The Affair Boat

[John Michael Kane]

Hence, I was wondering what they may have tried to do beforehand to fix the situation.

 

Doesn't matter what they did if they ended up cheating.

 

At the point where you are bedding someone outside the marriage, you are playing with your brain's bonding hormones. So, no you won't be generating the right circumstances to fix intimacy.

You're playing with someone's life when you cheat.

[John Michael Kane]

I meant exactly the opposite. Won't cheat, so I'm stuck...

 

Oh okay...

[dreamingoftigers]

Doesn't matter what they did if they ended up cheating.

 

You're playing with someone's life when you cheat.

 

Um, for my own curiosity, it matters to me. That's why I started the thread.

 

I wasn't asking about the result. I was asking about their process. They've been nice enough to answer and I would like to hear more.

 

By the way, smoking is unhealthy, you can get STDs from unprotected sex with hookers. These guys know this stuff and either they don't care or it's an acceptable risk. I am pretty sure that you have your opinion on it. I want to hear their's.

[John Michael Kane]

Um, for my own curiosity, it matters to me. That's why I started the thread.

 

Okay.

 

I wasn't asking about the result. I was asking about their process. They've been nice enough to answer and I would like to hear more.

 

And why is this process important to you?

 

By the way, smoking is unhealthy, you can get STDs from unprotected sex with hookers. These guys know this stuff and either they don't care or it's an acceptable risk. I am pretty sure that you have your opinion on it. I want to hear their's.

 

Off-topic. We're discussing cheating, right?

[dreamingoftigers]

Okay.

 

 

 

And why is this process important to you?

 

My unbearable desire to learn things. I fare better asking the the source and I am curious about different people's perspectives and seeing if we have anything/ideas in common. Or not. Wanted to see what thinking goes into an affair. If there was quite a good stab at preventing it or if it was maybe not thought about at all. On the emotional/psychological level obviously. Everyone knows that there doesn't need to be a lot of prevention to put D into P. Why people decided to go that route instead of a) accepting the marriage as it was. B) fighting for the marriage until the end of time. C) divorcing D) laying out very clear ultimatums regarding sexuality. And what these folk think of their partners.

 

Off-topic. We're discussing cheating, right?

 

I am not sure that I have ever kept a thread on-topic. Everyone has weaknesses.

[StoneCold]

You know what it is..

 

Actually no....no I dont. Why dont you "enlighten" me

 

 

 

Nah that's not an alternative, dude.

 

 

It certainly is....dude

[StoneCold]

StoneCold, you presented a little differently to me at first....

 

 

What do you mean

[StoneCold]

Control tends to be a male interpretation of a different female trait.

 

You are staring directly at anxiety and lack of security.

 

Bet my life savings on it. Someone is very, very fearful and isn't going about it the right way at all.

 

Oddly enough, when women get that wrenching and fearful they tend to be married to men who fear being pushed around and shamed.

 

Then, they get left alone by such men, increasing their anxiety and round it goes until things worsen.

 

Bet my life's savings.

 

Don't think I have taken a side. I just know the game, seen it about a thousand times.

 

 

You could be on to something here DOT. This may explain why wives of those who are "well to do" just seem happier and are more likely to be pleasing their husbands more. Now of course this isnt ALL because money isnt the only symbol of security; I of course get that...it can happen to the rich too. But if I had to bet my money I would bet on it happening less.

 

But...unless you are a bit mad theres always going to be a reason of some sort as to why people do what they do...still doesnt lessen the damage done to the other spouse at all and even if you know the problem on the other end you may not be able to help, or they simply dont want help.

 

...and you are left with the reality of the situation you are in...which is - you're being refused, your efforts to fix it were/are futile, you cant just up and run at the drop of a hat and you have had enough...

Edited August 17, 2011 by StoneCold

[xxoo]

Oddly enough, when women get that wrenching and fearful they tend to be married to men who fear being pushed around and shamed.

 

Then, they get left alone by such men, increasing their anxiety and round it goes until things worsen.

 

I have seen that dynamic again and again, too.

 

Each blames the other, and can not see the part they played in the dynamic from the beginning.

[xxoo]

I dont pull this stuff out of my ass... I've dated many single mothers to know....the sex is mind boggling and I bet my last dollar the out going guy was "starving". I know this because thy would tell me lol

 

I don't think it is any mystery that new sex partners can be exciting for both men and women, but if you are consistently meeting women who lost interest in longterm partners--have you considered that you are picking a "type" that is bad at relatioships?

[StoneCold]

I don't think it is any mystery that new sex partners can be exciting for both men and women, but if you are consistently meeting women who lost interest in longterm partners--have you considered that you are picking a "type" that is bad at relatioships?

 

 

Well I've only been married once and this is the first I'm experiencing such a concept. I've heard of it before but the idea was so "outlandish" to me that I didnt buy it....I didnt listen.

 

My opinion is not just revolving around my own personal situation...its a consistent observation I have made right across the board with many different people (age, race, cultural background...). I made the mistake of not listening before...I'll not make that mistake again

[xxoo]

Well I've only been married once and this is the first I'm experiencing such a concept. I've heard of it before but the idea was so "outlandish" to me that I didnt buy it....I didnt listen.

 

My opinion is not just revolving around my own personal situation...its a consistent observation I have made right across the board with many different people (age, race, cultural background...). I made the mistake of not listening before...I'll not make that mistake again

 

I was referring to your comment about your experience dating single mothers.

 

But I'm sure it is a common pattern in struggling relationships. Women often lost interest in sex when they feel distanced from their partner. Men start to feel distanced because the sex stops, while women stop the sex because they already feel distanced.

 

But when did the distance begin to grow, and why? That's the million dollar question.

[Lovelybird]

But when did the distance begin to grow, and why? That's the million dollar question.

probably when power struggles begin and understandings end. People like to use manipulation and power to get what they want: love, understanding, and self-interests

[dreamingoftigers]

I was referring to your comment about your experience dating single mothers.

 

But I'm sure it is a common pattern in struggling relationships. Women often lost interest in sex when they feel distanced from their partner. Men start to feel distanced because the sex stops, while women stop the sex because they already feel distanced.

 

But when did the distance begin to grow, and why? That's the million dollar question.

 

Although it has traditionally been labelled a woman's problem, nowadays more women are talking about their men's relative lack of interest in them.

 

As well, one of the books on Codependency and boundaries I have talks about this. When one partner in a codependent relationship starts to feel their balance tip to being too depended upon etc, their sex drive drops out. They feel their partner is too needy/clingy etc. It becomes unattractive whereas the flip side of that is being attentive. Then, of course the partner not getting any start pushing for more, and everything topples over.

 

Then of course there is the whole men-shame and women-fear dynamic.

 

Jeez, you would think after thousands of years of marriage that we would have had it all pegged by now. I am glad we live in an era where there is research on marital patterns that work and don't.

[John Michael Kane]

Actually no....no I dont. Why dont you "enlighten" me

 

You'll find out soon enough.

 

It certainly is....dude

 

No it's not.

[dreamingoftigers]

probably when power struggles begin and understandings end. People like to use manipulation and power to get what they want: love, understanding, and self-interests

 

My guess is the second one person got too ashamed to deal with it and the other person got too scared to deal with it. In a healthy manner of course.

 

You know, I just thought of something weird... If you want to have a life-long career, generally you go to post-secondary education for about 2-4 years. More in many professions.

 

There isn't really any standard recommended education for marital interactions and we fail at them large-scale.

 

Could you imagine if there was a really nice 6 month premarital course for dealing with expectations, shame and fear. Jeez that would be nice (well, it would be practical.)

[StoneCold]

You'll find out soon enough.

 

 

 

No it's not.

 

 

aaaaaand that was your two cents...thanks for coming out

[StoneCold]

You know, I just thought of something weird... If you want to have a life-long career, generally you go to post-secondary education for about 2-4 years. More in many professions..)

 

yet people still get fired, layed off, "downsized"...which is why....

 

There isn't really any standard recommended education for marital interactions and we fail at them large-scale

 

Could you imagine if there was a really nice 6 month premarital course for dealing with expectations, shame and fear. Jeez that would be nice (well, it would be practical.)

 

...I dont think this would be all that effective....because marriage, like professions and everything else...changes; and you may no longer be on the same page as before

 

It would however be refreshing to have people touch the aspects of marriage nobody typically touches these days

[dreamingoftigers]

You could be on to something here DOT. This may explain why wives of those who are "well to do" just seem happier and are more likely to be pleasing their husbands more. Now of course this isnt ALL because money isnt the only symbol of security; I of course get that...it can happen to the rich too. But if I had to bet my money I would bet on it happening less.

 

But...unless you are a bit mad theres always going to be a reason of some sort as to why people do what they do...still doesnt lessen the damage done to the other spouse at all and even if you know the problem on the other end you may not be able to help, or they simply dont want help.

 

...and you are left with the reality of the situation you are in...which is - you're being refused, your efforts to fix it were/are futile, you cant just up and run at the drop of a hat and you have had enough...

 

BUT you may be trying to solve a security problem from a "shaming" perspective, get me?

 

She's saying "I need you to do x" because she wants the bugger picture to look like Y.

 

You are thinking she wants the bigger picture to look like Z, so you do a bunch of things that would make the bigger picture look like Z, so she complains that you didn't do "x." you get kind of put off because you have been doing everything to make the bigger picture look like Z and "the bitch ain't happy"

 

Here is one thing I notice: a lot of guys on here claim: women want that rich guy.

 

Women say: I hope that he would make as much as me or better.

 

Truly, they are often looking for a partner that matches them best. They don't want to have to "take care of" a guy in that respect. It's a bit much culturally etc.

 

Man hear: "the richer I get, the better husband I will be because I will be able to provide better for her, women are greedy etc. They just want that rich guy."

 

Women (I general, of course a lot of them are just bitchy) know: how much a guy pulls in compared to her can really impact his self-esteem in the marriage and cause other issues. Plus, again they want a guy to "match with." I think most regular women wouldn't want a guy who's net worth was 10x theirs. It almost can make them unrelatable. And truly when a guy tries to wield power with money (I.e. My Dad), it's really gross to us.

 

Most of our context comes from connecting a relating ( notice I said most). And doing it on a consistent basis.

 

Funny little examples: my husband was trying to make our marriage a happier place at one point. He saved and brought me to this really expensive place in town. It was nice and all and we had a great time. I do like that stuff. Truth be told though. I would rather we just have had sone nice dinners at home and hold hands. I am not ungrateful, just the small stuff more regularly makes more of an impact than even the big stuff more regularly. Often with big stuff you even start to wonder if the guy is doing it because he likes you or because he wants to prove "I spent xyz dollars on you, see I'm a good husband."

 

Often in relationships I find guys will neglect things for a bit, then when we complain they will do a BIG thing and then go back to doing less until we complain again and because they did that BIG thing last month, it proved that we are never happy.

 

Oddly enough, most women don't know that the less we complain, the more you want to do for us.

 

Most of the time when we bitch, it is actually a request for attention, not because we think you suck. We say it like that because we think you can do better and you've forgotten about us.

 

If you respond to our complaint, often our follow-up is a test (nice eh?) to see if you are actually still liking us or if you are just trying to prove a point. Usually this is when a guy will respond along the lines of "well fine then, guess you are on your own." she thinks, "yeah he doesn't like me anymore." he thinks "why's she gotta bitch about everything?"

 

93% of women complaining (I am convinced) is "do you like me still? Do you like me still?" "why not? Why not? Why not?"

 

When we are first in love, we ignore a lot of dumb stuff about our guys because we like them and they act like they like us. When a guy stops acting like they like us as much and fails those little tests, we really start to resent them. We pull back on all fronts, mostly so you'll go "oh hey, I need to like her a little more so I get that attention I like." but you guys aren't attention-based in the same way.

 

When you say, " can you have sex with me and clean the house?" you mean it. You want function to feel connection.

 

She needs connection in order to provide you with function, she figures if she is tired from cleaning the house and doesn't want to have sex, she can get you a card to show you that she still loves you and you should be fine for a bit.

 

LOL. way to piss a guy off right? You ask for a, she gives you b and act like you are unreasonable. We see the world through a lens that is baffling to you guys.

 

Ha Ha sexual dynamics suck.

[ladydesigner]

Control tends to be a male interpretation of a different female trait.

 

You are staring directly at anxiety and lack of security.

This was me!

 

Bet my life savings on it. Someone is very, very fearful and isn't going about it the right way at all.

 

Oddly enough, when women get that wrenching and fearful they tend to be married to men who fear being pushed around and shamed.

 

Then, they get left alone by such men, increasing their anxiety and round it goes until things worsen.

 

Bet my life's savings.

 

Don't think I have taken a side. I just know the game, seen it about a thousand times.

 

What a great post DOT. I have been enjoying reading this thread. I know my withholding affection led to m H's A's, no doubt about that, but I felt emotionally abandoned far before I started to withhold. I didn't quite understand the term "withholding" at the time I just knew I was not attracted to my H or emotionally connected to want to have sex with him and so went our downward spiral.

 

He had me believing that I was a non-sexual person, hell I even felt non-sexual at the time, just had a baby and he was out and about at all hours of the day and night avoiding me and new fatherhood. I was abandoned. Then he would want sex and I wouldn't be in the mood:rolleyes: He wasn't contributing financially, we had some other issues I cannot discuss because of TMI but real life stressors that would probably shake most marital foundations.

 

It wasn't until his A's that I became enraged and I went on my own tirade and had myself an A. Guess what... I felt sexual again. I felt attracted to someone else again. I was getting my emotional needs met, but not in a morally correct way.

 

Today I am focusing on my M and my H. We have been having more sex and I have been enjoying the sex as is he. We are reconnecting again emotionally and physically day by day. He is participating as a parent more and is financially contributing as much as myself if not more.

 

I am thankful for the shift that occurred in our M, otherwise we would still be miserable or possibly divorced. It took BOTH of us to make it work. BOTH of us communicating better and no more resenting the other. I always ask my H how I can be a better spouse and he in turn does the same. We have a constant checks and balances of our M now.

[dreamingoftigers]

yet people still get fired, layed off, "downsized"...which is why....

 

 

 

...I dont think this would be all that effective....because marriage, like professions and everything else...changes; and you may no longer be on the same page as before

 

It would however be refreshing to have people touch the aspects of marriage nobody typically touches these days

 

I think marriage needs to be run a bit more like the other areas of life, there are certain skills etc that make you successful in all other areas that seem to apply into marriage too. The biggest one being how to manage conflict. Most people manage conflict very differently at work or with friends then they do at home. Home becomes a really easy dumping ground.

 

I have cleaned houses for a living for awhile now. You know what I notice about more successful (and often rich families). They DO NOT dump on each other. They let the **** roll down hill. Interesting I think.

[StoneCold]

DOT

 

So in other words what you are saying is....women are far too complicated and almost not worth the aggrivation when you get to close to them...

 

so keep them at arms length; you can be friendly with tem, have sex and the whole 9 yards but dont get too close and certainly DO NOT commit to them...

 

This explains why all the players I know are so much happier than the "family men".

 

Good grief....my marriage falls apart I'm buying a bachelor pad, a 911 turbo (not because I need a nice car to get girls...simply because it makes me happy) and I'm changing GFs every 6 months and keeping a handful of FWBs to fill in the gaps.

 

Lifes too damn short

Edited August 17, 2011 by StoneCold

[dreamingoftigers]

DOT

 

So in other words what you are saying is....women are far too complicated and almost not worth the aggrivation when you get to close to them...

 

so keep them at arms length; you can be friendly with tem, have sex and the whole 9 yards but dont get too close and certainly DO NOT commit to them...

 

This explains why all the players I know are so much happier than the "family men".

 

Good grief....my marriage falls apart I'm buying a bachelor pad, a 911 turbo (not because I need a nice car to get girls...simply because it makes me happy) and I'm changing GFs every 6 months and keeping a handful of FWBs to fill in the gaps.

 

Lifes too damn short

 

Wow, trying to fill the void much? LOL.

 

No we are not complicated. You are slow. Ha ha.

 

We are actually not anywhere near as complicated as men would like to believe we are. We just don't think the same way, but once you crack the code it is easy street.

 

Guys just don't crack the code very often because patience isn't your strong suit.

 

And you guys actually overload emotionally (thanks to cortisol) far more easily.

 

I always thought it was funny how guys historically could go out, fight wars, plow a field all day, lift heavy stuff, chop off other people's arms and stuff or get their arms chopped off, do hard labor and be just fine.

 

Then go home to their wives who are 50 lbs less then them and a lot tinier and all she has to say is, "we need to talk. You don't appreciate me."

 

And all of a sudden Super-Man has been hit with his Kryptonite.

 

I really think that if the US was serious about winning it's wars, they would train women to go over and tell the Al-Qaeda men how they never do anything right, they could've got more casualties then that, and how they are such a disappointment. Al-Qaeda would quit and go home in no time.

 

In Iraq, they could set up speakers of women sharing their feelings non-stop and play Romantic Comedies on the palace walls until the Iraqi men begged the siege to end. 2 weeks max.

[xxoo]

When a guy stops acting like they like us as much and fails those little tests, we really start to resent them. We pull back on all fronts, mostly so you'll go "oh hey, I need to like her a little more so I get that attention I like." but you guys aren't attention-based in the same way..

 

That reminds me of one of my favorite jokes: The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

Can't imagine why that doesn't work!

 

But men have their own brand of "beating" that is equally relationship destroying. And it takes a lot of guts and grace for a person of either sex to push through a perceived slight and reach out to reconnect. Marriage means doing just that, over and over again.

[dreamingoftigers]

True enough, true enough.

 

The men-beatings are them leaving us "alone but

Married."

 

I have come to realize in my own situation that I have given my husband the beat-down (trust me this is no ticket to "let's stay together forever, you don't have to work on anything" Land.)

 

Realizing that aspect of things I have been doing my part to minimize that. As screwed-up as he is, he has been responding mostly kindly to me since. If I want something from him, I try to shoot really straight and narrow. Mostly I just do my stuff myself.

 

I in no way think that the damage that has been done to our marriage is equal. I also know he doesn't believe that either. BUT the toxicity needs to stop anyways. I already know I can make him emotionally black and blue if I want to. But so what? I already know he has treated me extremely poorly. What's making him black and blue gonna do besides more damage?

 

I've decided to take this time to better learn how to manage conflict on a, shall we say, steep learning curve. He tests me. But now I have a pretty good feeling when that is coming. I can usually tell by my own physiological reaction when he is going to strike. Something really triggers it for him.

 

Guys seem to be really triggered by a woman's anxiety IMHO. Must be instinctual, protective. Something like that.

 

I have made tue conscious decision nit to let resent dictate the course of my relationships. I am choosing to let those moments become learning experiences instead.