serial muse Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 You missed the point, its not about HAVING to, its men that WANT to. If you don't want to that is fine for you. I think the thing that rubbed people the wrong way about that comment, though, is that when you had to pay for the guy, you did resent it. But it sounds - I don't know if this is what you actually mean - like you're saying that in future you will always expect the guy to pay. That's no more fair than the other way around, you see? If he offers, then that's something different. But what you said is that you'd expect him to or decide he's not worth dating, and that's what's getting people riled up. Put yourself, for a sec, in a potential new guy's shoes. You're on a date, and he learns that this is how you see things? Mightn't he feel just as you did, with the guys that forgot their wallets? That, in fact, he is obligated to pay, not because he wants to, because you want him to? It's like he's been voluntold.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No I meant broke as in he can't even buy himself a bagel, because he spent it all the previous night on booze and cigarettes. No one told you to pay for your ex-bf. That is not equal. Not one man here suggested he wanted a woman to pay for him for it to be fair. Some of us just don't want to go back to paying for a broke gf
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 I think the thing that rubbed people the wrong way about that comment, though, is that when you had to pay for the guy, you did resent it. But it sounds - I don't know if this is what you actually mean - like you're saying that in future you will always expect the guy to pay. That's no more fair than the other way around, you see? No I won't always expect a man to pay. But I don't think there will be any other men, in my case. I think its important to find out the financial style of a person you are going on a date with. If a man asks out a woman, I do think he should be the one to pay. There have been times, I have gone dutch, and thats fine with me.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 No one told you to pay for your ex-bf. That is not equal. Not one man here suggested he wanted a woman to pay for him for it to be fair. Some of us just don't want to go back to paying for a broke gf He wasn't an ex, it was just a date. He asked me out and planned the date, than when the bill came he didn't have any money. So I had to pay for it. I didn't go out with him again.
rafallus Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No I meant broke as in he can't even buy himself a bagel, because he spent it all the previous night on booze and cigarettes. And I meant to say "they were", as in that was hypothetical. Expressed my question incorrectly. But question still stands: What about a man, who doesn't believe in wine-and-dine, but isn't broke? These are not mutually exclusive things as far, as I can tell you.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 And I meant to say "they were", as in that was hypothetical. Expressed my question incorrectly. But question still stands: What about a man, who doesn't believe in wine-and-dine, but isn't broke? These are not mutually exclusive things as far, as I can tell you. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Its HIS money.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 He wasn't an ex, it was just a date. He asked me out and planned the date, than when the bill came he didn't have any money. So I had to pay for it. I didn't go out with him again. So you're this pissed about one date? Do you know how many dinners the average guy pays for that don't get a call back? This is routine business for many guys dating.
sally4sara Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I'm preparing myself for the backlash I'm gonna get for asking this question, but I really am curious. What is wrong with a man wanting to "take care of" his woman? Now I guess "take care of" could mean several things, whether its pay the living expenses, or pay for all the dates, or take her on trips, etc. If a man makes good money and is successful and WANTS to do this, what is wrong with that? Why is there such hatred for it? Are men that can't afford to do this, jealous? I mean if you make good money and don't think you should, than thats fine and great, its your money and your decision. You should live how you want to. I'm talking about the men that WANT to. Sometimes even women want to do this for the man in their life. I just don't understand why so many people are angry about it. I think the women on the receiving end get the most backlash. But it is HER life. Do what you wanna do with your life, but why be so opinionated of the way someone else lives? Wrong with it? Well if he wants that and he has a partner that also wants that there is nothing wrong about it FOR THEM. To me though, usually when on person feels better about themselves by their partner being fully dependent on them for their basic needs it goes hand in hand with wanting to feel like they own their partner. The moment their partner does something they would rather they didn't do the same old phrase gets tossed around "with everything I do for you, you should....". How can anyone who genuinely and benevolently wants to live this way toss a line like that out there and not realize they don't simply want to "take care" of their partner so much as they want to control them? Notice you term it taking care of HIS WOMAN? This same lifestyle can be going on with the genders reversed and its no different yet you qualify it with traditional roles and the set up still perpetuates the concept that the one earning the money owns the one that doesn't earn the money. Neither do I think too highly of someone who actively seeks a less capable person as a partner. Its like an average intelligence person surrounding themselves with people who have brain damage just so they can pretend to be a genius. Not to mention how self serving this brand of "taking care of" someone else really is. No one can promise they won't die in a car accident so what happens to their less capable partner and any children they have in the event of their untimely demise? Ah who cares? They will be dead and what happens after that is the problem of someone else.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No I won't always expect a man to pay. But I don't think there will be any other men, in my case. I think its important to find out the financial style of a person you are going on a date with. If a man asks out a woman, I do think he should be the one to pay. There have been times, I have gone dutch, and thats fine with me. See that is where you lose me and many other men. How many times have you asked out vs being asked out. I bet the number is not close to even. It is a straw man argument. When a friend asks you out, do you expect them to pay for you?
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Not a thing wrong with a man wanting to spend money on his woman. It is wrong if he is expecting something in return for this decision of his. If he takes advantage of the fact and treats the woman with verbal attacks or mistreatment because he feels he is top dog, then it is not a healthy balance. I will have nice things regardless, because I splurge on myself, if he wants to match it, great, if not, that is okay too. I work, but just because a woman stays home, does not mean she is not working, thinking children and such. Have a man stay home and care for 3 children and see how fast he will be begging to go back to his stressful job! I view it more as hang ups. I do not want a relationship with anyone who has hang ups or stupid misconceptions of women, period.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 So you're this pissed about one date? Do you know how many dinners the average guy pays for that don't get a call back? This is routine business for many guys dating. Well prior to going on the date, he mentioned the restaurant we went to, and I knew of the particular place being kind of expensive. I don't seafood, or costly dinners. Not really my thing. But I did tell him I knew of it to be more on the fine dining end. He said he wanted to go there and that he would take care of it. My dinner ended up costing like 15 bucks all together. He got lobster and a few cocktails, and it came to like more than triple my dinner. But since he didn't have money, I forget what his pathetic excuse was, I paid.
zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 See that is where you lose me and many other men. How many times have you asked out vs being asked out. I bet the number is not close to even. It is a straw man argument. When a friend asks you out, do you expect them to pay for you? I always go into a date expecting to pay for myself (and almost never actually wind up doing so in an early date, because the fellow insists----as my BF still does quite frequently), but I would suggest NO ONE of either gender go out with someone again if they were too broke to pay for his or herself when the bill came, unless there were major extenuating circumstances (like the other person chose the place, and it was known that it'd be out of the person's price range, etc). Who brings no money on a date?
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 See that is where you lose me and many other men. How many times have you asked out vs being asked out. I bet the number is not close to even. It is a straw man argument. When a friend asks you out, do you expect them to pay for you? Actually I did online dating for about 1 year, and I asked out a few guys and If I was the one to ask them out, I expected to pay. There were some men that were insulted when I went to pay for the check and insisted they pay, but there were a few that let me as well. A friend? no. I don't have male friends. And if your asking for female friends, thats ridiculous, because we are not going out with the intention of dating.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I always go into a date expecting to pay for myself (and almost never actually wind up doing so in an early date, because the fellow insists----as my BF still does quite frequently), but I would suggest NO ONE of either gender go out with someone again if they were too broke to pay for his or herself when the bill came, unless there were major extenuating circumstances (like the other person chose the place, and it was known that it'd be out of the person's price range, etc). Who brings no money on a date? Agreed. As you know, (since this topic NEVER comes up on LS ). I generally don't opt for a second date with someone who doesn't at least offer to split it.
donnamaybe Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 she wont though. shell be cheating on him with another man. Well, by golly, I think I've pinpointed your problem. Every man on the planet has GOT to be somehow better than you if you think every single woman is gonna be cheating with some other guy. Have you stopped for a moment to think that maybe you're just impossible to get along with? Granted, that doesn't give someone license to sneak around on you, but that would account for why the women in your life don't seem to care about your feelings.
serial muse Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Well prior to going on the date, he mentioned the restaurant we went to, and I knew of the particular place being kind of expensive. I don't seafood, or costly dinners. Not really my thing. But I did tell him I knew of it to be more on the fine dining end. He said he wanted to go there and that he would take care of it. My dinner ended up costing like 15 bucks all together. He got lobster and a few cocktails, and it came to like more than triple my dinner. But since he didn't have money, I forget what his pathetic excuse was, I paid. OK, well that was a jerk move on his part. He should have been in the kitchen washing dishes. I think it does get confusing, with the "who pays" thing, and I don't think there's an easy solution - I understand Sanman's point, that in general the guy gets stuck with the check because far more often than not, the guy does the asking out. But. I have also seen many threads on here where guys say that they flat-out interpret a woman reaching for the check as a sign of no interest. And, in fact, many women do intend it as a sign of no interest. It's just that some don't. So it's very confusing for both men and women to know what to do. The bottom line comes down to expectation. Since you made it clear to that guy that you couldn't afford to eat at that place, and he made it clear ahead of time that he'd pay for it, what he did is clearly wrong, by stiffing you. But that's an extreme case.
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Actually I did online dating for about 1 year, and I asked out a few guys and If I was the one to ask them out, I expected to pay. There were some men that were insulted when I went to pay for the check and insisted they pay, but there were a few that let me as well. A friend? no. I don't have male friends. And if your asking for female friends, thats ridiculous, because we are not going out with the intention of dating. A few guys you approached... how many women do you think approach the average guy if he does not ask them out? It is qualifying one antiquated tradition with another. Male or female friend does not matter. That is the point of equality. If a friend would not pay for you, why expect a stranger to do so? The assumption is that you two are getting to know each other, correct? Personally, I rather (and I have) pay for pleasure of dinner with a friend rather than for a woman I will likely never speak to again.
LoveandSuch Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 A man should pay for your first date at least! Sorry, people can slam me all they want, I would never pay for a date with a man unless, it became serious enough to debate such an issue or topic. No man with self respect should sit back and allow a woman to pay, that he is in pursuit of. I would never ask a man out either, but that is just me.
FitChick Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Are men that can't afford to do this, jealous? Yes, and so are women who can't get men like that.
sally4sara Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 A man should pay for your first date at least! Sorry, people can slam me all they want, I would never pay for a date with a man unless, it became serious enough to debate such an issue or topic. No man with self respect should sit back and allow a woman to pay, that he is in pursuit of. I would never ask a man out either, but that is just me. Then women who expect their meal to be paid for by someone else have no self respect? I suspected as much. Thanks for confirming.
serial muse Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Then women who expect their meal to be paid for by someone else have no self respect? I suspected as much. Thanks for confirming. Yeah, wow. I have to agree.
FitChick Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I see nothing wrong with it. I know a woman who owns a very profitable business, and she supports her long-term boyfriend, who is a low-earning professional musician. She definitely "wears the pants" in the relationship, but they both seem pretty happy with it, and have been together for years. Hmm, I wonder if you and I know the same people. In this particular instance, the man cheats -- perhaps to not feel emasculated, since the wife controls the money.
Author CatNtheHat Posted August 10, 2011 Author Posted August 10, 2011 A few guys you approached... how many women do you think approach the average guy if he does not ask them out? It is qualifying one antiquated tradition with another. Male or female friend does not matter. That is the point of equality. If a friend would not pay for you, why expect a stranger to do so? The assumption is that you two are getting to know each other, correct? Personally, I rather (and I have) pay for pleasure of dinner with a friend rather than for a woman I will likely never speak to again. That is fine for you. I wouldn't expect to pay for someone or expect them to pay for me if it wasn't with the intention of a romantic date. Different strokes.
zengirl Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Then women who expect their meal to be paid for by someone else have no self respect? I suspected as much. Thanks for confirming. The key issue here is "expectation." What is wrong with someone wanting to take care of someone else? Nothing. What's wrong with expecting someone to take care of you? Everything. (Unless you're a pet or small child.)
Sanman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 A man should pay for your first date at least! Sorry, people can slam me all they want, I would never pay for a date with a man unless, it became serious enough to debate such an issue or topic. No man with self respect should sit back and allow a woman to pay, that he is in pursuit of. I would never ask a man out either, but that is just me. No need to slam you, just inform me prior to the beginning of said date so I can rescind my invitation. Nothing annoys me more than a woman staring and the ceiling with a dumb smile on her face when the check comes.
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