Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 Well it is not just dinner, but they are dates. Besides, have you seen how much drinks cost at a nice bar in NYC? May as well eat for the same price if you pick the right restaurant. They aren't hookups, I just am not that excited until I know the person well enough to be excited about seeing them. A few conversations is not enough for that. Than why don't just keep it simple? This really isn't rocket science.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 \ the bottom line is if you don't want to spend YOUR money on a "stranger" than don't go to dinners or other things that you don't want to pay for. Go for a walk, or for coffee until you know someone better and their "paying for date" style. Gotta say you should like a cheapskate. Okay, I am a cheapskate and you are an entitled princess. See, we can both call each other names. How mature! I would rather spend my money in more worthwhile places. You can't take every date for coffee until you get to know them. Am I supposed to go on 3 or 4 coffee dates with every woman I speak to prior to buying them dinner. That would never happen. I minimize costs in my own way, but it is still ridiculous.
ptp Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 \ the bottom line is if you don't want to spend YOUR money on a "stranger" than don't go to dinners or other things that you don't want to pay for. Go for a walk, or for coffee until you know someone better and their "paying for date" style. Gotta say you should like a cheapskate. He sounds intelligent not cheap. I haven't seen one thing you have posted to make me change my opinion of you.
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 We can disagree here. I have no expectations on a first date other than I will meet a new person and get to know them. I am not hoping for anything until I know the girl better. I would hope that she would like to know me as well. We are mutually getting to know each other. I'm saying we all pay our own way and in many cultures you do so while dating as well. I think the whole concept that you pay for a woman is ridiculous. Especially in this day and age where she likely is dating others and picking from her options as are you. I have no issues paying for my gf (though she does not expect it and is okay with splitting dating costs) or my good friends as I have known them for decades and they are worth paying for. I think the whole American concept is upside down. It is treasuring a stranger over those closest to you. Aghh so it is a cultural issue. Cannot help you there. In the USA , in our culture, the man is expected to pay for the date. I would feel like a complete fool at the end of a date, if I and the man, were sitting there staring at the ceiling, both figuring out who is to pay. This entire topic is completely out there, people here seem to argue about every issue. Men pay for dates, simple.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 He sounds intelligent not cheap. I haven't seen one thing you have posted to make me change my opinion of you. I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion. I could really care less.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 Okay, I am a cheapskate and you are an entitled princess. See, we can both call each other names. How mature! I would rather spend my money in more worthwhile places. You can't take every date for coffee until you get to know them. Am I supposed to go on 3 or 4 coffee dates with every woman I speak to prior to buying them dinner. That would never happen. I minimize costs in my own way, but it is still ridiculous. Its my opinion and you can have yours. I'm ok with that.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Aghh so it is a cultural issue. Cannot help you there. In the USA , in our culture, the man is expected to pay for the date. I would feel like a complete fool at the end of a date, if I and the man, were sitting there staring at the ceiling, both figuring out who is to pay. This entire topic is completely out there, people here seem to argue about every issue. Men pay for dates, simple. Not in the way you suggest. I was born and raised in the US and have lived here my entire life. I just disagree with the cultural norm. Because it is tradition really does not fly with me as slavery was as well in this country at one time.
ptp Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion. I could really care less. I didn't say you were trying to change my opinion. I was just expressing my displeasure with your posts. You draw conclusions about other people's relationships based on assumptions without knowing anything about them, you come off as very judgmental and call people cheap.
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Not in the way you suggest. I was born and raised in the US and have lived here my entire life. I just disagree with the cultural norm. Because it is tradition really does not fly with me as slavery was as well in this country at one time. The issue of slavery and if a man should pay on a date is breaking the rules of debate. The subjects are completely and insanely irrelevant to one another. Next!!!!!
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 I didn't say you were trying to change my opinion. I was just expressing my displeasure with your posts. ok, cool.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 The issue of slavery and if a man should pay on a date is breaking the rules of debate. The subjects are completely and insanely irrelevant to one another. Next!!!!! No kidding, Talk about going to the extreme.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 The issue of slavery and if a man should pay on a date is breaking the rules of debate. The subjects are completely and insanely irrelevant to one another. Next!!!!! Yes I know that. The point of the comparison was that stating that something is a cultural/social norm is not enough to justify it. This country is about questioning and redefining our norms. That is progress. It why the constitution is a living document and we are able to amend it. The gravity of the norm need not make a difference.
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Yes I know that. The point of the comparison was that stating that something is a cultural/social norm is not enough to justify it. This country is about questioning and redefining our norms. That is progress. It why the constitution is a living document and we are able to amend it. The gravity of the norm need not make a difference. I have already sensed the point here. You are dating a large number of women and do not want to spend all your money on dates. You also mentioned the reason why you do not want to spend the money, is that you are not all that interested in many of your dating prospects. So you just heightened the point of my argument. Women do not go on a date, when the man is expecting you to pay, it means he is just not that into you or he has 20 other dates or potentials lined up from match.com or somewhere! Thank you for clarifying my point, entirely!
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I have already sensed the point here. You are dating a large number of women and do not want to spend all your money on dates. You also mentioned the reason why you do not want to spend the money, is that you are not all that interested in many of your dating prospects. So you just heightened the point of my argument. Women do not go on a date, when the man is expecting you to pay, it means he is just not that into you or he has 20 other dates or potentials lined up from match.com or somewhere! Thank you for clarifying my point, entirely! Lol, this is correct women. Do not date men that are highly eligible. Date the men no one else wants. Or, better yet, the ones who want to marry you prior to a first date. They are highly interested after all. You don't want to have to compete with others for a man's attention. Then you might have to even ask the guy out and pay for his dinner to get his attention, the horror! Edited August 10, 2011 by Sanman
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Lol, this is correct women. Do not date men that are highly eligible. Date the men no one else wants. Or, better yet, the ones who want to marry you prior to a first date. They are highly interested after all. You don't want to have to compete with others for a man's attention. Then you might have to even ask the guy out and pay for his dinner to get his attention, the horror! Next!!!! No one with dignity wants to be part of your dating cess pool. And no, woman do not want to COMPETE for a man's attention, you have some sort of role reversal issue, just go grow a pair of tits, or man up!
rafallus Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Originally Posted by CatNtheHat Well prior to going on the date, he mentioned the restaurant we went to, and I knew of the particular place being kind of expensive. I don't seafood, or costly dinners. Not really my thing. But I did tell him I knew of it to be more on the fine dining end. He said he wanted to go there and that he would take care of it. My dinner ended up costing like 15 bucks all together. He got lobster and a few cocktails, and it came to like more than triple my dinner. But since he didn't have money, I forget what his pathetic excuse was, I paid. That explains all. I would say that it was a male equivalent of infamous "females with entitlement complex".
zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 These threads always go so well. FTR, the OP had nothing to do with the old, tired, beaten to death, "who pays on a first date?" argument. It was about a relationship.
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I'm preparing myself for the backlash I'm gonna get for asking this question, but I really am curious. What is wrong with a man wanting to "take care of" his woman? Now I guess "take care of" could mean several things, whether its pay the living expenses, or pay for all the dates, or take her on trips, etc. If a man makes good money and is successful and WANTS to do this, what is wrong with that? Why is there such hatred for it? Are men that can't afford to do this, jealous? I mean if you make good money and don't think you should, than thats fine and great, its your money and your decision. You should live how you want to. I'm talking about the men that WANT to. Sometimes even women want to do this for the man in their life. I just don't understand why so many people are angry about it. I think the women on the receiving end get the most backlash. But it is HER life. Do what you wanna do with your life, but why be so opinionated of the way someone else lives? It would make me feel like property. If this is the primary way the man I may be interested in needs to show his feelings for me, I'm not interested. What happens if/when the money is gone? or he loses that fabulous job? What then?? I've seen too many people invest their self worth in material things, only to have it blow up in their face somewhere down the road. Can't say what your friend's thoughts might be... perhaps it gets annoying hearing about all the stuff you are enjoying through someone else's labors... and making it sound like you are so special. Maybe some of your friends actually have to work for a living?? I wouldn't call it envy or jealousy... if you are waving it around, it might come off as obnoxious or showing off. That would certainly annoy me... I'm a vegetarian, but I don't talk about animal cruelty in factory farms while my friends are digging into their steaks. Nor do they say "Moo!" when they chomp down.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Next!!!! No one with dignity wants to be part of your dating cess pool. And no, woman do not want to COMPETE for a man's attention, you have some sort of role reversal issue, just go grow a pair of tits, or man up! I will let my gf and all the women I have dated know they have no dignity. You can continue to date in your backwards hick town. Enjoy all the losers who are willing to cater to you. Maybe one of them will have a full set of teeth and a vocabulary that consists of something more than the words on a bud light label. See I can do that too. Isn't mocking and stereotyping fun children?!? I have no role reversal issue. I simply believe in less traditional roles and feel no need to fulfill the traditional male role in the same way the women I date feel no need to fulfill the traditional female gender role.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 when will it all end??? Well, we all have to die sooner or later, right? :laugh: It's the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends....
Tayla Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I don't know anyone that pays for their "friends". I mean maybe if its a bday or something special thats different. As idealistic as this sounds for some, I really do consider my significant other, my FRIEND, so yeah there are moments other then birthdays or special occassion where a gesture of goodwill in picking up the tab is accomodated. I stand by and have lived by "neither a borrower or lender be" and it works well. I do not borrow my friends for things or lend them grief or misfortune, instead I find that most adults that I convene with are all the wiser for being financially independent and NOT "expect" or carry the "SHOULD" pay for someone elses meal/bills/loans/medical/gas/insurance/light bills or any of that. (augh run or sentences! ) . Anywhos, its best to work out what "tabs" be paid by whom prior when making a date or arrangement for an occassion. I have been BURNT many a time on buying concert tickets and then the night of the event the so called "friend" is tapped out and for weeks there after it caused a rift. So know upfront. I don't care if I am dating a millionaire (which I have) we stay where I can afford it and we travel where I can afford. Oddly enough this guy was cool with seeing how the other half lives, and odder still, couldnt beleive that somethings money cant buy! A beautiful sunset, a bike ride thru the countryside...Compliments of Mother Nature
ThsAmericanLife Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 why doesn't everyone just pay their own way when they go out, for god's sake? Noone would have to worry who is the man, who did the f-ing asking... is it a date? are we friends? What did he mean by that? Does she like me? What a load of crap...
Enchanted Girl Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No I got the point, I just making a statement about the modern woman. Women want equality until that equality actually is detrimental to them. Actually, you're just looking at women as a whole entity instead of individuals and assuming that all the parts they believe in that upset you are the only parts they care about. I know scores of women who want men to pay for them, but also believe that because they are a woman they are inferior in a relationship and need to be submissive and treated as a child. Most of them are religious. I also know women who like to pay and don't like to be submissive. I used to be submissive like that AND pay for everything in my relationship with my ex. And I know women who want men to pay and don't want to be submissive. There's a large variety of women out there. Just stay away from the ones that upset you. Maybe the majority of men on LS. Or maybe the majority of men see it that way when talking about hypothetical relationships. Ask a man in love about his relationship, and he's not going to talk much about sex (though I assume he's getting plenty) or money. They do it more subtly than that. By doing things like suddenly getting mad when a woman refuses to do something they want her to because they do all the work in the relationship (by making the money) and she does nothing supposedly. Or when she wants to get married and they panic because the woman does nothing because they make more money than her. I've seen it so many times in and out of this forum. Not to mention how self serving this brand of "taking care of" someone else really is. No one can promise they won't die in a car accident so what happens to their less capable partner and any children they have in the event of their untimely demise? Ah who cares? They will be dead and what happens after that is the problem of someone else. This is a true concern. A woman I know with three young children has been a housewife all her life and her husband died earlier this year. I haven't seen her much since, but I honestly worry about her a lot. See that is where you lose me and many other men. How many times have you asked out vs being asked out. I bet the number is not close to even. It is a straw man argument. When a friend asks you out, do you expect them to pay for you? When you go out with a friend for dinner, do you try to sleep with them afterwards? XD Yea, don't compare romance and friendships. They are two totally different things. And yes, I have paid for my friends ways when going out to dinner with them. If I want to go out to dinner and they have no money and I do, then why not? It was my idea and its a nice gesture and they pay me back with their company. I don't know if men pay because you agree to go out or not.. that seems a bit weird, maybe your thought is getting lost in your words some.. I always paid for dates because I wanted to put my best foot forward and that is a start on being gentlemanly... so is opening doors and planning the night out.. Courting a woman seems to be lost in today's generation.. Look at some of the bitter guys out there.. they haven't a clue what it takes to court and land a woman but they complain that it should be equal and that is crazy.. life/love/marriage isn't equal and we all play roles.. we just have to know what roles to play in order to be happy an successful in our relationships. True that relationships aren't equal and its usually the entitled people who do all the tallying. My ex always tallied EVERYTHING in our relationship. If he felt like he had to sacrifice anything, even if it was time with friends on our anniversary or my birthday or when I asked him to do something I wanted to do, he had to make sure that *I* first had sacrificed enough in the relationship before he agreed to do anything. Every time I asked him for anything, he basically punished me. I agree that people should leave relationships where they are being used, but expecting things to be equal is impossible and stupid. Most of us miss all the sacrifices our partners do, so there's no way to tally things up correctly anyway. And once you do start tallying things, then all the love you have for the person disappears from the act. I look my boyfriend out earlier this year to a restaurant that cost me $100 when the bill came. I encouraged him to order a steak when I paid for it and I did not tally up everything he's paid for related to me before I took him out to dinner. I did it because I love him. Anyway, I don't have an idealized view about men needing to court women. In fact, I don't even think the costs of going out should be "fair." I think whoever has the money should be the one to pay regardless of who that is and/or how many times they may or may not have paid in the past. And if it needs to be discussed beforehand then its better to do it then than spring it on them on the date. But yes, you are right about what you say about it costing a lot for women to spruce themselves up for a date. Just getting my nails done can cost me as much as sixty dollars! Okay, I am a cheapskate and you are an entitled princess. See, we can both call each other names. How mature! I would rather spend my money in more worthwhile places. You can't take every date for coffee until you get to know them. Am I supposed to go on 3 or 4 coffee dates with every woman I speak to prior to buying them dinner. That would never happen. I minimize costs in my own way, but it is still ridiculous. You'd rather spend your money on more worthwhile places? =/ While I agree with you that men don't necessarily need to always pay, I think its offensive that you think that women are not worthwhile under any circumstances to be paid for. Part of being in a relationship and dating means you're eventually going to have to give parts of yourself to other people. The easiest way to stay selfish is to remain alone.
musemaj11 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Well, it depends on what you mean by "take care of." Frankly, I totally understand the frustration about double standards (I'm a woman) on the part of some guys here. I can imagine that it would be completely frustrating to feel obligated to "take care of" your partner in a traditional, paying-the-dinner-bill way, while she's not "taking care of" you in a traditional, cleaning-the-house way. That leads to an unfair balance of responsibilities and a lot of confusion about one's role. Personally, I'd axe all those traditions and the traditional roles. They don't suit me, and I'm perfectly happy with societal progress away from them toward individual responsibility, and with the idea that each person in a partnership bring their best to the relationship, without delineating what that "best" is based on an X or Y chromosome. But I have to agree with the idea that it's unfair to pick and choose among traditional gender roles. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with a couple choosing to lead their lives one way or another, per se - just that it ought to be fairly balanced so that both partners feel equally taken care of. I'm not saying you're doing that, OP - just that I understand the frustration. The voice of reason. You cannot be an American woman, are you?
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