zengirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 i think you're projecting yourself on him, to put it bluntly. he isn't under any social/biological pressure to be married and have children as women in their 30s/40s are. and speaking for myself, although i'm not 40 i'm only a few years from it, i'm more open to longer term relationships now than i was in my 20s. Most of the men I'm friends with are around their early 30s. And the unmarried ones certainly seem to feel social pressure, if not biological (many feel biological pressure as well because they want to have kids and not be totally old when they're growing up), to settle down. I think the people for whom marriage and kids are a priority will start showing it's a priority in their lives in their 30s, male or female. Again, that doesn't mean they find the right person and actually get married, but if it's "a little of both," and this guy doesn't even feel compelled to put energy into dating in general as an aspect of his life, he's likely not making those things a priority. Again, not all men (or women) want marriage, this doesn't mean they don't want LTR's, or to settle down The OP seemed like she wanted marriage. I agree (and have already said) that not everyone wants the same things, but it's important people be compatible on what they want. I've personally never seen a man/woman LTR partnership last till death that was't marriage, and to me the "lasting till death" part is settling down. I guess I would personally be skeptical anyone would really settle down and be mine forever and not want to marry me, particularly if I wanted to get married. As the OP is someone who wants marriage ("could do without" really doesn't count since what she wants is marriage, with or without the paper, and I cannot imagine someone who wanted the same thing making a big deal about getting the paper eventually), a guy who doesn't is probably not for her. And paper or not, she wants a marriage-like partnership. So she needs to find someone on the same page. Not all never-been-married people are perpetually single, but a lot are; they are happy that way --- nothing wrong with that unless you add a partner with opposite desires to the mix. Really, I think it's just important to talk about the kind of relationship you want and your life goals in general in the early dating stages to assess this kind of compatibility. The only men you'll chase off (unless you're discussing it in crazy ways like sitting down on a third date and saying, "So what will we name our three babies?" or something nutty) will be either incompatible with your desires or have issues talking about important relationship things. Neither of which sounds like a guy worth spending tons of time on, since it likely won't work out.
Woggle Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 He might want marriage but wants it to be something he does right. Marriage is a big deal and people should not go into it haphazardly. Would you rather he be divorced after rushing into a sham marriage?
carhill Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 The guy in question is very focused on his career right now and he spends a lot of time participating in a certain sport. He hasn’t even dated this summer, partly because he’s been busy, partly because he has fun with his friends and doesn’t need a woman, and partly because he’s particular about who he dates. I think he surprised himself when he asked me out! His longest relationship was several years ago and that lasted 2 ½ years. She wanted to get married and he didn’t. This has made me question if he is LTR material. How much of this is first-hand information and how much is what he told you? Do you move in the same social circles? Do you know of his friends and family? More data points are useful in making a balanced assessment. Choosing to date someone to get to know them isn't a lifelong commitment. It's dating. You're both mature. Time reveals all truths. Entertain other gentlemen who catch your fancy. It all works out. If, after 'getting to know him', you find him to not be compatible with your relationship goals, then go with that. If compatible, that. Historically, my data point is, barring extreme behaviors, I generally take a month or two of occasional dating to get to know someone (a stranger prior) before making any decision whether to progress or not. The last woman I dated (while separated) asked me how I felt about marriage on our first date. I thought that was a good question and answered honestly that I had enjoyed being married, though my exW and I became largely incompatible, and hoped to be married again someday. Pretty simple. That said, she could have interpreted it many ways, all the way from a man who likes intimacy and marriage to a man who's looking for a mommy to take care of him. Those interpretations were/are outside of my control. Apply to your circumstances as appropriate. Good luck
HeavenOrHell Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Fair enough, that's a different question, your original question was a general one and wasn't asking if it is a red flag for 'you', but more of a general 'is it a red flag if..' It's a red flag for you, but it wouldn't be for me But I would like to get married, so not wanting to IS a red flag for me. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to get married, as long as I'm not trying to date you. The longest relationship he had was the 2 1/2 year one that ended because she wanted marriage.
thatone Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 How much of this is first-hand information and how much is what he told you? Do you move in the same social circles? Do you know of his friends and family? More data points are useful in making a balanced assessment. Choosing to date someone to get to know them isn't a lifelong commitment. It's dating. You're both mature. Time reveals all truths. Entertain other gentlemen who catch your fancy. It all works out. If, after 'getting to know him', you find him to not be compatible with your relationship goals, then go with that. If compatible, that. Historically, my data point is, barring extreme behaviors, I generally take a month or two of occasional dating to get to know someone (a stranger prior) before making any decision whether to progress or not. The last woman I dated (while separated) asked me how I felt about marriage on our first date. I thought that was a good question and answered honestly that I had enjoyed being married, though my exW and I became largely incompatible, and hoped to be married again someday. Pretty simple. That said, she could have interpreted it many ways, all the way from a man who likes intimacy and marriage to a man who's looking for a mommy to take care of him. Those interpretations were/are outside of my control. Apply to your circumstances as appropriate. Good luck the above is precisely my point. iris, i really am cheering for you, you seem like one of the more honest and genuine women on this forum, but the problem i see is pretty simple. men are attracted to confident and decisive women just like women are attracted to confident and decisive men. and you have a confidence problem. you seem so driven to find the man you wish for that when you don't see sunshine and roses right away your frustration gets the better of you, and you come here looking for someone to agree with you and justify you in rejecting men you really can't know very much about, since you've only known them for a short period of time. i've been in the same boat you are in, even to the point of being frustrated with the pool where i live. fortunately i have the means to travel and look elsewhere, my work isn't tied to a specific location, so i looked elsewhere and found someone. i know not everyone can do that, so i do sympathize, i couldn't look elsewhere in my younger years due to work so i spent a lot of single years not even caring about women. but when i did find her (and admittedly it's early yet but sometimes you just know that one you meet is at least a long term relationship, ya know?) all of these reservations that stemmed from a string of bad women leading up to her were there for me too. the difference in me and you is those reservations and fears don't drive me. everyone has them, but i don't let them affect my actions. it's not fair to me and it's not fair to the women i meet but don't know yet if i let those issues rule my actions. i owed it to her to be objective and reactive, not judgmental and apprehensive. and she was the same way, she recognized that i was making a concerted effort to meet and get to know her by traveling to her city, so she did her best to accommodate me and let me know that the attraction was mutual. the end result, of course, is a pretty comfortable beginning to a relationship. it's simple from here on out, there's nothing to be afraid of. but when is there anything to be afraid of? even if it blows up next week or next month or next year am i worse off for having met her? is she worse off for having met me? not really. i don't know how everyone else gets to that line of thought, i did it on my own and i'm not a therapist. but it really seems just that simple to me.
carhill Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 OP, a suggestion: Be open to and accepting of the potentials, all the way from your first instinct being correct (presuming your instinct is that this man is a commitment phobe) to the man spewing words that aren't backed up by actions to him having a marked change in perspective due to meeting and getting to know you. Embracing and accepting the potentials and actually going through the process and accepting the results can lead to a more positive outlook on the whole process, as well as the potential for a wonderful relationship. Absolutely have boundaries and act in a way which is healthy for you; also endeavor to proceed without prejudice and live the moment. If it turns out your first instinct was correct, then you can move on in a healthy way with more knowledge and insight than you entered with; concrete bits of information which bring more clarity to future interactions. OP, perhaps I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I re-read and have a question. Exactly how often have you pressed flesh with this man; had definable dates where you spent time together in person? You said he asked you out. More details please. Thanks
Author iris219 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 iris, i really am cheering for you, you seem like one of the more honest and genuine women on this forum, but the problem i see is pretty simple. men are attracted to confident and decisive women just like women are attracted to confident and decisive men. and you have a confidence problem. you seem so driven to find the man you wish for that when you don't see sunshine and roses right away your frustration gets the better of you, and you come here looking for someone to agree with you and justify you in rejecting men you really can't know very much about, since you've only known them for a short period of time. Thanks Neal. I'm rooting for you and your current girl as well. It's funny you say I don't seem confident though; my friends say I’m one of the most confident people they know. I’m known for being the one who has everything together. I seem highly in control of every area of my life. The person who posts here and the person I am in RL are two different people in many ways (or I’m good at hiding my neurotic side in RL). I’ve been told by men that I’m intimidating because I’m very confident and independent. I think, honestly, what’s happening is I’m meeting men I just don’t feel it for. Because I’m not that into anyone, I start to look for concrete reasons to ditch them (vs. the elusive “I’m just not into it”). This takes the failure of the “relationship” off of me and puts it on them.
Author iris219 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 OP, perhaps I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I re-read and have a question. Exactly how often have you pressed flesh with this man; had definable dates where you spent time together in person? You said he asked you out. More details please. Thanks carhill, thanks for all the advice. I admit I'm getting WAY ahead of myself here. We hung out for several hours the first night we met. We had a first date, which went pretty well. He invited me to hang out with him and his friends last night, so I did. I know I need to get to know him better before I start panicking and seeing red flags waving everywhere. (But now I'm starting to worry about his drinking. )
carhill Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 OK, you've been on one date. You also have met his friends, at least his drinking friends. All good bits of information. Would you think it healthy that he ask you out on an 'alone' date next? What's your dating/getting to know style? If you were to join me and 'hang out' with my closest friends, you'd definitely meet some men who like to kick back, toss down some cold ones and smoke up some meat on the grill. You'd also meet some long-time married parents and grandparents who would greet you with a big hug and make you feel right at home. Bits of information. Example: When you hung out with this guy and his friends, what was the dynamic? Were the friends all male? If so, were their wives and girlfriends with them? If not, how did they interact with you and other women? Would you say, from your first instinct, that this man has like-minded friends or is he an anomaly in the group? This is all stuff I look at during 'getting to know'. It's not a cold and detached analysis, but rather feelings and observations based on a lifetime of interacting with strangers. It's a 'vibe'. Why are you starting to worry about his drinking? Is he an alcoholic? Did he get drunk and try to drive? What is the 'vibe'? Do you think, after two hang outs and one date, the vibe has traction? Why? I'm starting to sound like our MC
temporaryvisa Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 That's soo weird! One of your dealbreakers is that he has to be divorced?
zengirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I admit I'm getting WAY ahead of myself here. We hung out for several hours the first night we met. We had a first date, which went pretty well. He invited me to hang out with him and his friends last night, so I did. I know I need to get to know him better before I start panicking and seeing red flags waving everywhere. (But now I'm starting to worry about his drinking. ) Was this your first date (with his friends) or was it separate? At any rate, if I dig a guy and he has no actual crazy-person behavior, I'd say a month is a fair amount of time to give it before you get into the nitty gritty "does his relationship style mesh?" type stuff. But it's never too early to consider and be aware of it. Definitely don't fall for a guy before you know he wants what you want because that leads to sticking things out and hoping for change = disappointment Big Time. But you can always date a guy, have fun, and get to know him. Just don't hang around for a year or more with a guy who obviously wants different things. I guess it depends how you see red flags. To me, a red flag does not = something is always wrong. Instead, it = I should keep this in mind/examine it/be aware of it. I have more than once found a red flag, kept an eye on it, and resolved it with, "Not a problem." The issue is how you deal with potential problems and how obsessive you get about it. It sounds like maybe you're an over-worrier, so you may want to dial it back. Didn't you say you never even really dig guys that much and feel the za-za-zou so to speak for them? Does this guy really pique your interest? I'm curious.
cerridwen Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Would you say a never married, very attractive man, in his late 30's to early 40's, who has a lot of good qualities and a lot going for him is a red flag? No. Has he just not met the right woman? Possibly. Or, he could just have been pursuing other things. Or, because he has options, he doesn’t have to settle down with one woman (and never will)? Also possible. Thoughts? Where I live there are quite a few of these men. Bachelors in their 30s into early 40s, their careers have been their focus. I don't see it as a red flag. Different priorities. Nor is it a red flag that someone might have waited as they worked out their issues.
Ruby Slippers Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I would date a never-married guy, no problem. But getting married is not a requirement for me. If marriage were a requirement, I would still date him for a while, and see how things unfold. The problem is that no matter what a guy says, you really don't know how it's going to work out. He could say he's all about marriage, or even all about marriage with you, and it still doesn't work out. From what I've read of your threads, you haven't dated much lately. For that reason alone, I'd give him a go. Maybe he's a keeper; maybe he isn't. But you might as well have a good time.
Author iris219 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 Was this your first date (with his friends) or was it separate? Didn't you say you never even really dig guys that much and feel the za-za-zou so to speak for them? Does this guy really pique your interest? I'm curious. We had one actual date, two hang outs. This is over a week period. I was just telling neal that because I’m never that into anyone, I start to look for concrete reasons to ditch them (vs. the elusive “I’m just not that into it”). That way, I can "blame" them for the "relationship" failure instead of having to consider that there may be something wrong with me. He piques my interest in that he's fairly high profile and he's attractive. Other than that, I'm not sure. I've overanalyzed it so much that it's lost a lot of its appeal. The drinking definitely hasn't helped much either. OK, you've been on one date. You also have met his friends, at least his drinking friends. All good bits of information. Would you think it healthy that he ask you out on an 'alone' date next? What's your dating/getting to know style? If you were to join me and 'hang out' with my closest friends, you'd definitely meet some men who like to kick back, toss down some cold ones and smoke up some meat on the grill. You'd also meet some long-time married parents and grandparents who would greet you with a big hug and make you feel right at home. Bits of information. Example: When you hung out with this guy and his friends, what was the dynamic? Were the friends all male? If so, were their wives and girlfriends with them? If not, how did they interact with you and other women? Would you say, from your first instinct, that this man has like-minded friends or is he an anomaly in the group? This is all stuff I look at during 'getting to know'. It's not a cold and detached analysis, but rather feelings and observations based on a lifetime of interacting with strangers. It's a 'vibe'. Why are you starting to worry about his drinking? Is he an alcoholic? Did he get drunk and try to drive? What is the 'vibe'? Do you think, after two hang outs and one date, the vibe has traction? Why? I'm starting to sound like our MC I don’t know my dating/getting to know a person style because I’m usually done after one date. Sometimes two. I don’t really get to know anyone (so I guess that is a style/trend). It was males and females last night. Everyone was cool, except for one of his closest guy friends. His guy friend was fun—at first. Then he got really drunk and was inappropriate. The guy I’m seeing is the opposite—he’s very poised (kind of like myself). His friend kept telling me how hot I was. I even heard him on the phone telling this to a mutual friend at one point. When we somehow ended up alone, he made a joke about how if things don’t work out with my guy, to consider him. He also told me he’s not that into the girl he came with. I don’t find comments like this amusing in anyway. I find them disrespectful to me, his friend, and the girl he’s seeing. Like I said, he was fine before he got drunk. My guy is definitely a drinker. He knew better than to drive. He got drunk when I first met him, but was out with his guy friends so I let it slide. He didn’t get drunk on our actual date, but did get drunk last night. I asked him if he drinks at home most nights and he said yes, generally he has 2-4 drinks. I’ve never sure where the line between heavy drinker and alcoholic is.
zengirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 We had one actual date, two hang outs. This is over a week period. Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure how much 'alone' time you had. I was just telling neal that because I’m never that into anyone, I start to look for concrete reasons to ditch them (vs. the elusive “I’m just not that into it”). That way, I can "blame" them for the "relationship" failure instead of having to consider that there may be something wrong with me. He piques my interest in that he's fairly high profile and he's attractive. Other than that, I'm not sure. I've overanalyzed it so much that it's lost a lot of its appeal. The drinking definitely hasn't helped much either. Yeah, so for you, finding red flags probably isn't productive. Usually, it's best to correct based on where you are, and it sounds like you need to do a little more "Let it be"ing and just go with the flow, so to speak, for a bit and get to know people. That spark is probably not happening with anyone because you're choking it to death with analysis. (Though being "high profile" is a silly reason to like anyone, FTR, but I don't think you err too far in that direction from what I remember of you. Better to concentrate on how you'd like to feel and what would bring you fulfillment.) Just kind of go with things and see where they fall. Life is about balance (or happiness is, at least), so while it's good to be aware of potential incompatibilities and issues, it sounds like you need absolutely NO help with that; you've got that covered. Now it's time to go in the other direction. My guy is definitely a drinker. He knew better than to drive. He got drunk when I first met him, but was out with his guy friends so I let it slide. He didn’t get drunk on our actual date, but did get drunk last night. I asked him if he drinks at home most nights and he said yes, generally he has 2-4 drinks. I’ve never sure where the line between heavy drinker and alcoholic is. Hm. For me, that'd be an issue, but I don't think it's about labeling it (alcoholism to me is not really about alcohol, like most addictions; it's about an underlying issue; some people really can turn anything into an addiction). It just wouldn't mesh with what I want or my style. The drinking at home/every day would be my issue, not the drinking out. Though I know people who drink most days who I'd never call alcoholics. But I don't think it could hurt to give people more of a chance, if you usually err the other way. And even when you decide someone isn't for you, sometimes it's better to remember the cool/awesome/good things about them, because you'll probably wind up meeting more people with those traits then. You get more of what you think about (or notice it more, at least), IME.
thatone Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) on the drinking thing, it's personal preference but i really don't judge people for that unless they are excessive and dangerous. i'm also a drinker, but on dates i'll limit myself to two when i have to drive. if it's a get together at someone's house, maybe the same as him, 3 or 4. i'm from new orleans, we drink, that's how we are . alone, i'll usually have one a day just to help me get to sleep, maybe two on a particularly stressful day. more info needed to make a decision on that. you mention his 'status'. to be honest, that could very well explain the lack of a marriage, if you mean he has a prestigious/high paying/long hour job or some such. everyone has to make choices, and the choice to work long hours in your younger years in exchange for a payoff later means you will have less long term relationships in those younger years, that's just part of it. i can relate to that too. but at some point those men who worked hard through their 20s/early 30s to get the better life realize that they are doing all of that for nothing if they're just earning for themselves. that's the situation i wound up in, and explains why i became more open to long term relationships in my 30s versus my 20s. and i freely tell women that, i don't try to hide it. you never know, when the conversation comes up he might tell you the exact same thing, i would go so far as to say it's the most likely explanation. Edited July 30, 2011 by thatone
carhill Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 OK, so drunk upon meeting and drunk during hangout and sober on date. Closest friend also drunk on hang out and propositions you. TBH, this dynamic is above my pay grade (I don't live that type of lifestyle nor have those kinds of male friends) so I'll leave the advice to others. My parting advice would be to decline 'hanging out' and accept 'dates'. YMMV.
Author iris219 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 OK, so drunk upon meeting and drunk during hangout and sober on date. Closest friend also drunk on hang out and propositions you. When you break it all down like that, the whole thing sounds like an unsalvageable mess. I've pretty much decided I'm not going out with him again.
temporaryvisa Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 When you break it all down like that, the whole thing sounds like an unsalvageable mess. I've pretty much decided I'm not going out with him again. LOL what?! How is this an unsalvageable mess? Holy crap, wtf, nothing has happened yet! This is LIFE. Normal life! Stop looking for things to end relationships...Do you want to be alone forever?
zengirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 LOL what?! How is this an unsalvageable mess? Holy crap, wtf, nothing has happened yet! This is LIFE. Normal life! Stop looking for things to end relationships...Do you want to be alone forever? The fact that he was drunk 2 out of the 3 times he saw her (especially at their age) isn't really normal life for everyone. . . it sounds like he was not just drinking those two times, but drunk. Honestly, it's a compatibility issue. Though it does sound like the OP leans towards overcritical, and "mess" may be too strong a word, that's definitely outside the realm of compatible behavior for a lot of people. When you're younger, perhaps drinking all the time seems more normal. . . by the time you're older, it can become a compatibility issue for sure, since a lot of people outgrow that mindset (if they ever had it to begin with). I certainly wouldn't invite someone I'd just been on a date with and then proceed to get drunk in front of them so early on. A drink or two? Maybe. But if this guy drinks every day and gets drunk regularly, it could easily be an issue of "Not my cuppa" with Iris or many other gals. That's not normal life for a lot of people.
Crabbies Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 The opposite could be argued. One could ask whether a man in his late 30s/early 40s and has been divorced is also a red flag. And some people would most definitively answer yes - he's "damaged goods", or "bad at relationships"...blah blah blah. There could be a perfectly good explanation why he hasn't taken the plunge. You should be inquiring about his past with him, not with us. If it were a woman and she is 60 never married, then it's ok. However a man not married or never been by the time he is 35.....oh boy.....Yank that red flag up in the air! . Speaking as one of those men, the only thing that it shows is that he's really, really smart. . . . cosigned. It seems like for some people it's a red flag to have gotten married too young, or too old, or too soon, or you waited too long... or you didn't get married, you don't want to get married, you haven't met anyone you want to get married to... or you have had too many relationships, or not enough, or not enough of the right kind... sigh. Keep looking for red flags, and I guess you're bound to find some. Red flags ug. You meet a person. You date them. See how they act, what they think, what they say, who they seem to be and decide whether they are worth a go. Even at that you can't know everything. Most people can actually make mistakes, learn from them and change. Some are so complex however, they don't even admit anything they've done to cause heart ache in someone else. Life is a red flag. Be wise, be brave, hope for the best, cut your losses when they come and keep soldiering on.
EasyHeart Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 The drinking seems like a much bigger issue than the not-ever-married. Of course, there a good likelihood they might be inter-related. . . .
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