle his own bills, his own issues, his own life. Change your focus back onto just yourself, and your kids if you have them.

 

With all of that said...if you're still interested in books that talk about building marriages or recovering after an affair...let me know.

 

Absolutely wishing you the best in all of this.

 

I'm actually pretty experienced when it comes to law, so any help there won't be neccessary. I'm also pretty much going to be burning through my wallet anyway (my prediction is that I will lose around 65-70% of my net worth), so any further expenditures aren't going to do much.

 

I'd still appreciate any book recommendations you can give me. Despite going down the divorce route, I plan on using the next 6-8 months as a learning experience. There's always the possibility that we will get remarried for one thing. And even though my husband says that he will always want our romantic relationship back (I appreciate the sentiment), I'd still like to mantain a solid platonic friendship with him.

 

there is NO FOG.

I'd be inclined to agree. But I try to look at each affair dynamic (and everybody caught in the middle of them) on a case by case basis.

 

I'd say that some WSs are able to keep a relatively clear head about them, but others end up getting completely caught up in their own emotions to a destructive degree. Are there any WSs here that agree with the latter point?

 

Looking back, I think that I would be left rather incredulous if my husband had said that he was "in a fog", on d-day. It would be similar to me saying that I was "consumed by my emotions" when I began moving around my assets a few weeks ago.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Severely Unamused
Tired.

[HappyAtLast]

 

Looking back, I think that I would be left rather incredulous if my husband had said that he was "in a fog", on d-day. It would be similar to me saying that I was "consumed by my emotions" when I began moving around my assets a few weeks ago.

 

Now THAT was funny