David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Actually DC, I am not in denial. I knew what my future held and it wasn't necessary for me to stay to figure it out. I don't buy the everyone cheats at some point(I didn't), I don't buy that him cheating was my fault(I didn't place his penis in her vagina), I didn't buy into any of his excuses. I am responsible for the problems that I helped to create in the marriage. I am responsible for sweeping our issues under the rug and walking around them without working on them. I am responsible for trusting him blindly. Since the terms reconciliation and staying are the same for you and not me. I guess we agree to disagree. I didn't say you were in denial.
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 What's to argue? You're talking about "staying together"...what you're describing isn't reconciliation. You don't believe in reconciliation, and aren't open to consider how it works. What's to discuss in light of that? What would you hope to gain out of that conversation? Why argue when there is no value in it? We already know that we don't agree. First you say what's to argue, now you're saying why argue. Just goes to show how phony "reconciliation" is.
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Actually, nobody is obligated to forgive anyone anything, ever. It's just a good will. Then again, if you plan to stay with person who you haven't forgiven, it's gonna get venomous and hateful. To each their own though. It's going to get hard whether you say those words or not so in the end, the word is moot altogether concerning cheating.
bentnotbroken Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Wow, you want him to die???:eek: This must be sooo painful. a lot of great responses though, good to see some can work it through w/out letting it destroy them...:bunny: Yes before d-day when I was reading his lying emails and right after d-day when all I wanted was the most painful horrible boil every to show up in humanity to show up on his azz. And he die a most painful agonizing death I could think of. His life for mine. Eye for an eye. Then I he was served with divorce papers and that was even better. The look on his face was priceless.
bentnotbroken Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 I didn't say you were in denial. The general "you" my mistake. Sorry.
Owl Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 First you say what's to argue, now you're saying why argue. Just goes to show how phony "reconciliation" is. Not sure I follow you, my friend. How does not seeing value in 'arguing' with you somehow prove reconciliation is phony? It just demonstrates my opinion of the value of further interaction with you in general...
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Not sure I follow you, my friend. How does not seeing value in 'arguing' with you somehow prove reconciliation is phony? It just demonstrates my opinion of the value of further interaction with you in general... You debate with someone but when you can no longer back it up you want to say it's no use in debating.
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 The general "you" my mistake. Sorry. That's fine.
Owl Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 You debate with someone but when you can no longer back it up you want to say it's no use in debating. Not that I can no longer back it up...but I know that there's no point in trying to convince you of my viewpoint. You refuse to see it, because you do not want to see it. It's not a failure or flaw in my viewpiont...the "failure" isn't on my side of the keyboard, my friend. Why should I continue to try to explain to you when there is absolutely no chance that you or I will benefit from doing so? Why do you seem to want me to continue to argue with you?
silktricks Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 After DDay, what is the best thing your WS could say to you and why? I'm a little confused about your question, to be honest. What I wanted my husband to feel and what I wanted him to say were not necessarily the same. I wanted him to feel my pain so that he could come to an understanding of what he had done to us. I wanted him to feel that I could in time forgive him, but know that it would take a lot of time and a lot of energy from him. I wanted him to feel that we were worth the work that was in front of us to recover our marriage and ourselves. I wanted him to feel sorrow at losing sight of us. I wanted him to say that he regretted his actions. I wanted him to tell me how sorry he was that he had chosen to deceive me. I wanted to hear that he loved me. But words mean nothing if they aren't demonstrated by constant and consistent actions. If his actions didn't show me every day how sorry he was for what he did and how thankful he was that I was willing to work on rebuilding our marriage, no words would have meant anything. And eventually, after all of our hard work, I wanted him to feel forgiven. I wanted him to feel safe in our love, just as I knew he wanted me to feel.
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Not that I can no longer back it up...but I know that there's no point in trying to convince you of my viewpoint. You refuse to see it, because you do not want to see it. It's not a failure or flaw in my viewpiont...the "failure" isn't on my side of the keyboard, my friend. Oh so someone's a failure because they're no longer married, right? So cynical of you Owl. Why should I continue to try to explain to you when there is absolutely no chance that you or I will benefit from doing so? Why do you seem to want me to continue to argue with you? Again, typical response.
Owl Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Oh so someone's a failure because they're no longer married, right? So cynical of you Owl. And of course, you twisted the entire context around. You should have become a pretzel maker. The failure was a "failure to understand"...apparently in more ways than one. The failure wasn't that you're no longer married...although the failure to understand could have been a contributing factor to no longer being married. Seems likely. Again, typical response. If you feel this is "typical"...why do you keep asking for it over and over again?
Owl Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 So in an effort to get this thread back on topic... Wheelwright, what expectations did your husband have of you after d-day? What did he tell you that he expected you to feel, or hint that he expected you to feel? What did he say that he wanted from you...and why? Does that seem to differ from what you expected to hear here?
Tech_E Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 What did I want her to feel? Lord I couldn't sort out my own thoughts, let alone what I wanted her to feel. I felt little besides rage, pure and simple. Rage. A WS can NEVER EVER fully grasp the pain they caused. No matter how remorseful they are, they cannot ever fully grasp it.
David Cain Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 And of course, you twisted the entire context around. You should have become a pretzel maker. No one twisted your words. The failure was a "failure to understand"...apparently in more ways than one. The failure wasn't that you're no longer married...although the failure to understand could have been a contributing factor to no longer being married. Seems likely.And this cynical, cheating view is coming from someone who claims to have been betrayed. Look at you. You're refusing to see the justifications you use in order to stay with a cheater. If you feel this is "typical"...why do you keep asking for it over and over again?No one is asking for the typical, "reconciliation advice." The truth about "reconciliation" will suffice.
Spark1111 Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 You debate with someone but when you can no longer back it up you want to say it's no use in debating. Why, oh why do you presuppose Owl, or anyone else who is happily reconciled, has to debate you? Or back it up in a way you agree with? They do not. What you perceive as justification is what you perceive. Stop t/jing. WW, I wanted him to feel what I felt so he could understand how a grenade had been lobbed into the middle of us, and what it would take to heal from it. I needed, not words, but actions to reassure me that I came first in his heart and his head again. When I felt pain, I needed him to wrap his arms around me, apologize, and reassure me that he would do anything necessary to heal us....not run away because he felt shame or guilt, or grow defensive and shut down emotionally on me, again! For a long time, it needed to be about me, not him, before it could be about us again. That takes a lot of courage and consistentcy, especially for someone who avoids conflict, introspection, or has difficulty identifying and expressing their feelings.
imagine Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Wheelwright, many of the WS experience loss of their own pleasure at the break up of their affair. They become depressed and morbid. They do not see their marriage as a lifelong commitment of two people to one ideal. While I have not personally able to experience an event of loss, this is my response to betrayal: I would wish that my spouse should feel the same measure of love as I had for them, then see it lost... This experience will raise the level of betrayal in their eyes like a hand touching a hot stove. I want their empathy.
StoneCold Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 ....the small hurts they inflict on their spouse may grow to be very deep over time, but usually they have no idea they are causing pain. I dunno frozen...maybe in few instances this is true but I have a hard time buying this as a generality. If I were to bet I would bet that they know but dont care because IMHO: A) It suits them and.. B) There are no repercussions...that they are aware of Thats people...they push and push and push until someone pushes back.
Owl Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 No one twisted your words. You most certainly did. I didn't say anything about "failure equaling not married"...but you were the one who jumped to that connection. You CREATED a connection in your own mind where one didn't exist, to suit your own purpose. And this cynical, cheating view is coming from someone who claims to have been betrayed. Look at you. You're refusing to see the justifications you use in order to stay with a cheater. It's not cynical, nor am I cheating. I'm observing your behavior on this board. Constantly attacking those you don't agree with, twisting around the words and comments to suit your own viewpoint, name-calling and deliberately insulting, and flat out incapable of reasoning through a concept if you don't like it. And I think to myself...could you imagine how horrid it must have been for anyone to live with someone with a mindset like that. And I suddenly find myself totally unsurprised by the outcome of your situation. As far as "justifications to stay with a cheater"...there's nothing to justify. YOU may think so, but frankly neither I nor apparently anyone else cares about your opinion of our marriages or relationships...so think what you like...it doesn't change a thing. No one is asking for the typical, "reconciliation advice." The truth about "reconciliation" will suffice. No one asked for you to continually try to twist this whole thing around on me based off of a post in response to this thread. I pointed out what was I expected of my wife after d-day, and what she expected as well. I get that you don't agree with it...acknowledged that in fact. Simple enough, really.
ladydesigner Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Wheelwright, many of the WS experience loss of their own pleasure at the break up of their affair. They become depressed and morbid. They do not see their marriage as a lifelong commitment of two people to one ideal. While I have not personally able to experience an event of loss, this is my response to betrayal: I would wish that my spouse should feel the same measure of love as I had for them, then see it lost... This experience will raise the level of betrayal in their eyes like a hand touching a hot stove. I want their empathy. This is EXACTLY how I felt. Although I went about the aftermath completely wrong. My H felt love lost from my side no doubt about that (during my revenge affair). But it came at my expense also. A hard lesson learned. I hate A's now I am sickened by them. Wrecks so much havoc on lives. So unnecessary.
nyrias Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 One does not need forgiveness in order to stay together. BSs are not obligated to forgive a cheater. Then what is the point? You would stay with someone forever that you have a grudge against? That is just plain stupid. And what have obligation anything to do with it? No one is obligated to give money to charity too, and you know how that turns out. The statements you made are not technically wrong, they are just irrelevant.
silktricks Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 I dunno frozen...maybe in few instances this is true but I have a hard time buying this as a generality. If I were to bet I would bet that they know but dont care because IMHO: A) It suits them and.. B) There are no repercussions...that they are aware of Thats people...they push and push and push until someone pushes back. Oh boy do I ever disagree with you. If someone is hurt and refuses to tell their partner they are hurt - or explain what hurt them, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go. You can get a LOT of repercussions, but if you don't understand (because the other person won't explain) what the issue is, then just exactly what is it that you are supposed to do? I speak from experience here... it didn't "suit" me to be someone who was hurting another person - but I was. It didn't "suit" my husband to be someone who was hurting another person - but he was. I went to IC, he went to IC. We didn't go to MC - which was what we needed. We needed someone to "translate" for us. Our birth families were completely different. Normal interaction in my family was considered rude and insensitive in his. Normal interaction in his family was considered mean and attacking in mine. He thought I should be able to figure out what he was mad about - I couldn't as I had no point of comparison. He's not a mean person, unless he feels like he's being mistreated. I'm not a mean person, but I get very defensive when I feel attacked. My anger and hurt led me to become introverted and cold. His anger and hurt led him to have an affair. I don't know if this is a "generality" but it wouldn't surprise me, as most people seem to assume that everyone else is just like them - and most of us aren't
Snowflower Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 I have only read the opening post so far... I wanted my husband to see/feel my husband do everything in his power to make up for what he did. He could never tell me a simple "I'm sorry" too many times as far as I was concerned. IMO, a WS can never completely understand how it feels to be betrayed by infidelity. Unless the WS had been affected by such a betrayal themselves, then it is impossible for them to understand what it feels like. Of course, if they had been affected by such a betrayal, it would make it even harder for a BS to understand how they could do it to them. My H will never know how much it hurt or how much his decision changed me as a person.
nyrias Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 IMO, a WS can never completely understand how it feels to be betrayed by infidelity. My H will never know how much it hurt or how much his decision changed me as a person. If so, one cannot claim that the expectation of pain on the BS part would be a proper deterrent to S going W since they would never understand it (or anticipate it). If there is no way for them to know how much it will hurt, obviously that would NOT be a big part in their decision to cheat.
StoneCold Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Oh boy do I ever disagree with you. If someone is hurt and refuses to tell their partner they are hurt - or explain what hurt them, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go. You can get a LOT of repercussions, but if you don't understand (because the other person won't explain) what the issue is, then just exactly what is it that you are supposed to do? So what you're saying is...because someone doent tell you...you dont know what you are doing? If I am screwing up...I dont need to be told this... I can see for myself. Also...you assume the other party didnt say anything. So what of those that did and ended up getting shooed away? Maybe your situation was like what you said bu generally speaking.... I dont buy it all I don't know if this is a "generality" but it wouldn't surprise me, as most people seem to assume that everyone else is just like them - and most of us aren't Well this may explain many of the comments I have heard on LS that leave me somewhat perplexed.... I however do not buy into that beleif
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