Chi townD Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Marriage to you must be all about sex then. To me, marriage is about love. The answer to "why be married" is that the two people involved love each other and want to spend their lives together. Your position is essentially that sexual monogamy is more important than love, more important than affection, more important than friendship, more important than emotional support, more important than companionship, more important than coparenting, more important than everything else that a relationship might have and might mean to people who aren't you. Different people have different priorities and different needs and desires. Some people neither need nor desire monogamy, but do want to spend their lives in a meaningful emotional relationship with another person. You just want people to suffer, don't you? Most RELATIONSHIPS end up in splitsville. If we assume that the average monogamous person dates 10 people before getting married, then 90% of those relationships are failures. If half of all marriages end in divorce, then we can say that 95% of all monogamous relationships end. NINETY-FIVE PERCENT. 95% of monogamous relationships fail, and NO ONE ever blames the concept of monogamy for that. There's a real chance of the relationship ending no matter what they do. Ummm...my post was intended to be riddled with sarcasm and not to be looked at literally. Sorry you took it that way. I agree that a lot of relationships end up in splitsville; however, I'm focusing on one specific relationship demographic and that's couples that are involved in open marriages which the vast MAJORITY DO end up divorced.
John Bigboote Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Ummm...my post was intended to be riddled with sarcasm and not to be looked at literally. Sorry you took it that way. My bad then.
Try Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 If we assume that the average monogamous person dates 10 people before getting married, then 90% of those relationships are failures. If half of all marriages end in divorce, then we can say that 95% of all monogamous relationships end. NINETY-FIVE PERCENT. 95% of monogamous relationships fail, and NO ONE ever blames the concept of monogamy for that. There's a real chance of the relationship ending no matter what they do. You are using false logic by mixing relationship numbers with marriage numbers. Although "half of all marriages end in divorce" 95% of all open marriages end in divorce. Thus while 50% of all marriages do not end in divorce, only 5% of open marriages do not end in divorce. The numbers speak for themselves. When comparing open marriages to non-open marriages, your marriage is 10 time more likely to not end in divorce if you do not have an open marriage.
Lecturer Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 You are using false logic by mixing relationship numbers with marriage numbers. Although "half of all marriages end in divorce" 95% of all open marriages end in divorce. Thus while 50% of all marriages do not end in divorce, only 5% of open marriages do not end in divorce. The numbers speak for themselves. When comparing open marriages to non-open marriages, your marriage is 10 time more likely to not end in divorce if you do not have an open marriage. Do they? Do you have those stats? I haven't actually seen stats on open-marriage numbers, but I'd really like to see what the reality is. The only stats I know is that slightly more than 50% of marriages in the US end in divorce. But I'm being honest and impartial in my appeal for real stats. Let us also be aware of the danger of raw statistical data too. How a couple ends up in an open marriage matters quite a bit. If opening the marriage is the last gasp at saving a dying marriage, then maybe it's not fair to say that "it failed because it was an open marriage". That's like saying you shouldn't go to the hospital because a lot of people die after going to the hospital. I do think this is a good discussion, but I'm disappointed in the [inevitable] posts that are merely knee-jerk reactions because the concept offends the sensibilities of people. It may not apply to you, but that doesn't make it bad. I'm not gay, and maybe homosexual relationships have a lot of stress and lower long-term success (no idea), but I'm not going to claim that people shouldn't be gay or enter into homosexual relationships! They are different from me, and obviously things they want can't be discounted. I've researched polyamory and alternative relationship structures for a couple years now, and I still can't offer much definitive information on making a decision like this. I can agree that to be successful will require even more communication than traditional marriage does (which is a lot), and that both partners also need to possess either very good jealousy control or the capacity to enjoy compersion (as another poster mentioned - the joy you feel from loved ones experiencing joy)... or, ideally, both of these things. Also, how a couple comes into entering an open marriage has a heavy bearing on success too. If the couple are both polyamorous and the relationship is open from the start, then success is highest. If the couple mutually decide to open the marriage from a philosophical point of view, often not even exercising the 'open' aspect for years, then that is second highest. The least likely to succeed seems to be marriages that are opened as a result of infidelity - these usually have repressed resentment that carries forward and frequently sabotages the relationship.
Tech_E Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 I know it's been answered, but still it sticks in my craw. Sure marriage means different things to different people, but at it's fundamental core doesn't it mean a commitment to each other in body, spirit and mind? Maybe I am being naive but if you introduce third parties doesn't that bond become broken? To each their own but the concept just makes my skin crawl.
nyrias Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 If all you want is relationship with one person that allows you to have relationships together with other people....why even use the term marriage? Why not? It is just a word. You may as well call it cohabitation with the option for sex, and legal protection.
nyrias Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 I know it's been answered, but still it sticks in my craw. Sure marriage means different things to different people, but at it's fundamental core doesn't it mean a commitment to each other in body, spirit and mind? Maybe I am being naive but if you introduce third parties doesn't that bond become broken? To each their own but the concept just makes my skin crawl. An "open marriage" is not the same as the traditional one. So there is no reason why it mean a commitment to each other in body, spirit and the mind. Just like a "smart phone" is not the same as the traditional one, although there is some elements of commonality.
Chi townD Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Well Lecturer, I agree with what you're saying about opening up the marriage is, in most cases, putting a band-aid on a dying marriage. But what boggles the mind is why not go to marriage counseling instead of someone elses bed. I found a blog from a guy that when he first started it, him and his wife were EXTREMELY happy on the open lifestyle and started the blog to promote it. Here's his final blog: Open Divorce Wow. Well, it’s been nearly a year since “we” started this blog. I say “we” in quotes because Wife never did end up posting to it herself, only me. That was probably a sign right there. So, to recap: together nearly 19 years now, married nearly 16, “open” pretty much that whole time, with a few years of “don’t ask, don’t tell” at the outset but quickly becoming a full-on open marriage. Until shortly after we started this blog. Then everything came unglued. I don’t think the blog had much to do with it. But we’re moving into separate homes in the next two weeks and likely getting a divorce later this year. In our characteristically unorthodox approach, we’re determined to do our best to stay friends, but we’ll have to see how that works. What went wrong? Hard to say. Objectively, anyway. But since she’s never deigned to participated in this would-be joint blog project, I’ll give you my side of the story, in summary. I don’t mean to condemn open relationships as a lifestyle. We started this blog with every intension to be boosters for the idea. But in 20-20 hindsight, my conclusion, after months of therapy among other reflections, is that the open relationship in our case was a way to bandaid over a gap in our own relationship. To each his own, for sure — I should be the last to judge — but in my own life going forward, I’ve decided to give monogamy a try for a while. The whole thing is still surreal. I read back to [COLOR=#333333]my original post[/COLOR] here, just less than a year ago, on our wedding anniversary, where I claimed “we seem to be one of the happiest, most loving couples we know.” That’s certainly what we believed at the time. I also said in some subsequent posts that we weren’t in it only for the sex, but that we believe also in open love. Well, that turns out not to have been true for her. So, you maybe right about that band-aid. But since the PO has only one post, it leads me to believe that either this was a troll or the PO didn't like what she read. It didn't fit to what she thought people were going to say. So, this is more than likely a dead thread.
fltc Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 As I've posted here before, it's an oxymoron. If either or both of you have sex with someone who's not your spouse you've broken the marriage contract and it's now null and void, you no longer have a marriage. You can have an open relationship but there's no such thing as an "open marriage".
bentnotbroken Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Why not? It is just a word. You may as well call it cohabitation with the option for sex, and legal protection. It may be just a word to you and that is fine. My belief system is different so isn't just a word for me.
sally4sara Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 As I've posted here before, it's an oxymoron. If either or both of you have sex with someone who's not your spouse you've broken the marriage contract and it's now null and void, you no longer have a marriage. You can have an open relationship but there's no such thing as an "open marriage". As someone who has gone through a divorce I can assure you no legal marriage is so easy to get out of that you can accomplish it simply by sleeping with someone new. Would that it were! The word marriage just means to combine or blend. You do it when you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
Tech_E Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 An "open marriage" is not the same as the traditional one. So there is no reason why it mean a commitment to each other in body, spirit and the mind. Just like a "smart phone" is not the same as the traditional one, although there is some elements of commonality. Thank you for the afternoon chuckle, I'll give you that.... Quite the interesting comparison. You have your opinion and I have mine and they differ significantly on this. As I stated earlier the concept makes my skin crawl.
nyrias Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Thank you for the afternoon chuckle, I'll give you that.... Quite the interesting comparison. You have your opinion and I have mine and they differ significantly on this. As I stated earlier the concept makes my skin crawl. You don't get my point. I expressed NO opinion on open marriage. I merely say that it is just a "term", it can be defined as anything. "open marriage" is much shorter, and more efficient to say, than "cohabitation, with a legal marriage contract, but agree to have options of having sexual relationships with other people". This kind of arrangement needs a name to refer to .. open marriage is as good a name as any.
Severely Unamused Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I think I smell a troll... Amusing that this thread really took off. OP has two posts, both very subtly condescending in nature. Posting something like this on the infidelity forum, instead of the marriage and partnerships forum. Sheeeet. To stay on topic, I really have no strong feelings about it either way. Different strokes, to each his own, live and let live ect. I'm not a very traditional person, but the idea of an OR genuinely doesn't interest me. If another couple wants to try it...whatever. Take it slowly, make the preparations. Sometimes it blows up horribly, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's meshes perfect for the individual couple's attitude, sometimes it's just a band aid for a dying relationship. And a public service announcement for any polyamorous couples: Please don't use the close-minded comments made by monogamous people to stroke your own egos. I see it on LS (in this very thread in fact), and I see it in real life. It's a hand-to-forehead attitude. Edited August 9, 2011 by Severely Unamused My own stupidity.
Spark1111 Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 I think an open marriage would be almost impossible to sustain based on all we now know and are learning about human sexuality. Men CAN HAVE many sexual partners, enjoy the variety, and not have it affect their emotional bond with their spouse. They compartmentalize very nicely, thank you. Women, not so much. When a woman is orgasmic with a man, she releases hormones similiar to heroin. It clouds her judement making process and induces strong emotional and romantic feelings, whether valid or not. Why risk this mess? I would not.
nyrias Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 I think an open marriage would be almost impossible to sustain based on all we now know and are learning about human sexuality. Men CAN HAVE many sexual partners, enjoy the variety, and not have it affect their emotional bond with their spouse. They compartmentalize very nicely, thank you. Women, not so much. When a woman is orgasmic with a man, she releases hormones similiar to heroin. It clouds her judement making process and induces strong emotional and romantic feelings, whether valid or not. Why risk this mess? I would not. Plenty of people taking plenty of unnecessary risks. Compulsive gamblers are good examples. Sure you would not .. we all know that. But you obviously fail to understand why someone would do it. There are people doing it, right?
Spark1111 Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Plenty of people taking plenty of unnecessary risks. Compulsive gamblers are good examples. Sure you would not .. we all know that. But you obviously fail to understand why someone would do it. There are people doing it, right? Oh no, I do not obviously fail to understand why people grow bored with monogamy, and all the current pop culture that says we are not naturally monogamous, but I don't believe that many open marriages are successful based on our innate biologies and the MAJORITY of posts above mine. Did you read them? Few know of successful, long-term open marriages, and I believe it is mostly the wife who leaves for another man. Which would support what evolutionary biologists and others have recently determined as outlined by my post. Recap: A woman who is orgasmic with an OM has a very strong propensity to fall in love with that OM, whether valid or not. Our biology is so designed.
Holding-On Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 OP. If you are actually interested in open marriages you should check out forums for that specific purpose. Google open marriage, polyamory, swinging etc.... You can read all about it and discuss it with people in open marriages, against open marriages, having had open marriages etc. But, I am curious - please explain why this is the forum of choice for this thread?
wheelwright Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Me and my Husband have both talked about this and are seriously considering it. We both are very honest and openly communicate about everything..I have never been insecure or jealous in my relationship with him. I honestly believe that women and especially men ARE NOT monogomous by nature..Im sure that alot of married people dont cheat..But come on how many Marriages Public or otherwise have lasted a long time without any Infidelity?? I would definately like everyone's thoughts on open marriage..Hopefully there are open-minded adults on this site..Because i think this is an interesting topic.. No matter how wonderful you think your marriage is or how much your husband or wife loves you...We are human and attraction is something we cant control and just because you have a wedding ring. So why not be honest open about and consider something new. I don't mind too much, but if I can look up at the trees or down at the view with someone, and feel our souls touch as we do it together, then I probably don't need another sexual partner. If something is blocking the sharing of life, then yeah, I'd fall for the first person I could do that with. I have heard some couples do this for a while, and then revert to monogamy. Worth a try? I can easily imagine the desire to share special experiences in life with more than one person. And for this to be between a man and a woman or same sex orientated people. And for that to naturally lead to sex as an expression of the union. Do you want to share special experiences that involve a sex R, or do you just want different people sex?
John Bigboote Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 The MAJORITY of posts above mine. Did you read them? Few know of successful, long-term open marriages The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I suggest that the reason people know one or two exploded open marriages but no successful ones is that the successful ones are discreet. No one wants to be told that what they are doing is disgusting, wicked, or impossible (i.e. "you're lying" or "you may have survived more than decade this way, but you're doomed! DOOMED!"). Or worse yet, discriminated against--- we have been tossed out of restaurants and football stadia for kissing too many people in public. So most successful nonmonogamous people don't do that and keep it to themselves. They're very unlikely to share this part of their lives with people who think it's vile. I haven't stated how many successful open relationships I know, but the answer is "lots, too many to count." There are places and times people go to be able to talk freely about these things, and attendance is always significant and discussion always positive. Which would support what evolutionary biologists and others have recently determined as outlined by my post. Recap: A woman who is orgasmic with an OM has a very strong propensity to fall in love with that OM, whether valid or not. Our biology is so designed."Women release oxytocin during orgasm" is not the sum total of all accumulated knowledge of human sexuality and reproductive behavior. We also know, for instance, that the vaginal canal is designed to be a veritable battlefield for sperm competition, which could never be the case if women were exclusively monogamous or serially monogamous as you claim is their nature. The reality is that there are evolutionary features of our biology which point to monogamy (oxytocin), others which point to polygamy (dimorphism) and others which point to promiscuity (sperm competition). Clearly our evolutionary sexuality has had a very diverse and colorful past. As indeed there are people today who would prefer to be monogamous, others polygamous, and others promiscuous. All of us deserve loving lifetime relationships if that's what we want, without being gainsaid or told to shut up about it. But, I am curious - please explain why this is the forum of choice for this thread? Trolls typically post where the emotional response will be maximum.
David Cain Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Women, not so much. When a woman is orgasmic with a man, she releases hormones similiar to heroin. It clouds her judement making process and induces strong emotional and romantic feelings, whether valid or not. God enough with your generalizations.
YellowShark Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Yes. Being able to talk about anything with your partner is always a big red flag. Who said anything about not communicating with your partner? I totally agree that one should be able to talk about *anything* with their partner. That's very healthy. I just think that when you start to discuss looking for sexual gratification outside of the marriage that is a red flag that something is missing from the marriage. It's asking to have "sanctioned" sexual affairs. So why does one need that? Sex not good enough between the two partners? Why does one desire a variety of sexual partners? Is the current partner not enough? How can you predict the feelings that may arise when so many people become involved? How can you predict the emotional reactions you - or your partner - may have? What about STDs? How can you be sure the swingers you are swinging with, and the swingers they are swinging with, are all 100% infection-free? What if one of you decides they don't like the open marriage after all? Then what? I just see too many unforeseen problems which may arise that - in the end - can place a real strain on the marriage. Edited August 10, 2011 by YellowShark
Spark1111 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 God enough with your generalizations. Do you read? The latest research is absolutely fascinating. Have an open marriage if is suits you. I feel it is way too risky and a veritable land mine. These boards are filled with people who confuse biological hormone release with romantic love.
Spark1111 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I suggest that the reason people know one or two exploded open marriages but no successful ones is that the successful ones are discreet. No one wants to be told that what they are doing is disgusting, wicked, or impossible (i.e. "you're lying" or "you may have survived more than decade this way, but you're doomed! DOOMED!"). Or worse yet, discriminated against--- we have been tossed out of restaurants and football stadia for kissing too many people in public. So most successful nonmonogamous people don't do that and keep it to themselves. They're very unlikely to share this part of their lives with people who think it's vile. I haven't stated how many successful open relationships I know, but the answer is "lots, too many to count." There are places and times people go to be able to talk freely about these things, and attendance is always significant and discussion always positive. "Women release oxytocin during orgasm" is not the sum total of all accumulated knowledge of human sexuality and reproductive behavior. We also know, for instance, that the vaginal canal is designed to be a veritable battlefield for sperm competition, which could never be the case if women were exclusively monogamous or serially monogamous as you claim is their nature. The reality is that there are evolutionary features of our biology which point to monogamy (oxytocin), others which point to polygamy (dimorphism) and others which point to promiscuity (sperm competition). Clearly our evolutionary sexuality has had a very diverse and colorful past. As indeed there are people today who would prefer to be monogamous, others polygamous, and others promiscuous. All of us deserve loving lifetime relationships if that's what we want, without being gainsaid or told to shut up about it. Trolls typically post where the emotional response will be maximum. (QUOTE] I never claimed women were exclusively monogamous. DNA testing in the nineties proved 25% of all offspring DID not belong to the father raising the child. It was the first time an uh oh was raised about female monogamy. Have an open marriage if it suits you. I'm not judging. I just think the risks are greater than originally believed, especially for women.
moonlight4 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Interesting thread. My husband I have been together for 25 years and have discussed the idea of opening up our marriage many times during the course of our relationship. So, for the last 6 months we have been experimenting with others. It takes a lot of maturity, and strict boundaries. We have rules that both of us must follow, or we stop. So far it has worked out very well, and both of us understand that if we develop any sort of feelings for the other person, we end it. It's not for everyone for sure, and if either party has jeaulousy issues, then it wouldn't work. Two important factors to consider are: How could opening up one's marriage add to the relationship? for us it has led to a much more fullfilling sexual relationship for us. The second is that open communication is a must. All in all it has spiced up our relationship quite a bit. Would we do this forever, who knows, one step at a time.
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