JRoy Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 I am a hot head and reactive person. My wife is an accomplished lier. Neither of us are comfortable with confrontation. I am in my 60's, ready to retire and not willing to end the marriage. I am asking, looking for, relevant questions to ask my wife. I thought if I have a list prepared that I would be more apt to be able to confront her. More than 30 years ago my wife had an affair with her boss. When I found out I was devastated and in a state of rage and confusion. At one point I assaulted my wife and wanted to kill her. I left the home, three children under 5, and she filed for divorce. Three months later we went to MC and reconciled. The wisdom of the time (MC, friends, relatives and church) suggested her affair, at it root, was my fault more than hers and needed to work on my issues to be a better husband and father. I bought into that and attempted to improve myself to improve my marriage. Its been a rocky rode. We have been in MC three different times over the years. The last time really seemed to be going well, we made improvements, learned a great deal of how to love and respect each other. That ended when the MC retired. Life slowly reverted some and we were straining to stay together. Mostly I believed the fault was mine. Last year I started IC after my wife confessed to 'one more lie'. I just needed to talk to somebody because I was sure I wanted to end the marriage. I felt I had to get my bearings straight and feet on the ground first. My councilor said in effect that I had never resolved the issue of the affair and was in denial and holding on to past pain. One the the things the councilor suggested was 20 rapid fire questions to my wife. Doing this a couple of times would give me some answers and build trust in my wife. That is when I found LS, making notes and learning about what damage an affair really does to a person and marriage. I found the 180 list and implemented it. I told my wife I did not trust her, I told her I was still in pain about her affair and moved into another bed room. She came to me to tell the bare bones facts. That took about 10 minutes. I told her it would not be a one time talk and that her story would bring up other questions. I have asked her for an hour to talk about it again. Thank you.
Trojan John Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 You have to figure out the 20 burning questions for yourself. What is it you want to know? How do you see your future with her? If you are harbouring such distrust and unresolved issues, why not divorce? My mother is 60 and going on her third divorce. She is very strong-willed and has decided that enough is enough (again). If she hasn't told you the full truth in over 30 years, what makes you think that she will start now?
Spark1111 Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 I am a hot head and reactive person. My wife is an accomplished lier. Neither of us are comfortable with confrontation. I am in my 60's, ready to retire and not willing to end the marriage. I am asking, looking for, relevant questions to ask my wife. I thought if I have a list prepared that I would be more apt to be able to confront her. More than 30 years ago my wife had an affair with her boss. When I found out I was devastated and in a state of rage and confusion. At one point I assaulted my wife and wanted to kill her. I left the home, three children under 5, and she filed for divorce. Three months later we went to MC and reconciled. The wisdom of the time (MC, friends, relatives and church) suggested her affair, at it root, was my fault more than hers and needed to work on my issues to be a better husband and father. I bought into that and attempted to improve myself to improve my marriage. Its been a rocky rode. We have been in MC three different times over the years. The last time really seemed to be going well, we made improvements, learned a great deal of how to love and respect each other. That ended when the MC retired. Life slowly reverted some and we were straining to stay together. Mostly I believed the fault was mine. Last year I started IC after my wife confessed to 'one more lie'. I just needed to talk to somebody because I was sure I wanted to end the marriage. I felt I had to get my bearings straight and feet on the ground first. My councilor said in effect that I had never resolved the issue of the affair and was in denial and holding on to past pain. One the the things the councilor suggested was 20 rapid fire questions to my wife. Doing this a couple of times would give me some answers and build trust in my wife. That is when I found LS, making notes and learning about what damage an affair really does to a person and marriage. I found the 180 list and implemented it. I told my wife I did not trust her, I told her I was still in pain about her affair and moved into another bed room. She came to me to tell the bare bones facts. That took about 10 minutes. I told her it would not be a one time talk and that her story would bring up other questions. I have asked her for an hour to talk about it again. Thank you. Well, this was at the top of my list: How did you give yourself permission to have an affair? When DID you begin to feel guilty? Did you ever? What was I doing wrong? Did you ever try to communicate to me how many needs of your's you thought I wasn't fulfilling? It's a start JRoy. Open ended questions so that they will communicate MORE. No judgements. Just listen.
Memphis Raines Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 That is when I found LS, making notes and learning about what damage an affair really does to a person and marriage. I found the 180 list and implemented it. I told my wife I did not trust her, I told her I was still in pain about her affair and moved into another bed room. She came to me to tell the bare bones facts. That took about 10 minutes. I told her it would not be a one time talk and that her story would bring up other questions. I have asked her for an hour to talk about it again. Thank you. I guess the first question before trying to come up with some questions is, what was this "one more lie"? did she cheat again after the reconciliation? If so, forget about questions and just end the marriage. she obviously has no plans of being faithful and can understand why you are a "hot head". With a repeat cheat, its understandable (with the exception of it becoming physical) if not, what was it?
Author JRoy Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 Open ended questions so that they will communicate MORE. No judgements. Just listen. Spark - thank you for some great advice. I appreciate this very much. I think sometime this week end we will be taking time to start some discussion.
Author JRoy Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 I guess the first question before trying to come up with some questions is, what was this "one more lie"? did she cheat again after the reconciliation? I am really embarrassed to admit this, but there was a very strong indication that she had another affair. And at the time I went into my denial mode and just went blindly on. Shortly after she went through cancer and treatment. What lead to reopening and dealing with the first affair was a lie about finances and how when she admitted to it that "I should have known she was lying". There is quite a bit of time between these 3 events. My emotions just started falling apart like a house of cards. This is when last year I started seeing an IC. It has helped, but is painful.
Steen719 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 So the three events are chronologically? #1. old affair #2. more recent affair #3. cancer and tx What were the bare boned facts, if that is not too painful to tell?
jnj express Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Did you ever get to the deep down CORE WHY, of her A.---there may have been problems, but she had no right to cheat, so why did she actually need to satisfy herself with another Did you ever discuss why she wouldn't discuss or communicate to/with you, what was bothering her Why did she take another man to her, instead of trying to work things out What was her thinking as she went day after day to her boss, knowing full well she was wrecking her mge Those questions alone, and the answers they should bring will lead you into other questions As for you---what lead you to believe she had the 2nd A., and why did you do nothing about it By the way, is your wife close to you in age Are you gonna be able to finish out your days with her, or are you at the point now where, you might wanna end your mge., and go into your golden years alone-----you got a lot to think about
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 You said "I was sure I wanted to end the marriage". If so, do you really want to go through the agony of more questions & lies? Can you just be indifferent, un-caring, and get out of it? There is no point (except may be u really need closure?) of spending so much effort on a doomed relationship.
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 So the three events are chronologically? #1. old affair #2. more recent affair #3. cancer and tx What were the bare boned facts, if that is not too painful to tell? Her short and to the point facts were: She lost weight and was in terrific shape; She got a part time job. MOST of the people she worked with were younger than her. She flirted with the manager. Her words: "I was unhappy with the marriage, and her manager was unhappy with his marriage." She was in the stock room, the manager came in, closed the door and made the first move by kissing her. She responded and soon they were making it a point to be in the stock room at the same time. Then it 'just' happened that they were alone after closing and had sex right there on the floor. She went to his house twice and had sex both times (His wife was out of the country at the time).
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 Did you ever get to the deep down CORE WHY, of her A.---there may have been problems, but she had no right to cheat, so why did she actually need to satisfy herself with another Did you ever discuss why she wouldn't discuss or communicate to/with you, what was bothering her The wisdom of the times assumed that a wife had an affair because of some failing of the husband to meet her needs. This is what I was being told (and believed) by IC, MC, friends, relatives and people in our church. My goal was to reconcile. So I worked on being a better husband and father. And I remember CLEARLY asking my wife for details (at the time) and was told "it was none of my business." I never asked again. Now I find that all I did was to stuff & deny. Why did she take another man to her, instead of trying to work things out What was her thinking as she went day after day to her boss, knowing full well she was wrecking her mge Those questions alone, and the answers they should bring will lead you into other questions As for you---what lead you to believe she had the 2nd A., and why did you do nothing about it see the link. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t235238/ By the way, is your wife close to you in age I am about 6 years older. At the she was 26 and was 32. Are you gonna be able to finish out your days with her, or are you at the point now where, you might wanna end your mge., and go into your golden years alone-----you got a lot to think about I want to stay married. But there are good and bad days. I went to IC last year and pushed for her to do the same. She is now seeing an IC twice a month. I have not asked her any specifics about her sessions, but my gut tells me she is trying to work out her side of the street. I think that's the reason she told me what she has so far.
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 You said "I was sure I wanted to end the marriage". If so, do you really want to go through the agony of more questions & lies? Can you just be indifferent, un-caring, and get out of it? There is no point (except may be u really need closure?) of spending so much effort on a doomed relationship. I am going on some advice from the IC I was seeing last year which is to address past issues that I did not do at the time. The real issue, I have been told, is TRUST. The issue was not about sex. My head understands the words, but the words don't add up emotionally when it gets to my heart. It sure feels like it WAS about sex. As far as being "indifferent, un-caring" I assume you mean can I just sit and listen to my wife recount 'her story'. I think I can. Its late and Im not sure I am making since, if that's the case, I apologize. I do so appreciate your comments.
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 Last year when I was seeing an IC, I also discovered this web site and It has been a huge help. Through this site I discovered books by Peggy Vaughan, Richard Alan and Phil DeLuca. They opened up a whole new insight. Namely, my wife's affair was NOT MY FAULT! The other major help I got from this site was the '180 list'. I started following it in January and I believe it is most responsible for my wife coming around to the point of being able to discuss her affair with me. I asked my wife to go over her story again. I told her I would like about an hour so I can take notes and ask questions. That was supposed to have happened this past weekend. It didn't. I think it didn't happen because not only did 'life' get in the way, we (I) may be doing some elephant-in-the-room kind of thing. Our history of conflict avoidance is legendary. My point is that at least there has been some movement. Its a start. LS is responsible for this, and I am grateful.
bigmomma1974 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 i usually read a lot of threads here and try to help where I can. I ve noticed that alot of people on the infidelty thread always ask WHY the affair. Is there always a why/ what if it was a 1 time thing a mistake, what if this person made the other person feel special and needed. I started reading these threads because I get thoughts to cheat, not with any one certain person, just was thinkink that it would be a paybay back to my husband for his lies. He didnt cheat but I wanted him to feel the way I felt. However after reading what an affair does to a marraige I can't even think like that ever again. I wouldnt want to put my husband or kids through that. I dont see how one can evere heal but it seems your taking time to make it work. I applaud you, you must really love your wife. I hope things work out for you and that you find happiness.I read once that some people say it can take years to get past the affair. Hard work and dedication to make it work is a start. If you wouldnt mind sharing where did you get the 180 list or did i miss that.
oldguy Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 You have to figure out the 20 burning questions for yourself. I agree, these questions are more for you than your wife, however suggestions that 'hit home' for you from others are not a bad thing. Am I understanding you correctly, are you wanting specific details from an affair? If so, I question why a counselor would suggest that, it has always been believed that is just fueling the fire. Unless he/she, (your counselor) has some unusual idea. I always found that to be mostly counter productive. As a side note; you are not responsible for your wife's affair, that was a moral decision. That's like saying an abused spouse deserved to be abused. Things have thankfully changed over the past 30 years.
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 If you wouldnt mind sharing where did you get the 180 list or did i miss that. I originally found it here in LS: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t236182/?highlight=Michelle+Weiner+Davis
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 oldguy - My counselor said that I have the right to ask questions. I have also read many posts in LS that also say the same thing. Some books on the subject say the same. Its usually followed by a disclaimer about making sure I really want to know the answer. 30 years ago, except for Peggy Vaughan, it certainly was considered 'fueling the fire'. One relative at the time chastised me for "airing dirty laundry - its just not proper". Those words still ring in my ear!
StoneCold Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Did your counselor tell you what you are supposed to do with the answers to these questions? Heres my concern..... you ask 20 questions and you get 20 answers. But the problem is some of the answers you get you may not see as "answers" because you dont understand them...then you get pissed; she then gets frustrated and pissed and things explode because in as much as you dont understand them...they are her answers.
Author JRoy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Posted August 3, 2011 Did your counselor tell you what you are supposed to do with the answers to these questions? Heres my concern..... you ask 20 questions and you get 20 answers. But the problem is some of the answers you get you may not see as "answers" because you dont understand them...then you get pissed; she then gets frustrated and pissed and things explode because in as much as you dont understand them...they are her answers. Without being long winded to answer you: I want 'her' story. I want to sit, listen and not be reactive (try not to be reactive). We have only the one session where she outlined some facts of her affair for me. It seemed to be a positive action for the both of us. I got a couple of details I didn't know and it also raised some more questions. And that is what I was looking for and expected. I would like to exhaust as many unknowns as I can think of - not be reactive - and move myself towards healing. Much of what goes on in my head is moving from denial to acceptance of reality. I have spent more than 30 years NOT DEALING with the A and in my mind, any truth I can get helps me finally put the matter to bed (pun intended).
Spark1111 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Ok. Generally cheaters share these traits: conflict-avoidance, poor communication and coping skills and low self-esteem. So, instead of finding the courage to address issues in a non-judgemental manner, they run and hide or blame the partner or the marriage, have an affair, affairs, seeking what the want but do not have the tools to confidently identify or express. NOTHING makes that easier to continue blaming the spouse or marriage than an angry, judgemental partner after the discovery of an affair. But hey? Who can blame the BS? They have every right to their anger. It is how we manage it that determines the health and quality of our communication....and honest and kind communications about our feelings is the key to a successful marriage. So, after the pain of infidelity, it is often up to, (yep, once again) the BS to create a climate of trust where the WS can start to express their feelings. Fair? Of course not! But it is a choice: You can be right (and of course you are!) or, if you love her, you can be happy. MY fWS grew up with a manipulative, angry and somewhat controlling mother. He felt, no matter what, it was never good enough. He began to project that onto me and our marriage; that nothing he did was good enough although there was no truth to that in our relationship. It was all about perception. He then crashed into his AP who told him how wonderful, kind, generous, etc. he was and the rest is history. THAT is his WHY and it took a lot of patience, IC, MC and changing our behaviors to have a better relationship today. He had to stop seeing me as the mean mommy. He had to stop blaming all others for his unhappiness. We had to make a concerted effort to treat each other with only kindness and respect. Wasn't easy. It's not for cowards are people who need to be "right." But it was worth it. Good luck.
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 I am going on some advice from the IC I was seeing last year which is to address past issues that I did not do at the time. The real issue, I have been told, is TRUST. The issue was not about sex. My head understands the words, but the words don't add up emotionally when it gets to my heart. It sure feels like it WAS about sex. As far as being "indifferent, un-caring" I assume you mean can I just sit and listen to my wife recount 'her story'. I think I can. Its late and Im not sure I am making since, if that's the case, I apologize. I do so appreciate your comments. Hmm .. i guess my question is not clear. Do you want to end your marriage? You sound so. If so, why would you care about "trust" anymore. If you break up with her, you don't need to trust her anymore.
jnj express Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Can you really put this all to bed------ You say you think she had another A.---somewhere in the last 30 yrs Actually you don't really know what she has done to you---what you do know is from early on she has had a propensity to cheat on you---and hide it very well, or bully you into doing nothing For your sake now that you know the facts, I hope the visions will not come with them----tho unfortuanetly the visions do go with the territory
drifter777 Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Without being long winded to answer you: I want 'her' story. I want to sit, listen and not be reactive (try not to be reactive). We have only the one session where she outlined some facts of her affair for me. It seemed to be a positive action for the both of us. I got a couple of details I didn't know and it also raised some more questions. And that is what I was looking for and expected. I would like to exhaust as many unknowns as I can think of - not be reactive - and move myself towards healing. Much of what goes on in my head is moving from denial to acceptance of reality. I have spent more than 30 years NOT DEALING with the A and in my mind, any truth I can get helps me finally put the matter to bed (pun intended). As you have discovered, there is no statute of limitation on infidelity. Some people on this forum may say something like "30 years? You need to move on" or words to that effect. I say that for whatever reason you are now ready to face your wife's cheating, so now is when your work begins. The feelings you have repressed for so long need to be addressed. Maybe the first thing you should do is talk to a counselor regarding why you think now is the time to face all of this. I suggest that because when you have a good idea what you are trying to resolve you will be able to ask your wife more direct questions and, in general, know what you are looking for. You began your original post saying that you did not want to end your marriage. I really don't think you should be fencing yourself in as you simply cannot predict where your personal healing will lead you. Oh, and personal healing should be your ultimate goal as forgiveness and reconciliation are secondary to healing the wound caused by your wife's betrayal. Once you begin to heal you will be in a much better position to access your marriage and how you want to live the rest of your life. Good luck & keep us posted.
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