Why are there so many As??? Why???

[jwi71]

Replacing it instead with the pain of an unnecessary D.

 

I thought the discussion was about "affairs cause pain because society tells us it does". Not sure why you are now introducing the pain of a D here. This would be more appropriate in the D forum and in a discussion about how painful D's are (or are not).

 

My argument isn't that cheating is good or morally right, only that it's unavoidably predominant and people are inappropriately trained to deal with it when it happens. Otherwise functional relationships are destroyed every day not by cheating alone, but by the combination of cheating and the partner's unwillingness to approach the problem constructively. Of all the ways a person may behave badly, only one is given the loaded title of "cheating", as if there was only one rule in a relationship to be evaded.

 

Huh? I was under the impression you were claiming that cheating hurts because we have been subjected to societal dogma that says it does.

Not sure what all that was about...

 

That's a trick question, since you're setting the groundwork for claiming that any example I give is an example of "open marriage" rather than "cheating."

 

How is "list cultures that condone cheating" a trick question?

 

Nevertheless, the list would be reasonably substantial

,

 

Since you can think of a substantial number...list a few please.

 

- In the history of the West, male womanizing has always been socially tolerated (and not considered grounds for divorce). During the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, adultery became idealized as the highest form of love among the aristocracy, with love between spouses considered to be impossible.

 

Yawn. I don't recall asking for a broad sweeping generalization of 700 year old Western culture.

 

Can you list a CURRENT culture, of which there a "substantial number", that condones extra-marital affairs?

 

I know of ONE, ONE, where there is NO expectation of marital fidelity by either partner. In fact, they husband and wife do NOT cohabitate. I'll give you a hint....Eastern China - and while they are married, that society's definition of M is foreign to virtually everyone. Google away.

 

- In traditional China, it was commonly accepted that parents could force their son to take a concubine if his wife did not produce a son, regardless of his wife's (or his own) wishes. If he refused, the parents could divorce the couple and marry him to someone else.

 

While this may or may not be correct, and I'll assume it is correct, I'm guessing the W was well aware of the situation?

 

No one is arguing against rules and boundaries in relationships. I'm arguing for enforcing them with understanding, and for prioritizing love before them.

 

I thought you were arguing that cheating alone was insufficient to hurt the BS. That cheating only hurts because society tells it should. Let me check.

 

<reads your posts>....yup, that's what you were saying. Why change it now?

 

Certainly. The potentially cheating spouse can choose not to cheat and that avoids the pain. Can the potentially cheated spouse do anything to avoid it? Of course: take a realistic and loving stance towards the possibility that his/her spouse may make a mistake.

 

So, the BS feels pain because society tells the BS he/she should and the BS feels pain because they are pig-headed enough to "not be realistic and loving" in the face of betrayal. And, you also seem to insinuate the BS didn't "Avoid it". Again, like I had previously guessed, this is a intellectually poor and emotionally immature attempt to blame any and everyone BUT the WS.

 

Like I said before, if you don't you believe in monogamy just tell your date straight-up. Hey, I think M is for chumps and I will totally cheat on you if I want. And if it hurts, blame society.

 

At this point, I'll point you to woinlove's reply below. She, along with CCL, are in open M's and CCL at least was cheated on. woinlove speaks perfectly to it as she sees it. Its a view that is widely held across cultures.

 

Here's another non-trick question. How many cultures find deception and dishonesty acceptable? Name one? Uh, a current one. And nothing about rock baboons of the Serengeti either - if you wish to argue rock baboon society I'm sure there is a forum for that.

 

The point is: the question that started this thread is about one particular kind of betrayal, not all betrayal. Why not? There are lots of ways to betray someone, but only one that we give a special loaded name to. The shock and prostration are reserved for sexual betrayal. That socially conditioned shock and disgust interfere with the ability to rationally and lovingly approach the problem when it occurs. Yes, people can choose not to do it. But they don't all succeed. A spouse should be emotionally prepared for the possibility.

 

Read woinlove's reply.

Her view of M is counter to most yet she feels the sting of betrayal.

I can't wait to hear you explain that one.

[Spark1111]

Buck, I do agree that we have been culturally conditioned to think infidelity is wrong.

 

As women, we are raised to believe that our kight in shining armor will come along, he will want to marry us and he will never want to look at another woman again. (thanks, Disney).

 

Although intellectually we know that men are biologically inclined to be physically attracted to youth and beauty, we expect that our man's love for us will keep him sexually faithful, even as our face wrinkes, our boobs drop and our ass spreads.

 

Unrealistic? I believe so. Men can love and become bonded to their wives, but it is rare that the love is so all-encompassing that he never notices other women. It is natural to be attracted to others, and men are put in the position of constantly having to hide and suppress these feelings if they wish to be sexually faithful.

 

In addition, men are often groomed from a young age to hide the truth from women. Women have the reputation of having unpleasant or emotional reactions to bad news. I call it the "Don't worry your pretty little head about it" syndrome. There is this belief with many men that we can't handle the truth. And so it is hidden.

 

Since birth, men have been taught to appease women and be nice (beginning with Mommy) and they learn early on that being sweet to women often gets them what they want. To basically tell us what we want to hear to keep the peace. And that bad news (or too much honesty) will be met with tears, hysteria or punishment.

 

So they lie.

 

If men were to live authentically, it would probably involve being married, loving and providing for their wife and children, but having others outside the marriage for sexual variety.

 

But they can't live authentically, because most women would never accept that.

 

To be honest, many 40+ women that I know don't have a strong sex drive. They have sex with their H to meet his needs, but they no longer have a physical desire for sex. They can take it or leave it. These women are very hurt when their husband cheats, but not because of the sex with others (they often feel relieved if he doesn't want sex), but because of the lies. Prior to the knowledge of the affair, the women often felt content and loved.

 

A man can provide for his wife for many years, care for her, raise kids with her, support her...all actions of love. And women see and feel this love...but when he is caught cheating she will feel that all those positives are negated by his cheating. Those feelings are caused by cultural conditioning and the belief that a man doesn't love you if he cheats, which is simply not always true, IMO.

 

Men usually feel that the commitment (not sexual fidelity) is the basis of marriage. Men are natural providers, and it feels natural for them to provide for and protect their wife and children. Barring a wife's infidelity, addicition or mental illness, men will usually honor this part of the commitment to their dying breath...because that is what they are naturally driven to do. Monogamy, however, is not natural for them and that is why they have trouble with, IMO.

 

On the other hand, I feel that women are more inclined to be with one man at a time. They usually don't cheat until they feel in their hearts the marriage is over. Most don't feel physically driven to be with multiple men - women's infidelity usually begins emotionally and the physical follows.

 

QS, I agree with what you have posted regarding the social conditioning of men.

 

But the world is changing, drastically, especially in the last 20 years in regards to the role of women.

 

Women, almost as much as men, are attracted to new and different and young and beuatiful. It was never spoken of since women were so dependent of a male provider to protect and provide for her young.

 

As women gain in earning power and job advancement, their needs and desires are beginning to parallel what has always been the norm for men.

 

Monogamy is always a choice as the mostly male-dominated sciences were very surprised to learn in DNA testing.

 

Shocking I know. Women too regain sexuality with new partners, just as men do. Hence, more women today having affairs for the very same reason men do: flattery, admiration, interest and sexually variety with a new partner.

[Spark1111]

Who amongst the married posting on this thread spend a minimum of 15 hours with their spouse per week and I am not talking of household chores of child-raising?

 

I'm talking of texting, calling, flirting, talking, dating, having fun sans kids?

 

Because that is what you both did during courtship. That is about the amount of time spent in an affair, the perpetual third date?

[thomasb]

Very true, Spark. My wife and I learned the hard way to focus on each other more and spend 'quality' time pursuing each other each week. Not just raise the children together.

[carhill]

OK, 15 divided by 7 equals 2.14 hours per day. Yes, we met that standard easily. However, the overwhelming feeling I got from my exW was that it was too much contact. Perhaps the criticism was not so much the quantity of contact but rather the quality of contact, in that the quality was not meeting her standards. We didn't have children, but I did attempt to maintain this style while caring for my mother, which often provided similar distractions to those provided by children, except it was generally a solo pursuit, whereas children (care and raising) is generally a team effort.

 

I'll keep that formula and its importance in mind for the future when seeking out a compatible partner. For me, that daily communication and intimacy is important. Thanks

[findingnemo]

Something occurred to me while reading everybody's posts. People in As often act or feel hurt when or if they find out that their partner has also had an A. If this is not proof that the WS went and had an A out of sefishness, then what is? So then it makes no sense that any of us would risk losing our beloved familes for short-lived pleasure...

[MissBee]

Because we humans choose to have it.

 

 

 

Varies per culture.

 

 

 

Dunno...and not sure why its relevant if labeling ourselves civilized or not is relevant.

 

 

 

Well, you'll be pleased to learn that I cannot think of any "western, civilized culture" where people are forced to marry. One can opt to be remain in the status known as "single" and avoid that monogamy for life.

 

You'll be even more shocked to learn that once people are in this mandatory monogamy (that they voluntarily entered I might add) they are free to leave. Its a ritual called "take them to the cleaners" or "get half"...in laymen's terms divorce. And, depending on who you ask, happens quite frequently. I'm surprised you hadn't heard of it before now and realized that one can leave the M and avoid a cheating situation (and thusly the pain of an A).

 

 

 

Kindly list the cultures where some form of M exists and they consider it ok to cheat.

 

Please note that I define cheating as "surreptitious relationships that one could reasonably assume would not be welcomed by the spouse". An open marriage where both parties agree to have extra-marital emotional and physical relationships do not fall under this definition as the conduct is agreed upon by both parties. And you'd better believe there are rules regarding that as well...we have at least one poster who is in an open M...maybe she'll chime in on that aspect.

 

 

 

Why do you assume that an A is a complete emotional disaster so bad that nothing can cure it? Death's directly accountable to an A are very rare. I would also wager that the loss of a young child is FAR more devastating than an A. With that I wish to highlight the fact that pain is subjective and virtually impossible to standardize across a population.

 

 

 

True.

One could also not cheat and also avoid the "hurt" no?

 

 

 

You are correct is stating that one's choices are culture-defined that is obvious to all. One is also free to leave said culture or even act counter to it...sometimes referred to as "teenagers". It would be a simple exercise to simply announce to every potential partner that you do not believe in M and do not believe in mandatory monogamy. While it may shrink the list of potential partners you are most assuredly not alone - I'm sure you can find "open marriage dating website" and find plenty of like minded persons.

 

As to not being a free agent you are again mistaken.

You can choose to:

1) not marry

2) get a D

3) not cheat

 

I find it very hard to think that cheating is necessary but not sufficient for one to feel pain. It requires both the cheating discovery and societal conditioning to feel pain. This is little more than a weak attempt to blame others (society) for the pain of betrayal (the individual act of cheating).

 

Great post!

[MissBee]

Not sure what you mean by "enforcing" rules in an M. I'm in an open M and, for us, that means openness and honesty. If my H lied and deceived me about a R, I would take that as betrayal and it could end our M. After 25 years of operating in a mode of open, honest communication which sometimes includes other R's, I feel we know and understand each other's values very well and don't expect my H's values related to honesty and loyalty to change. But if they did, I probably would not choose to spend the rest of my life with someone who chose deception and dishonesty. Perhaps you think that is not "understanding" or not "prioritizing love", but to me it is knowing the kind of values I need in a life partner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is the realistic and loving stance toward choosing to deceive one's spouse in order to have another R? Is it to decide that honesty and openness aren't that important so the lack of them in your R should be overlooked? Or sometimes you have them and sometimes you don't, no big deal? Yes, if honesty, trust, openness are not important to you in an R, fine. To those who feel they are important, I say good for them. These are great values and they make great marriages. Don't sell yourself or your partner short if these are important to you.

 

 

 

Personally, I have not found honesty that difficult. Do you find it difficult?

 

I found a partner who shared my desire for honesty and openness. We are both willing to listen to difficult things and it really is not that difficult. Monogamy? I would find it difficult - could probably do it if there was an important reason to do it - and certainly there are times I have found it very important, such as when my H and I are facing stress due to illness, a tragedy, etc., in which case we choose monogamy, typically for years at a time.

 

I think the key point is not make your spouse think that you value monogamy, that you expect it and will honor it, but then lie about it. If monogamy is not important to you or you decide to give it a pass, tell your spouse. Why is that so difficult? That is an honest question. It must be difficult for some people because they don't do it. I've never cheated myself, so not exactly sure why honesty is so difficult.

 

 

 

What other kinds of betrayal do you have in mind? Financial betrayal by a spouse can be quite devastating. However, barring ending up without food and shelter, I can't say money is nearly as important to me as issues surrounding love and friendship, which Rs impact on.

 

Amazing post! I particularly resonate with the bolded

[wheelwright]

What I find interesting is people who insist that cultures should change to meet their individual desires.

 

Sure, that makes a lot more sense than changing individual expectations to meet cultural ones. :rolleyes:

 

If you want a change...you change what's within your scope of control...yourself.

 

If you insist that others should change to meet YOUR morals/expectations/desires/whatever...you're probably an idiot.

 

Just a thought.

 

What would you have done in Hitler's Germany? Sometimes it's clear that the culture can be wrong.

 

People act to change culture. And that can be a very good thing.

[wheelwright]

When I read about the tax cheaters I thought:

 

If you claim to be a socialist, care about your country, and cheat on tax, then you have a probable moral hypocrisy going on.

 

If you are not a socialist, and think taxes are worth jack, then you are going to scam if poss.

 

If you are a socialist, but think the system is skewed against you and takes more than you have to give while giving nothing in return, then I am not sure but you may think twice about paying all the tax.

 

Just some thoughts to extend the metaphor....

[PatFinkle]

There's a thread about MPs using the excuse of not leaving their kids to stay in their Ms and end their As. Heck, this whole board is about people either having As, or suffering the consequences of their partner having and A, or being the willing participant in an A.

 

I wonder though. With all the As going on, something is not right. After all it's happened from time immemorial. If people who participate in As are selfish, delusional, have sociopathic tendencies etc which in most peoples' view are fringe behaviours, why are there so many of them? Are we saying that MPs having As are a lot less in number than those who are faithful? are we saying that most people don't have As and are therefore selfless? I guess that's why we discuss these things. The more I read peoples' views, the more I think that it makes no sense that people would risk so much for pleasure that they themselves know can't compare to the worth of thier own families. So WTF makes them risk it all? Why are so many people having As?

 

What do you think is the fundamental problem here? Why are there so many As?

 

The real reason so much cheating happens is because there seem to be tons of messed-up married women and OWs willing to give it up in exchange for not much more than smooth talk.

 

I mean how crazy is that? "He told me he loved me." Gee that's all it takes to get a woman to hop in bed? I wish I'd known.

[seren]

I think the reasons for A's are as different as the A's themselves. I can understand a marriage failing, I can understand people wanting to be together, but end the marriage first. I also think that the non face to face technology of today makes it so much easier and think that some people get carried away with the secrecy and yes, the excitement of it. Someone always gets hurt, I know some go on to have happy marriages or relationships, but so wish the marriage ended first or at the very least, soon afterwards.

 

I think if it is really all that, the WS will quickly end the marriage. The lying and destruction is so, so not the way to begin a relationship or end one either.

[Fight4Me]

What would you have done in Hitler's Germany? Sometimes it's clear that the culture can be wrong.

 

People act to change culture. And that can be a very good thing.

 

Your last two statements are ironic given that it was Hitler who "acted to change cultures," including that of Germany itself. The rise of the Third Reich and Hitler's dictatorship was a swift, systematic political campaign that eliminated basic human rights for all of Germany's people, and thus ushered in the horrific methodical genocide of millions of people. He set out to conquer and destroy cultures and is the epitome of evil and a great example of how the act of changing a culture can actually be a very bad thing.

 

Over all, I can't see how "Nazi Germany" contributes to answering the OP's original question... unless you are trying to draw a parallel between monogamy and the Holocaust.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Fight4Me

[wheelwright]

but what if you are not a socialist, cheat on your taxes but still avail yourself of the goods and services purchased with said taxes?

 

(e.g.- someone who doesn't believe in "socialized medicine", resemnts that their taxes pay for it, and so they cheat on their taxes. How many of these people offer to pay in full for their health care the next time they need it? Are they upfront and say " all along, i didn't believe in it, so now i'll pay my own way", or do they clam up and let the "system" foot the bill?. Honesty is great, when it's to their benefit, but they sure have a double standard about truth when it's to their advantage to lie)

 

Very good point. That happens in the cheating that this is a metaphor too.

 

At some point they will feel guilty when faced with the benefits the system offers? They may remain 'split' between two courses of action. Wouldn't it be terrible if they never decide whether to fully live by their principles?

 

This does depend how poor they are though. A very poor socialist may see their poverty as system determined, and therefore it would be reasonable to try to improve matters at the system's expense.

 

A rich socialist employing this thinking would be a hypocrite though.

 

I love a good metaphor.

[wheelwright]

Your last two statements are ironic given that it was Hitler who "acted to change cultures," including that of Germany itself. The rise of the Third Reich and Hitler's dictatorship was a swift, systematic political campaign that eliminated basic human rights for all of Germany's people, and thus ushered in the horrific methodical genocide of millions of people. He set out to conquer and destroy cultures and is the epitome of evil and a great example of how the act of changing a culture can actually be a very bad thing.

 

Over all, I can't see how "Nazi Germany" contributes to answering the OP's original question... unless you are trying to draw a parallel between monogamy and the Holocaust.

 

Audacious!

 

I was trying to point out that questioning a culture can be right. That's what I said.

 

I did not draw a parallel between monogamy and the holocaust!

 

I get your point, but you need to refer back to the post I responded to.

 

The point is, you need to question cultural values. Heck, question everything to see if it holds up. Or go with gut feeling and say so.

 

If you think cheating is wrong because of gut feeling, then fine. Same with the holocaust. For me gut feeling works more strongly in the latter.

 

I am willing to question the cultural value that cheating is always wrong. I am willing to condemn the views of nazi Germany.

 

I am happy with anti-nazi morals and idealogy.

 

But your argument still works against mine. It brings it back to a personal evaluation, and not anything more.

 

Same for you I guess.

 

Ethics are very tricky. I am reminded of a phrase in another thread - I don't like it when you do X.

 

As we see, it's a can of worms, and in general it's gut reaction played against tolerance played against some kind of best outcome for all concerned (which is deeply divisive).

 

Religion steps in to solve it for many. Or another form of faith. Evolution for example.

[jwi71]

I am willing to question the cultural value that cheating is always wrong.

 

In what circumstances is cheating "not wrong"?

And would you be willing to tell a date that?

 

 

Ethics are very tricky.

 

Sure can be.

But how about the ethics of deception and betrayal?

 

My point is this:

 

Its 100% acceptable, to me anyway, to have a different set of values than mine. What is NOT acceptable, is to claim to share my values when, in fact, you do not.

 

If one does not believe in monogamy or that there are circumstances in which cheating is acceptable...isn't that something that should be shared honestly and openly upfront with a potential suitor? Or is it acceptable to deceive by omission that cheating and associated behaviors can, to you (at certain times) be acceptable? My presumption is the suitor would expect 100% fidelity in all situations - a reasonable one methinks.

 

Just askin'

[wheelwright]

In what circumstances is cheating "not wrong"?

And would you be willing to tell a date that?

 

Sure can be.

But how about the ethics of deception and betrayal?

 

My point is this:

 

Its 100% acceptable, to me anyway, to have a different set of values than mine. What is NOT acceptable, is to claim to share my values when, in fact, you do not.

 

If one does not believe in monogamy or that there are circumstances in which cheating is acceptable...isn't that something that should be shared honestly and openly upfront with a potential suitor? Or is it acceptable to deceive by omission that cheating and associated behaviors can, to you (at certain times) be acceptable? My presumption is the suitor would expect 100% fidelity in all situations - a reasonable one methinks.

 

Just askin'

 

I would tell a date how I felt.

 

The ethics of deception and betrayal are on the face of things easy, and on deeper scrutiny complex.

 

What is acceptable and what is not ultimately comes down to the people involved.

 

But not before the world and her H have made their passing judgements, the kids and the house have been considered, and the therapists been thrown in to confirm all culturally held morality.

 

Add a pinch of guilt, narcissistic posited reasons for said betrayal such as an uncommonly poor upbringing, and bobs your uncle - a minefield of assertions and condemnations based on cultural idioms and dogma..

 

How the two people involved get to wade through all this to any sane outcome seems as miraculous as human life.

[bentnotbroken]

I would tell a date how I felt.

 

The ethics of deception and betrayal are on the face of things easy, and on deeper scrutiny complex.

 

What is acceptable and what is not ultimately comes down to the people involved.

 

But not before the world and her H have made their passing judgements, the kids and the house have been considered, and the therapists been thrown in to confirm all culturally held morality.

 

Add a pinch of guilt, narcissistic posited reasons for said betrayal such as an uncommonly poor upbringing, and bobs your uncle - a minefield of assertions and condemnations based on cultural idioms and dogma..

 

How the two people involved get to wade through all this to any sane outcome seems as miraculous as human life.

 

 

Yet they both happen several times a day, almost routinely.