Eddie Edirol Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Oh I definately know what you mean...and I understand it puts men at bay by making sure their intentions are true. But, I get tired of hearing stories from women who had to actually had to tell a guy to stop trying to ACT like their boyfriend in social situations. There's this one woman I know, apparently she told this guy she just wanted to be friends when they hung out...went to movies or other places. But it came to an end when he they were at a house party and he was hanging aorund her a little too much kind of "acting" like they're a couple by throwing pet names in her direction. She took him aside and said, 'LIsten, why don't you go mingle with other people around here, and quit calling me 'sweetie", people are starting to think we're a couple" This was rather heartbreaking to him, but I guess that finalized the fact she had NO romantic interest in him whatsoever. ) I dont understand why you brought this up, unless this guy was you. Because this guy already sensed that she wasnt into him but he kept pushing anyway, and she had to embarrass him to get him to stop. This guy was an idiot.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Your idea of dates, frankly, is pretty scary. What's the point of going out with someone, who can't enjoy your company, because all he/she cares about is worrying how to fend off sexual advances? And you counter this by creating your own schedule to have sex. You sound pretty controlling. For the record, I don't believe in any schedules - if emotions are strong, and logistics are OK, so be it. You think you're some kind of superior being, because of that? I don't have a 'schedule'. It is simply unrealistic to believe you are going to have any real intimacy with someone you've known for a handful of dates. The likelihood of building it later isn't all that great either... hence the dating rollercoaster, drama, and popularity of online 'dating' with all of its promise of instant results. All of it we see here. Yes, I do think I'm superior for being able to delay gratification long enough to legitimately get to know someone. It was a quality I was able to cultivate in my professional life, but not one I learned to cultivate in my personal life until much later. I have the divorce to show for it. Live and learn. The ability to delay gratification is a feature you will find in any person who has achieved anything significant in life... and I'm not talking about titles, position, or money... I'm talking about people who find satisfying friendships, careers, and yes... love relationships too.
phineas Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Well, these ladies I'm approaching are just as average looking as I am. Plain Jane with an Average Joe, but STILL...the FZ can rear itself up there. I don't pursue perfect 10s, just women equal to me in looks I am 5'8", 165lbs, so an average build....but wouldn't consider myself a David Beckham look-alike either. I stay active. Like I said, an average Joe seeking an Average Jane. I have to say, that's one problem right there. Average chicks get hit on the most. To the point where they are mini-celebrities. Their stuck up & have gone home from a bar with guys who are hot because an average girl is better than your hand. They are always keeping their options open because they think since they got a hot guy to bang them once they can get one in a relationship. Get out of your comfort zone & start hitting on the hot chicks. As long as you are in shape & not a fat slob you might be surprised. However it also depends on how old you are. women in their mid to early 20's are a nightmare.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) I would never tell a guy I wanted to date that I was only interested in friendship, and that sounds an odd "test" indeed. Dating does not = early or immediate sex. All it means is that you are getting to know someone with some romantic preconditions. I have been on several dates before I even kissed a guy, but he knew I was interested in him in a potentially romantic way and I was not telling him, "I'm not into dating right now." If you want to delay physicality. . . all you have to do is delay physicality. And you're right that guys who are truly interested in you will be relatively okay with that, as long as you don't go to crazy extremes or expect the relationship to progress immediately in other ways (i.e. I want you to call me every morning and every night and be 100% committed to you, but I'm not even making out with you for 3 months or something weird). Guys can and will take it slowly. But they want to know that you're on the same page. Why would you want a guy who would "date" you and do date-like things when you were saying, "I'm not into you that way." That's not showing interest. . . it's showing a lack of ability to follow your set boundaries. Before I decided to move... I'd tell single, available men who are open to a relationship I need to be friends before deciding if there is romantic potential... if the topic even comes up. I have no idea if there is 'romantic potential' until I get to know him... The topic doesn't always come up. Sometimes they just ask me out and it comes up during the outing in some way. If I like a guy, I will ask him out too... 'Date' like things are things he'd be doing anyway if he has a life and has an opening for a relationship. I ride my bike, go camping, running, go to concerts, movies, etc either by myself or with friends. Sure, having someone I may be interested in inviting into my life can join me and vice versa. That's how it usually goes. There really aren't that many single men where I currently live, so it's not a situation I face all that often. The ones that are tend to be doing the 3rd date shuffle on the online dating sites looking for instant love and 'soulmates'. To each his/her own. So, I just need to find a bigger pool... Right now, I tell men who cross my path that I'm in the process of moving somewhere else (a different country, most likely) and that all I have to offer is companionship, but not a relationship unless they are up to moving with me. Plenty seem to be ok with that. Just companionship. Sometimes it is nice to hang out on a patio someplace and share a beer. No worries... Is that a date? Who knows. Who cares. Edited August 16, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife
zengirl Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Before I decided to move... I'd tell single, available men who are open to a relationship I need to be friends before deciding if there is romantic potential... if the topic even comes up. I have no idea if there is 'romantic potential' until I get to know him... The topic doesn't always come up. Sometimes they just ask me out and it comes up during the outing in some way. If I like a guy, I will ask him out too... 'Date' like things are things he'd be doing anyway if he has a life and has an opening for a relationship. I ride my bike, go camping, running, go to concerts, movies, etc either by myself or with friends. Sure, having someone I may be interested in inviting into my life can join me and vice versa. That's how it usually goes. There really aren't that many single men where I currently live, so it's not a situation I face all that often. The ones that are tend to be doing the 3rd date shuffle on the online dating sites looking for instant love and 'soulmates'. To each his/her own. So, I just need to find a bigger pool... Right now, I tell men who cross my path that I'm in the process of moving somewhere else (a different country, most likely) and that all I have to offer is companionship, but not a relationship unless they are up to moving with me. Plenty seem to be ok with that. Just companionship. Sometimes it is nice to hang out on a patio someplace and share a beer. No worries... Is that a date? Who knows. Who cares. Well, if you only want to have sex with a guy who you're in a relationship with and you won't get into a relationship . . . you're essentially making friends. Why does attraction factor into it? I have male friends and am totally down with them. And I even understand "taking things slow" but what you're saying sounds confusing. P.S. When I said "date like" things, I mean ACTING like it's a date and he wants to date you. My male friends do not act the same towards me as my BF or a guy I am dating (nor do I want or expect them to!), but we definitely hang out.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) It is hard to put into words, which may be why I could be misinterpreting how you actually interact in these situations. When you "date" is it obvious that it is a date to you and the guy, or do you treat these "dates" as if you were just hanging out with friends? Does the guy ever pay, get your car door, pick you up, rub your arm once in a while? Do you guys talk on a more deeper level than with normal guy friends? While I can be more open with female friends, I definitely am more personal and willing to talk about who I am and how I tick with someone who I am interested in. Do dates every become implied or does the exclusivity talk ever happen before you feel they know you enough to have sex? Do these "dates" give you butterflies, etc? Are you two doing things that friends dont do..holding hands, holding each other,kissing, etc; intimate physical gestures that friends dont share, but that isnt sex The way I picture these encounters from your description is you two just decide to hang out, totally dutch, you guys meet up, other friends could easily be there, you sit and talk and act as if there is no physical attraction, as if they were a sibling, etc. ok, here's a perfect example... I just met a fellow colleague a few weeks ago during a meeting I made to discuss a class we are teaching at different times (in addition to running my own company, I also teach a class or two at a local university). I had no idea when I set the meeting up that he'd be close to my age and attractive. Not that it mattered. It is a business meeting. I have no idea what his relationship status is or his life goals are. After our meeting with the book publisher, I asked him if he had time to go to lunch to talk about the syllabus and class content. This was not a date (even though I doubt I could hide that I found him attractive). He's just a co-worker at this point. He really can't hide that he's attracted to me either. But we have business to attend to... right? During this lunch, he asks lots of questions about my life. Basic 'get to know you' type questions and I do the same. We actually needed to have many more meetings before class starts... he asked if he could meet me during the evening because he happened to be in town. Was he asking for a date? Who knows? first things first. We did actually meet the next week over coffee and did manage to knock out the syllabus (interspersed with some other chatting that indicates we have some mutual activities we enjoy). Still not a 'date' in my book. But I invited him to set next to me... and didn't move away when our legs accidentally touched. He lightly touched my arm once during our meeting, and I didn't pull away then either. Afterwards, I invited him to come out to take a look at my motorcycle (I learned he has one too). I followed up the next day with a short email saying that I enjoyed talking about the class and chatting him up about the late model cars he rebuilds (ok, we are both Mech Engineers... geeks unite!!). He didn't email me back for a week. When he did, he kept it professional and bailed from our tentative get together that Friday. We have another one set up tomorrow though. So, who knows?? I'm not worrying about it much. but he is a co-worker, and those are off-limits to me... but a university setting is much different than a corporate setting. We are peers. Neither of us one up or one down on the heirarchy or any influence over my job performance whatsoever. The students and dean decide that. So, I may bend my rules for him. Or just wait until the semester is over. By then I should have some input on work prospects overseas (he doesn't know I'm looking and I can't tell him... I don't want to lose my university gig). Sorry for the long post or hijacking... but that is what it looks like. If he tried to kiss me tomorrow, I'd give him my cheek and a nice hug, and see how he takes that... Would find other ways to show I'm interested and use the next opportunity to have some conversation of the work situation and his relationship goals. Don't see it happening though. Do I care? Naa. He's a sweetie and I like talking to him. No worries... Crushes are fun!! Edited August 16, 2011 by ThsAmericanLife
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Sorry for the long post or hijacking... but that is what it looks like. If he tried to kiss me tomorrow, I'd give him my cheek and a nice hug, and see how he takes that... Would find other ways to show I'm interested and use the next opportunity to have some conversation of the work situation and his relationship goals. Don't see it happening though. Do I care? Naa. He's a sweetie and I like talking to him. No worries... Crushes are fun!! Okay, not as bad as I pictured at all! That isnt something just friends with no interest would do, especially the bolded part...like I said, the way you talked earlier...it just came off as just a mundane hanging out as friends, nothing physical allowed (as in touching of an arm or leg, etc, not set sex ) for months
grkBoy Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Sounds like ThisAmericanLife simply takes it slow. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even find fault in women or men who honestly do "friends first" IF they actually have no issue dating their friends. That means they will date men and women they're friends with, and not just claim "friends first" as a means to reject people. What drives men and women to call "BS" on "friends first" is when a man or woman FZ's them, then two weeks later is calling some guy or girl they just met their significant other. I know some will say you can't treat everyone equally and sometimes it's a massive crush at first sight...but it's still what leads many to walk away from the friendzone or anyone saying "friends first". I honestly would walk if I was single...just a waste of time because of my experiences in the friendzone.
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Sounds like ThisAmericanLife simply takes it slow. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even find fault in women or men who honestly do "friends first" IF they actually have no issue dating their friends. That means they will date men and women they're friends with, and not just claim "friends first" as a means to reject people. What drives men and women to call "BS" on "friends first" is when a man or woman FZ's them, then two weeks later is calling some guy or girl they just met their significant other. I know some will say you can't treat everyone equally and sometimes it's a massive crush at first sight...but it's still what leads many to walk away from the friendzone or anyone saying "friends first". I honestly would walk if I was single...just a waste of time because of my experiences in the friendzone. Yeah, I think I understand her perfectly....her definition of "friends first" is really just taking it slow Friendszone as you described up there is just pure BS and what people say when they arent attracted to someone physically/mentally....and then as you mention go out with someone else....AmericanLife is just talking about taking things slow first and not want to sleep with someone until she really knows them (which is fine) and you cant know someone after just a month or two
Author irc333 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Posted August 16, 2011 Sounds like ThisAmericanLife simply takes it slow. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even find fault in women or men who honestly do "friends first" IF they actually have no issue dating their friends. That means they will date men and women they're friends with, and not just claim "friends first" as a means to reject people. What drives men and women to call "BS" on "friends first" is when a man or woman FZ's them, then two weeks later is calling some guy or girl they just met their significant other. I know some will say you can't treat everyone equally and sometimes it's a massive crush at first sight...but it's still what leads many to walk away from the friendzone or anyone saying "friends first". I honestly would walk if I was single...just a waste of time because of my experiences in the friendzone. True, I can understand that women use the FZ to put a rein on a guy who wants to rush things, those women are rather rare....which is fine. I like that idea/method. But in most cases, the friendship they claim they want to have with you, doesn't necessarily mean they actually want you around them though. It's actually a nice way to reject you. I have a male friend who sees it as a good thing, that hanging around women (even as friends) can help you learn about them and perhaps even know how to interact with other women as you evolve your socialization with them.
Author irc333 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Posted August 16, 2011 Most women, Ih ave asked out, though....tended to avoid me, or if they saw me in person, would be kind of cold with me or cordial from taht point on....it seemed that once I've asked them out, their point of view of me changed (esp when they knew I was interested simply by asking them out)
zengirl Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 That makes more sense described ThsAmericanLife. Personally, I don't dig dating my friends in general----mostly because I like boundaries----but I've had dynamics similar to that that were generally unlabeled and crushes that later bloomed and such. Especially those relationships that bloomed out of my social circle. I would've not quite called those people friends though. More potentials. My friend-friends, including the guys, are actually friends, and we can talk openly, and I'd wingwoman for them (and have), and so on. I do want them around and I do want to be friends with them, so if they wanted to date me, that'd be a bit awkward. If they still want to be friends even though I'm not into dating, that can sometimes be overcome (usually depends HOW into dating me the guy was and how good he is at having female friends etc). I do agree "Let's be friends" is a stupid let-down. Don't say you want to be friends if you don't! There are guys who hit on me who I don't want to be friends with, and I'd just tell them, "No thank you."
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Most women, Ih ave asked out, though....tended to avoid me, or if they saw me in person, would be kind of cold with me or cordial from taht point on....it seemed that once I've asked them out, their point of view of me changed (esp when they knew I was interested simply by asking them out) I HATE when women do this...just because I asked you out, and if you're not interested doesn't turn me into some hideous monster....now if I confessed some undying love for you (which I would only do if was friends with that person and actually developed feelings for them) I understand, something has changed...BUT just asking out someone I hardly know/am an acquaintances with just means I'm interested in getting to know them more, I dont know if I have any or could have any feelings for you
zengirl Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 I HATE when women do this...just because I asked you out, and if you're not interested doesn't turn me into some hideous monster....now if I confessed some undying love for you (which I would only do if was friends with that person and actually developed feelings for them) I understand, something has changed...BUT just asking out someone I hardly know/am an acquaintances with just means I'm interested in getting to know them more, I dont know if I have any or could have any feelings for you I've had guys (who I thought were friends) avoid me because I didn't dig going out with them, so this goes both ways, and it IS a little weird sometimes. The best way to get the awkward out, I've found, is to both acknowledge it when it happens and address it (I usually tend to say that I want to be friends with the guy still and that I'm flattered, but he's just not my cuppa AND if he seems like a guy that anyone I know would date -- i.e. he's mostly cute and great overall; just truly not my cuppa, which is usually the case -- I try to push through it with saying, "If I see anyone I think is what you're looking for, I totally set you up!" which may come across as annoying, I'm not sure, but seems to break the ice). And then act like nothing happened the next time I see him. But, anyway, she's likely avoiding you because she feels guilty. It's a normal human reaction.
rafallus Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Do I care? Naa. He's a sweetie and I like talking to him. No worries... Crushes are fun!! So, all that was done just for some attention?
Els Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 To be fair, I'm sure plenty of high-quality people are in good relationships and had sex on the first date. Not my problem. I do think that a large number of people who have sex on the first date are often simply interested in casual flings, though. However interested I am in a guy though, I don't have sex until a committed relationship is established. That's just me. I don't think the OP is talking about this, though, he's talking about genuine 'friendzoning', ie the girl telling him she's not interested. I don't see why a girl would play games like that if she liked a guy, yeah. I have definitely done the 'I'm not interested in a relationship at the moment, etc' thing to guys I'm not interested in. C'mon. Do you guys really prefer to hear, "Yeah, sorry, the mere thought of being with you scares the bejeebus out of me, so no." ?
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 I've had guys (who I thought were friends) avoid me because I didn't dig going out with them, so this goes both ways. True, I've never had that problem since I only ask out girls...dont have to deal with guys asking me out
zengirl Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 To be fair, I'm sure plenty of high-quality people are in good relationships and had sex on the first date. Not my problem. I do think that a large number of people who have sex on the first date are often simply interested in casual flings, though. However interested I am in a guy though, I don't have sex until a committed relationship is established. That's just me. I don't think the OP is talking about this, though, he's talking about genuine 'friendzoning', ie the girl telling him she's not interested. I don't see why a girl would play games like that if she liked a guy, yeah. I have definitely done the 'I'm not interested in a relationship at the moment, etc' thing to guys I'm not interested in. C'mon. Do you guys really prefer to hear, "Yeah, sorry, the mere thought of being with you scares the bejeebus out of me, so no." ? I think both of those answers are probably bad. What's wrong with, "Sorry, I'm flattered, but I'm not interested in you." (And then if you would like to be friends, "I totally saw us as friends, but I could never see us dating.") Now, if a guy is an idiot and asks for "Why?" that's his problem, and he's either going to hear why and not like it (depending on my mood) or more likely get an annoyed, "Please respect how I feel" that demonstrates the why is none of his.
carhill Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 "I am not looking for anything but friendship and I hope I didn't give you any wrong ideas." "Great. I'm having a party this weekend and all my friends are invited. It's pot luck. Bring a special desert. See you then." If she's not a Hoover, you'll be impressed.
Eddie Edirol Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 I HATE when women do this...just because I asked you out, and if you're not interested doesn't turn me into some hideous monster....now if I confessed some undying love for you (which I would only do if was friends with that person and actually developed feelings for them) I understand, something has changed...BUT just asking out someone I hardly know/am an acquaintances with just means I'm interested in getting to know them more, I dont know if I have any or could have any feelings for you Women have to do this to make sure the man doesnt keep trying. It has come from conditioning. If they keep being nice after they turn a guy down, the guy might take it as she is still interested and keeps bugging her. They are doing you a favor by avoiding you.
Author irc333 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Posted August 16, 2011 I HATE when women do this...just because I asked you out, and if you're not interested doesn't turn me into some hideous monster....now if I confessed some undying love for you (which I would only do if was friends with that person and actually developed feelings for them) I understand, something has changed...BUT just asking out someone I hardly know/am an acquaintances with just means I'm interested in getting to know them more, I dont know if I have any or could have any feelings for you Yeah, one flirtatious remark, and you're history.
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Women have to do this to make sure the man doesnt keep trying. It has come from conditioning. If they keep being nice after they turn a guy down, the guy might take it as she is still interested and keeps bugging her. They are doing you a favor by avoiding you. Guess a few bad men spoil it for the good and level head ones like me...but that also does increase my odds with a quality lady as the dumb guys who can't take a hint make me look so much better by comparison!
phineas Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Women have to do this to make sure the man doesnt keep trying. It has come from conditioning. If they keep being nice after they turn a guy down, the guy might take it as she is still interested and keeps bugging her. They are doing you a favor by avoiding you. Well, in my experience the women who do this have to because they lead the guy on. Now me, I called a number I got over the weekend last night & left a message. I will not call her again. I got other options. To be honest, I didn't even think about her until now. I was thinking of the other one I was talking to before I got home. It's like if a woman isn't showing a tangible interest in me through actions I loose interest.
Casablanca Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 It's like if a woman isn't showing a tangible interest in me through actions I loose interest. I'm the same way...if I try and contact twice, they'll never hear from me again unless they respond
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 True, I can understand that women use the FZ to put a rein on a guy who wants to rush things, those women are rather rare....which is fine. I like that idea/method. But in most cases, the friendship they claim they want to have with you, doesn't necessarily mean they actually want you around them though. It's actually a nice way to reject you. I have a male friend who sees it as a good thing, that hanging around women (even as friends) can help you learn about them and perhaps even know how to interact with other women as you evolve your socialization with them. You know what? I agree with your male friend... every opportunity one has to spend around people of the opposite sex that they admire and trust (even if it doesn't end up in a 'love' relationship) is the opportunity to learn something. Sure, there are only so many hours in the day. However, finding reasons to meet new people of both genders is a great way to exercise one's social skills. Besides, these new friends have friends too. I've had the opportunity to recommend my ex-boyfriends to my friends and vice versa. Spreading some good karma and all that. It is actually the same way I approach making contacts in my business. Does every interaction lead to a contract or paying gig?? Heck no. Does it lead to a good word, some useful feedback, or potentially future work? You betcha!!
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