LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 What is wrong with a man showing consideration and initiating the behavior of a gentleman? Why are women lowering the standards of dating etiquette? We are left with the notion that a woman who has higher standards is an elitist or an entiltled princess. It is sad. It seems like women want men to be caveman and club them, and while dragging them by their split ends, pronounce, "you be mine woman."
Woggle Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Women share at least half the blame for the end of chivalry. Many men these days simply see no positive or benefit in being a gentlemen.
ptp Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Women share at least half the blame for the end of chivalry. Many men these days simply see no positive or benefit in being a gentlemen. +1 Woman want equality, they shouldn't complain when they get it.
DutchValhallaViking Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 What is wrong with a man showing consideration and initiating the behavior of a gentleman? Why are women lowering the standards of dating etiquette? We are left with the notion that a woman who has higher standards is an elitist or an entiltled princess. It is sad. It seems like women want men to be caveman and club them, and while dragging them by their split ends, pronounce, "you be mine woman." I do both...i treated my girlfriend like a princeses during the day, and like a slut during the night. My ex-GF loved it
Feelsgoodman Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Men no longer act like gentlemen because women no longer act like ladies. Something to think about...
Ruby Slippers Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 With the exception of one (when I was too young to know the difference), all my boyfriends have been gentlemen with traditional manners. I couldn't go back to anything less again.
Woggle Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Men no longer act like gentlemen because women no longer act like ladies. Something to think about... Very true. If women want a return to this sort of thing they need to do their part as well.
zengirl Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) What is wrong with a man showing consideration and initiating the behavior of a gentleman? Why are women lowering the standards of dating etiquette? We are left with the notion that a woman who has higher standards is an elitist or an entiltled princess. It is sad. It seems like women want men to be caveman and club them, and while dragging them by their split ends, pronounce, "you be mine woman." You would probably say I have "lower" standards, but I just see them as different standards. I don't want a guy to pull my chair out (not ANGRY about it, as that's stupid, but I definitely try to discourage it, as it makes me feel awkward and childish), and I think whoever gets to the door first should open it. And if the car has a remote-control lock pad, why should he come to my side? It's weird to me---unless he's coming over to steal a kiss first. Then, he can totally open my door. (ETA-FTR, the current BF does open the car door and try to beat me to doors so he can open them. And try to grab every check. And all these things, except the seat thing which he knows I dislike. But I don't think he'd like it if he thought I "expected" him to. And I'd rather open the door for HIM if I get there first than stand there, waiting.) I don't want to be treated like a creature to be "taken care of" --- which is where I think these manners come from. Now, this is not to paint a portrait of some angry lady who hates when men do this (the chair thing does bother me, but again, not mad about it; I'll appreciate the thought even though it isn't my thing) or anything. It just seems bizarre to me. I think people should take care of each other, so if I get to the door first, why should I wait for him to open it? I can hold it for him just as well. When it comes to something truly heavy (I totally let my BF carry my luggage a couple weeks ago and appreciated his offer!) or helping me with something that's not in my skill box (networking my TV and computers altogether, which would've taken me a lot longer to figure out), I definitely appreciate thoughtful gestures, and I'll do the same with the things I'm best suited for or when he needs someone to pick him up at the airport or watch his dog or whatever. But both of us can easily sit down in chairs and open doors. It really just depends on your mindset. I understand women and men are different, but they're not THAT different. And then you look at, say, gay relationships. What do they do? Do lesbians just stand outside of doors forever? Do gay men arm-wrestle to see who opens them? At some point, can't we just be people. "The era of the gentleman" came with a lot of things --- like few jobs for women and sexual harassment in the workplace (and that was in the later years! Before that, we got to be chattel; doesn't sound like fun for me even if I never have to open a door!) --- that are pretty terrible. Can't we all just be nice and good and kind to each other? Edited August 13, 2011 by zengirl
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Everyone is different, I am more inclined to figure out electronics, networking a tv, and other miscellaneous gadgets, myself. I would not expect someone to do that for me. It is a little contradictory that you would much rather have a man carry heavy luggage, than simply open a door for you. What if he thinks you packed it, you carry it. Seems to be the same mindset of that of a man who does not wish to do simple gestures of politeness.
zengirl Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) Everyone is different, I am more inclined to figure out electronics, networking a tv, and other miscellaneous gadgets, myself. I would not expect someone to do that for me. It is a little contradictory that you would much rather have a man carry heavy luggage, than simply open a door for you. What if he thinks you packed it, you carry it. Seems to be the same mindset of that of a man who does not wish to do simple gestures of politeness. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any of that stuff because he's a guy and can totally do it for myself, but I do think it's totally nice to offer. And I think if you're not doing nice things and actively looking to do nice things for your SO, you're being a bad partner (either gender). When a guy is carrying my luggage, he's doing it because he knows that I can't lift very heavy things. This is an objective truth. While I *can* lift my luggage, for me, it's a struggle anytime I have to pick it up (luckily it's on wheels, so I'm good). My BF lifted my carry-on with one hand. He is objectively stronger than I. Hence why it makes sense to let him carry it if he offers, and why it was polite for him to do so. If I'm traveling with my Grandma, I always try to get her luggage down for her. Because I'm stronger than she is. That was my point. If I were a big, strong gal, maybe I'd feel differently about the luggage. But it's like how if we go get groceries, he always gives me the lightest bag, because I have spaghetti arms. ETA: I guess that comes down to "if you see your SO struggling with something you could easily do, regardless of gender, of course you're a jerk if you don't help. It's like in Singles where he does open the car door (before remotes existed readily!) and then he waits to see if she passes the push-up-the-lock test. And she does! Because she's also trying to make HIS life easier. Opening a door. . . there's no difficulty in that for almost anyone. So whoever gets there first doing it seems about right to me. Edited August 13, 2011 by zengirl
PelicanPete Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 I'm not much of a traditional gentlemen because I see women as equals. Opening car doors, pulling out chairs, and throwing down a jacket over puddles seems silly to me in this day and age. "Gentlemen" originated because they were extra nice to women when most women were treated as lesser creatures then man, so pampering them was a sign of equality and respect. I feel like too much of a suck up doing that religiously with a woman I fancy. It makes me feel more like a servant then a date. Sure sometimes its fun to go to a high class restaurant and practice those traditional custom, but not as an everyday practice. Why do I even read the dating forum I can feel my IQ dropping with every thread.
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any of that stuff because he's a guy and can totally do it for myself, but I do think it's totally nice to offer. And I think if you're not doing nice things and actively looking to do nice things for your SO, you're being a bad partner (either gender). When a guy is carrying my luggage, he's doing it because he knows that I can't lift very heavy things. This is an objective truth. While I *can* lift my luggage, for me, it's a struggle anytime I have to pick it up (luckily it's on wheels, so I'm good). My BF lifted my carry-on with one hand. He is objectively stronger than I. Hence why it makes sense to let him carry it if he offers, and why it was polite for him to do so. If I'm traveling with my Grandma, I always try to get her luggage down for her. Because I'm stronger than she is. That was my point. If I were a big, strong gal, maybe I'd feel differently about the luggage. But it's like how if we go get groceries, he always gives me the lightest bag, because I have spaghetti arms. ETA: I guess that comes down to "if you see your SO struggling with something you could easily do, regardless of gender, of course you're a jerk if you don't help. It's like in Singles where he does open the car door (before remotes existed readily!) and then he waits to see if she passes the push-up-the-lock test. And she does! Because she's also trying to make HIS life easier. Opening a door. . . there's no difficulty in that for almost anyone. So whoever gets there first doing it seems about right to me. You do not have to be a big strong gal to be fit, and able to lift heavy objects. It is a nice gesture, if he wishes to carry your luggage, but hopefully it is because of good manners, and not because he sees you as weak, and unfit to carry heavier objects.
OpenBook Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Men no longer act like gentlemen because women no longer act like ladies. Something to think about... Duly noted, and quite fair. I am aware of the Decline of the Gentleman, but I don't think he's dead yet. There are many men out there who still want & attempt to be The Gentleman. I try to make an extra effort to express appreciation for these Gents who open doors for me and other gallant gestures. I know it's not easy for them to continue such classy (and sexy, in my mind!!:love:) behavior when there are those who will step all over them.
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 I'm not much of a traditional gentlemen because I see women as equals. Opening car doors, pulling out chairs, and throwing down a jacket over puddles seems silly to me in this day and age. "Gentlemen" originated because they were extra nice to women when most women were treated as lesser creatures then man, so pampering them was a sign of equality and respect. I feel like too much of a suck up doing that religiously with a woman I fancy. It makes me feel more like a servant then a date. Sure sometimes its fun to go to a high class restaurant and practice those traditional custom, but not as an everyday practice. Why do I even read the dating forum I can feel my IQ dropping with every thread. I have fond memories of a man who did just that, threw his nice suit jacket over a puddle for me, so sweet and romantic. Swoon.
zengirl Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 You do not have to be a big strong gal to be fit, and able to lift heavy objects. It is a nice gesture, if he wishes to carry your luggage, but hopefully it is because of good manners, and not because he sees you as weak, and unfit to carry heavier objects. As I said, I hope it's because he sees me struggling with it and wants me not to have to struggle, personally. Or because he knows I've had a long flight, and he's feeling fresh and rested. I always prefer there to be an actual reason behind doing things, rather than relying on "It's what my Momma taught me," but that's just me. And I am fit, but I'm teeny. I do work out, but I'm no body builder. I'm never going to be able to lift heavy objects easily, and I'm totally okay with that. I can do the things I need to do (including carry my luggage, though with some difficulty) and if I need something spectacularly heavy moved, I'll pay someone to do it! But everyone should want to help the people they care about out, was my point. The doors and chairs things just seem like empty gestures to me.
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 I have fond memories of a man who did just that, threw his nice suit jacket over a puddle for me, so sweet and romantic. Swoon. It is also nice when a man offers you his dress coat or jacket when he sees that you are cold.
zengirl Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 It is also nice when a man offers you his dress coat or jacket when he sees that you are cold. That one, I like. It's practical. He's actually helping out with a potential need.
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 As I said, I hope it's because he sees me struggling with it and wants me not to have to struggle, personally. Or because he knows I've had a long flight, and he's feeling fresh and rested. I always prefer there to be an actual reason behind doing things, rather than relying on "It's what my Momma taught me," but that's just me. And I am fit, but I'm teeny. I do work out, but I'm no body builder. I'm never going to be able to lift heavy objects easily, and I'm totally okay with that. I can do the things I need to do (including carry my luggage, though with some difficulty) and if I need something spectacularly heavy moved, I'll pay someone to do it! But everyone should want to help the people they care about out, was my point. The doors and chairs things just seem like empty gestures to me. It was the use of the words spagetti arms, made me think of weak, skinny-fat, but it is nice if it is done more for politeness, than because he sees you unfit to lift luggage.
zengirl Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 It was the use of the words spagetti arms, made me think of weak, skinny-fat, but it is nice if it is done more for politeness, than because he sees you unfit to lift luggage. Ah. Spaghetti arms to me mean very thin arms = very little muscle, very little fat, and small frame. I like it better if it's done out of caring and a pragmatic understanding of our individual strengths and weaknesses more than politeness or habit. . . that's my point. I'm not sure why you're posing some false dichotomy where him being able to lift things easier somehow makes him think "badly" of me OR he's polite. I'd say. . . hopefully neither, and he just likes making things easier for me. I like making things easier for him too!
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Ah. Spaghetti arms to me mean very thin arms = very little muscle, very little fat, and small frame. I like it better if it's done out of caring and a pragmatic understanding of our individual strengths and weaknesses more than politeness or habit. . . that's my point. I'm not sure why you're posing some false dichotomy where him being able to lift things easier somehow makes him think "badly" of me OR he's polite. I'd say. . . hopefully neither, and he just likes making things easier for me. I like making things easier for him too! He is being polite in that he sees you uncomfortable and struggling with heavy objects, men are creatures of habit, and he is most likely doing it out of politeness, habit, while being caring and with a pragmatic understanding.
ptp Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) I have fond memories of a man who did just that, threw his nice suit jacket over a puddle for me, so sweet and romantic. Swoon. How is that romantic? That is just plain dumb you are ruining a perfectly good suit. If I was in that position I would either walk around or I would lift up my GF and walk her across the puddle. Edited August 13, 2011 by ptp
Pierre Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 One should be a gentleman to all. That includes other men, old people, friends, and dates. Being a gentleman only to your female date is not what a true gentleman does.
Author LoveandSuch Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 How is that romantic? That is just plain dumb you are ruining a perfectly good suit. If I was in that position I would either walk around or I would lift up my GF and walk her across the puddle. I have been lifted too. Swoon:) He had many more jackets and we were having so much fun running from the unexpected downpour and already had a such a blast on the date, the coat thing, was done mostly out of good nature and fun.
PratyekaYana Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 One should be a gentleman to all. That includes other men, old people, friends, and dates. Being a gentleman only to your female date is not what a true gentleman does. +1 Gentlemanly behavior speaks to virtue and should therefore be expressed universally. I don't, for example, believe in holding a door open for a woman on the sole basis that she is a woman, but I will gladly do such things based on the fact that she is another living being who is presumably deserving of my respect and courtesy.
Casablanca Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 It is also nice when a man offers you his dress coat or jacket when he sees that you are cold. Ive done that
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