Incidences that might've lead you to not taking action and winding up in the FZ.

[somedude81]

Thanks for clearing things up zengirl.

"Let's have lunch" to me is the same as "Let's grab lunch."

 

"Let me take you out to lunch" would seem more date-like/romantic.

I guess I can try using those words next time. Honestly, what words I use are pretty much meaningless to me. I'll get more into that later.

 

But people have lunch with friends all the time. It's a friendly term.

But getting lunch with a guy you barely know?

 

Does the girl ever wonder why this guy wants to have lunch with her? I really hope her first guess isn't that he wants to make a new friend.

 

When I do it, it's because I had a good time talking to her in class and I want to spend more time with her and get to know her better.

 

 

And I think phrasing matters a lot. It always did to me when I was young and analyzing male behavior. Men don't think about it, I agree, but women do. And talk about it. A lot.

Heh, that's weird.

 

As I was saying earlier, the words don't matter at all to me; other than making sure it doesn't sound too formal. My only goal is to get her out of the class. Also when I'm nervous I tend to stumble on my words so I try to use as few words as possible. It's easier for me to say "Lets have lunch" vs. "Let me take you out to lunch."

 

1. Young girls are likely to be afraid of the word date with a guy they don't want to go on a date with. So that could be happening. (Sorry.) They aren't assertive yet to say no, in many cases, and feel comfy with it.

 

2. They might be afraid of "big, serious" relationships but that comes more from the overall tone than anything. I'm not saying you should say "I want to date you" (that's weird in most contexts) but you have to make sure you don't do something a friend would do if you don't want to be considered a friend.

#2 is why I try to avoid using date and making things seem serious before we know anything about each other.

 

I don't really know things that only a guy friend would do with a female friend

 

 

But people joke and have fun with their friends too. Really. I joke and have fun with my male friends.

If I've only known a girl for a few days, we aren't friends.

 

Are you calling the girls attractive? If you say "You're cute" or something, then it's on them;

Should I be calling girls attractive? No that is not something I do.

 

 

But if you just think anytime you have a fun, playful conversation with a woman she thinks it means romance, that's untrue. You have to do or say something romantic for her to know that your intentions lie there.

Ugh, enough with romance. I'm not thinking romance. If I think a girl is cute and we have fun, she's a possibility and I'd like to get to know her better. That's it.

 

 

 

24 falls into the territory I set. I dated older guys in college mostly (whether they were in or out of college) and I expected them to have their act together more than the guys my age. So I took the way they phrased things more seriously than the younger guys. So did all my friends. FWIW.

Heh, more phrasing.

 

Well, that's fine, though most 18 year old girls I meet are giggly. So that's why I used that example.

18's a little too young for me.

 

No. I mean, if you gave off a total player vibe all the time, maybe, but from what I know of you, I'm doubting that's an issue you have. Many girls nowadays grow up having male friends.

No, I definitely don't give off a player vibe, though I wish I knew how to

 

But a guy she doesn't know at all, shouldn't be treated the same way she treats her male friends. That just seems really naive.

 

 

Many, many girls definitely have the belief that men don't want serious relationships (which is why I suspect they seem to have an air to them that they have some aversion to relationships; I suspect most young girls DO want serious relationships but DON'T want anyone to know they want one; weird, I know), but they don't have the belief that no male wants to be their friend. Not many women my age or younger that I've met have that belief at least.

Pretending that they don't want a serious relationship when they actually do, yeah that is weird. I could go more into that on a later time.

 

But when a guy takes the time to get to know a girl and invite her to do things with him, her first impression should not be that he wants to be friend.

 

That said, young girls totally find BFs through "Friends first" in many cases. You just can't go into a "Friends first" situation thinking it's romantic yet. It could be, if you escalate romance and interest. But it may not work out. That's like anything, though. But I definitely knew girls in college who would be friends with a guy and then date him later, but they thought he was cute the whole time, it just took awhile for one of them to finally 'try something' if that makes sense.

I don't think I'm doing things the friends first route. I'm actively trying to avoid becoming a girls friend.

 

That's why I'm trying to show interest without being too serious.

 

So relationships start in all different ways. My advice on being uber-clear is mostly for people who find their intentions commonly misunderstood. If it's MULTIPLE people misunderstanding you on a consistent basis, it's likely the problem is yours and not theirs.

Yeah that is something to consider.

 

That's why I'm here trying to find the best way to do things

 

Chemistry is not always equal on both sides. You don't really know if another person is feeling the same kind of chemistry as you unless they tell you so. I've met guys who thought we had chemistry where I just thought they were nice enough guys. And vice versa. That's why it's on the person who's feeling it to put it out there in a more clear way if they expect it to be clear.

Bah, chemistry. I'm not going to get into it.

When I was in college (less than a decade ago), we went out to dinner. We were kind of broke (well, I never was as I worked a ton + was on a full scholarship and then some) but we still went out and did things. We went bowling, went to dinner at moderately priced restaurants, saw movies, etc. Nobody's saying take her to the Four Seasons or anything.

 

Most of my college first dates were actually dinner dates. . .

That's interesting. I wouldn't think that dinner dates would be first dates in college. Even a movie is kind of bad.

[zengirl]

First off, dinner dates are fine. They don't blow anyone's mind, sure, but they're a good staple. It's a place you can sit and talk. Movie dates are terrible 1st dates. You sit awkwardly side by side, unable to communicate, for two hours. It's weird.

 

You confuse me so much, somedude81. Some of these things seem contradictory to me, but a few points:

 

But getting lunch with a guy you barely know?

 

Does the girl ever wonder why this guy wants to have lunch with her? I really hope her first guess isn't that he wants to make a new friend.

 

When I do it, it's because I had a good time talking to her in class and I want to spend more time with her and get to know her better.

 

Except for the fact that she's a girl you find cute (which you don't mention here but I'm assuming, based on your other stuff posted in this thread), that's precisely WHY people want to be someone's friend, so I'm so confused.

 

If someone wanted to have lunch with me, male or female, I'd assume it was because they wanted to spend more time with me and get to know me better. . . which is, yes, part of how dating starts, but it's also how friendship starts as well. Whether the person is male or female is barely a blip on my radar at this point, because I will be friends with gay or straight men, gay or straight women, and I have no idea if the person is even attached or gay or only dates blondes or whatever. If I have no reason to attach romance to the idea, I wouldn't attach it. A reason can be a "vibe" of course. But there's only so much I can do to explain how to project/how to sense a "vibe" as that's not really describable.

 

I don't really know things that only a guy friend would do with a female friend

 

Hang around her, get to know her, do things with her that they like to do and have in common. Like all friendships, it really depends on the people in it. I mean there are certainly things you DON'T do in a male/female friendship that are in a same sex friendship for some people, I don't believe they are that many. At least not in my experience. And certainly friends of all kinds eat meals together.

 

If I've only known a girl for a few days, we aren't friends.

 

Well, theoretically every friend you know wasn't your friend at first; hence the term "making friends."

 

Ugh, enough with romance. I'm not thinking romance. If I think a girl is cute and we have fun, she's a possibility and I'd like to get to know her better. That's it.

 

Then you want to make a friend. You can't have it both ways. You cannot expect her to "get" that you want to date her but really be thinking "I'm not thinking romance." That's what dating is. I'm so confused. No wonder people don't get what you're laying down; your intentions don't even seem clear here.

 

Now, I'm guessing you're thinking you want to get to know her to see if she's someone you're interested in dating. . . which is basically what "friends first" is, as I said below. I think friends first can be kind of drama fraught (usually when one person determines the other is dating material and the other determines the opposite) but I also know relationships that have come from them. While I've dated a friend, it wasn't really a situation like that. We'd been friends and in the same circle for years, and we happened to be in the same city finally. So I can't say much for or against FF style dating as it's not a style I'm uber-familiar with.

 

But a guy she doesn't know at all, shouldn't be treated the same way she treats her male friends. That just seems really naive.

 

A guy or girl I don't know who is being friendly and who could potentially be a friend will be treated pretty much the same (male or female) by me. Not like my existing friends, who KNOW me, but not like a potential suitor if no romantic indicators exist.

 

But when a guy takes the time to get to know a girl and invite her to do things with him, her first impression should not be that he wants to be friend.

 

Why not? That's what you do with friends. How else would you make friends if you didn't get to know each other and do things together?

 

I don't think I'm doing things the friends first route. I'm actively trying to avoid becoming a girls friend.

 

But you're not thinking romance!

[Cracker Jack]

I can honestly say I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to dating women. Most of the times where the chances appeared to be there, they often thought it was just "having fun" and stuff. I dunno how to go about dating at all, and it's pretty frustrating.

 

Anyway, if I happen to meet a nice woman, talk to her for a bit, get her #, and later invite her over to cook her dinner (is this a bad idea?) or something along those lines, do I have to let her know that this invite will be a date? Just imagining myself saying "this is a date" makes me feel like an idiot.

[zengirl]

Cracker Jack -

 

You don't HAVE to say it's a date. But you can't try to make it all casual and not date like and not be thinking romance and then expect a girl to know you're interested in her romantically. That's confusing. I think that's somedude's issue (or part of it). I just said saying it's a date is not really all that scary to most people who date. I would never be scared off from a guy I'd go out with because he called it a date. And it is certainly clear. There are 1000 other ways to make it clear in this thread.

 

However, to your question, I'd find it weird if anyone I just met, but especially a guy, invited me to his house right off (unless it was for a party/BBQ with many people present). But I would definitely take away romantic intention. But in a "He's kind of creepy" way.

[fortyninethousand322]

I can honestly say I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to dating women. Most of the times where the chances appeared to be there, they often thought it was just "having fun" and stuff. I dunno how to go about dating at all, and it's pretty frustrating.

 

Anyway, if I happen to meet a nice woman, talk to her for a bit, get her #, and later invite her over to cook her dinner (is this a bad idea?) or something along those lines, do I have to let her know that this invite will be a date? Just imagining myself saying "this is a date" makes me feel like an idiot.

 

Yup. Precisely how I feel. Part of the reason why I tried online dating because I felt like it's a situation in which "dating' is kind of implied.

 

@zengirl: I think what somedude is trying to say is that when he meets a girl he doesn't want to be friends with her (as in friends only), but he does want to assess her potential as a dating prospect. Basically he wants to see if he's attracted to her before trying to "date" her. At least that's if I'm reading his posts correctly.

[Cracker Jack]

Well, I always think about romance when pursuing a woman. The thing that's always plagued me here is that it's been one-sided, with them not feeling the romance. I'm really trying to change this, or at least have a better idea of helping myself here.

 

I want to show a woman I'm really into her without having to be all touchy with her--mainly because I don't want to give her the impression that I'm just trying to sleep with her. And thanks for your honest opinion. I know I'm desperate when it comes to dating, but the last thing I want to do is be considered a creep. Guess that idea is scrapped, then.

 

fortynine: I tried the online dating as well, but I suck at that, too. Damn, this stuff is so complicated sometimes.

[zengirl]

@zengirl: I think what somedude is trying to say is that when he meets a girl he doesn't want to be friends with her (as in friends only), but he does want to assess her potential as a dating prospect. Basically he wants to see if he's attracted to her before trying to "date" her. At least that's if I'm reading his posts correctly.

 

That's what I think he wants too, and its essentially what Friends First is. I don't do FF dating (I think men like it more than women, honestly; women only tend to want to do FF situations if they just got out of a relationship and aren't sure what they're looking for and feel generally insecure about dating; men tend to think it's better to be "casual" at first but I could be wrong), as I said. I've seen it really work out and I've seen it really not work out, but I don't think in FF dating you can ever wonder why the other person saw you as a Friend (unless you got to the making out stuff or something) since that's essentially what you are if a FF situation doesn't become a relationship/physical situation.

 

It's like he thinks he can have dating in his headspace -- I'm not trying to date her yet, but can't she see I might be trying to date her -- translate to her headspace. And that doesn't work, IMO. If you want to put an idea in someone else's headspace, you need very clear intentions and you have to put them out there clearly.

 

Which doesn't mean you cannot get to know someone before asking them out, but don't be surprised if they aren't thinking about it as a precursor but just as "getting to know someone" end-stop.

[somedude81]

Heh, I can see how some of the things I'm saying are confusing.

 

The first thing I need to get out there, is that it's odd for a guy to actively pursue a female for just friendship. I don't know about other guys, but I would never invite out a girl to do something with me if she wasn't an already established friend or I wasn't attracted to her. Frankly the only new girls I even talk to are ones that I'm attracted to.

 

So the thought of having a girl do something with me would only be for one reason, unless we were already friends.

 

Though from what I'm seeing on this board, women don't think that way. Gender seems to be irrelevant when making new friends. Which is the complete opposite from how I see it. I wouldn't be surprised if most men share my thoughts.

 

The best way to sum up how a man thinks is, "I'm talking to you because you're hot." Of course I can't actually say that.

Hang around her, get to know her, do things with her that they like to do and have in common. Like all friendships, it really depends on the people in it. I mean there are certainly things you DON'T do in a male/female friendship that are in a same sex friendship for some people, I don't believe they are that many. At least not in my experience. And certainly friends of all kinds eat meals together.

The first time I ask out a girl, I use eating together as an excuse to sit down and talk. Lunch is cheap and casual. I basically think of it as a pre-date. If lunch goes well, I try to schedule a real date. I just have be brave enough to ask if there is any mutual interest and there have been a couple of girls where I was to scared to do it. And that ended up leading down the wrong path.

 

Then you want to make a friend. You can't have it both ways. You cannot expect her to "get" that you want to date her but really be thinking "I'm not thinking romance." That's what dating is. I'm so confused. No wonder people don't get what you're laying down; your intentions don't even seem clear here.

To me, romance means roses, expensive dinners, I love you's and stuff like that. There's no romance before we've kissed.

 

That may be a reason why I'm not doing so good on the dating thing.

[somedude81]

@zengirl: I think what somedude is trying to say is that when he meets a girl he doesn't want to be friends with her (as in friends only), but he does want to assess her potential as a dating prospect. Basically he wants to see if he's attracted to her before trying to "date" her. At least that's if I'm reading his posts correctly.

Pretty much spot on, though I want to see how well we get along before I ask her out.

 

It pretty much eliminates the possibility of having weird awkward dates.

 

The alternative seems to be asking out somebody after speaking to somebody for a couple of minutes. I don't have a clue who she is at that point.

[zengirl]

Heh, I can see how some of the things I'm saying are confusing.

 

The first thing I need to get out there, is that it's odd for a guy to actively pursue a female for just friendship. I don't know about other guys, but I would never invite out a girl to do something with me if she wasn't an already established friend or I wasn't attracted to her. Frankly the only new girls I even talk to are ones that I'm attracted to.

 

So the thought of having a girl do something with me would only be for one reason, unless we were already friends.

 

But how can girls be "already friends" if you never hang out with girls unless they're already friends? This confuses me.

 

There are definitely some behaviors that are more date-like than others, but it's a spectrum with plenty of potential for confusion. For instance, last time I was single, I had a new male friend (who I actually found attractive) I met through an activity who I didn't realize for awhile was interested in me because while he invited me to do things, he never did anything else romantic. And the first few things were things I mentioned doing already to him when we in that activity. So, I thought he wanted new friends, and I introduced him around and even tried to set him up with some of my friends. I figured if he was into me, he would've asked me out, or given SOME kind of vibe off to me, so I never considered him interested in me. By the time he expressed his interest, I was dating someone else, albeit not seriously yet. I was so interested I even thought to look him up after that fizzled, but he had a new GF (and good for him). That said, the idea that someone else EVER should know what you're thinking if you haven't expressed it is murky. The onus is on you to express your intentions, just as it's on me to express mine.

 

Though from what I'm seeing on this board, women don't think that way.

 

Well, some women probably have no male friends, so I'm sure not all think like me. Some do, some don't. I think it varies more by age and experiences than anything else.

 

The best way to sum up how a man thinks is, "I'm talking to you because you're hot." Of course I can't actually say that.

 

I disagree. As I've had actual male friends who really were just friends as well. So not all men think the same either. That's why we have to actually express what we're thinking, rather than thinking the other person will "just know." (And apparently men and women both fail at this! Here I thought women were the big offenders of "Why don't you know what I'm thinking?!?!")

 

In using the words "romance" -- I simply meant romantic or dating intentions. Not like flowers and candy and gushy bears that say I luv u or whatever.

[fortyninethousand322]

Heh, I can see how some of the things I'm saying are confusing.

 

The first thing I need to get out there, is that it's odd for a guy to actively pursue a female for just friendship. I don't know about other guys, but I would never invite out a girl to do something with me if she wasn't an already established friend or I wasn't attracted to her. Frankly the only new girls I even talk to are ones that I'm attracted to.

 

So the thought of having a girl do something with me would only be for one reason, unless we were already friends.

 

Though from what I'm seeing on this board, women don't think that way. Gender seems to be irrelevant when making new friends. Which is the complete opposite from how I see it. I wouldn't be surprised if most men share my thoughts.

 

The best way to sum up how a man thinks is, "I'm talking to you because you're hot." Of course I can't actually say that.

The first time I ask out a girl, I use eating together as an excuse to sit down and talk. Lunch is cheap and casual. I basically think of it as a pre-date. If lunch goes well, I try to schedule a real date. I just have be brave enough to ask if there is any mutual interest and there have been a couple of girls where I was to scared to do it. And that ended up leading down the wrong path.

 

To me, romance means roses, expensive dinners, I love you's and stuff like that. There's no romance before we've kissed.

 

That may be a reason why I'm not doing so good on the dating thing.

 

Well...I'm kind of with you on this. I would be totally willing to pursue women for friendship if I was already doing ok with the ladies. Basically if I wasn't a completely inexperienced 23 year old, sure making lady friends is ok. But, I think I would like to get the monkey off my back so to speak, and have a girlfriend (hell, even kissing a girl would be nice). Being that you're in a very similar situation, I think that's where it stems from. Maybe if you were in a relationship or had a few of them already you'd be ok with making female friends.

 

Unfortunately, most "normal" people tend to have a good balance. They have some history of relationships, more or less know what they're looking for and aren't in a hurry to turn acquaintances into relationships. Women aren't inside your head (nor mine) so they have no idea whether or not you asking them out for coffee is platonic or more because they have no idea what your intentions are, and unless you are lucky enough to find someone who's already head over heels for you, your signals are likely to get crossed.

[Cracker Jack]

^I think that's what it pretty much comes down to. If you have good balance, stuff like this will likely come natural. If you're inexperienced, it's gonna tend to be tougher--since you're going to actively worry about falling into the zone, or if you're making your interest known, whereas someone who's "been there, done that" couldn't care less. Just gotta keep working it at.

[somedude81]

But how can girls be "already friends" if you never hang out with girls unless they're already friends? This confuses me.

Either they were coworkers or classmates that I had a few classes with and we studied together and just ended up talking. There were also girls who were friends with a girl that I liked and I kind of ended up becoming friends with her friends.

 

I didn't approach any of those girls the way I did girls I was interested in .

There are definitely some behaviors that are more date-like than others, but it's a spectrum with plenty of potential for confusion. For instance, last time I was single, I had a new male friend (who I actually found attractive) I met through an activity who I didn't realize for awhile was interested in me because while he invited me to do things, he never did anything else romantic.

I bet that he thought inviting you out was a "romantic" gesture. A way that he showed his interest.

 

I disagree. As I've had actual male friends who really were just friends as well. So not all men think the same either. That's why we have to actually express what we're thinking, rather than thinking the other person will "just know." (And apparently men and women both fail at this! Here I thought women were the big offenders of "Why don't you know what I'm thinking?!?!")

I'm talking about with girls that I don't know. I just don't try to hold a conversation with a girl I'm not interested in.

 

Heh, yeah I was mistaken in thinking that women know how guys think or what we want. It's no doubt that we are simpler than women, but some things are still confusing.

In using the words "romance" -- I simply meant romantic or dating intentions. Not like flowers and candy and gushy bears that say I luv u or whatever.

Oh good, yeah I was getting that mixed up. Edited July 24, 2011 by somedude81

[irc333]

I don't do FF dating

 

Right, but , I'll be darned....if you look at the headliners of women who place ads on dating sites or IN the main paragraph of their profile, they seem ALWAYS emphasize, "Friends First!.....and well see what happens."

 

THis one woman I went out with, wasn't even for a meal, but she wanted to get an Orange Julius, I offered to pay for it, I had no problem paying 3 bucks for her drink.

 

And she stopped me as I was going for my wallet and said she preferred to pay her own way.

 

I met her on POF, but she was always emphasizing the FF thing and even wouldn't let me pay for squat. I didn't know she actually meant me not paying for her drink. Weird.

[zengirl]

Either they were coworkers or classmates that I had a few classes with and we studied together and just ended up talking. There were also girls who were friends with a girl that I liked and I kind of ended up becoming friends with her friends.

 

I didn't approach any of those girls the way I did girls I was interested in .

 

Can you illustrate to me with an example the difference between how you'd become friends with a girl from class vs. how you'd approach a girl you might be interested in?

 

It may well be different. The thing is, though, that the way you express interest might be the same way another guy expresses friendship. Trust me, I've THOUGHT a guy was into me when he totally wasn't, too, so it's not like guys are always digging a girl when they talk to them or approach them. Sometimes they really are looking for friends.

 

I bet that he thought inviting you out was a "romantic" gesture. A way that he showed his interest.

 

Well, sure but I hung out with other people from the same group and he'd always invite me in front of them, so other people would come along and such. He and I are professionals in our mid-twenties, and I had no idea what he was doing. His GF now is 20, so perhaps his style is closer to what the kids are doing these days or something, I don't know.

 

At any rate, it's not knowing "how guys think" as all guys don't think like you and all girls don't think like me and there are a variety of social styles out there. If you're experiencing the same confusion repeatedly, however, there's obviously something a bit too murky in yours that's hindering efficacy.

 

Right, but , I'll be darned....if you look at the headliners of women who place ads on dating sites or IN the main paragraph of their profile, they seem ALWAYS emphasize, "Friends First!.....and well see what happens."

 

THis one woman I went out with, wasn't even for a meal, but she wanted to get an Orange Julius, I offered to pay for it, I had no problem paying 3 bucks for her drink.

 

And she stopped me as I was going for my wallet and said she preferred to pay her own way.

 

I met her on POF, but she was always emphasizing the FF thing and even wouldn't let me pay for squat. I didn't know she actually meant me not paying for her drink. Weird.

 

That's because a lot of girls on dating sites just got out of relationships or bad FWB situations or whatever and have some things to work through. I've never met a girl over the age of say 19 who did FF and hadn't just gotten out of something/wasn't dealing with something etc. Girls usually do it when they're not totally emotionally available. I'm sure there are exceptions to this but I see this pattern a lot. Whereas a lot of guys, especially younger guys, don't do strict FF (like they don't CALL it that) but they try to "hang out" first.

[irc333]

Yes, I have noticed (other than the married people posing a singles) are the actual SINGLE people that have just gotten out of a relationship

 

OR even better, they've gotten into a quarrel with a long term boyfriend, and start dating other guys on the dating site, typically using a dating site solely for the fulfillment of selfish needs.

 

Then, after a few dates with guys, they go back to their long term boyfriend once again.

 

Sometimes it's an on again off again relationship....they use the dating site just as an outlet, and dating sites seems to be crawling with those types.

 

 

 

Can you illustrate to me with an example the difference between how you'd become friends with a girl from class vs. how you'd approach a girl you might be interested in?

 

It may well be different. The thing is, though, that the way you express interest might be the same way another guy expresses friendship. Trust me, I've THOUGHT a guy was into me when he totally wasn't, too, so it's not like guys are always digging a girl when they talk to them or approach them. Sometimes they really are looking for friends.

 

 

 

Well, sure but I hung out with other people from the same group and he'd always invite me in front of them, so other people would come along and such. He and I are professionals in our mid-twenties, and I had no idea what he was doing. His GF now is 20, so perhaps his style is closer to what the kids are doing these days or something, I don't know.

 

At any rate, it's not knowing "how guys think" as all guys don't think like you and all girls don't think like me and there are a variety of social styles out there. If you're experiencing the same confusion repeatedly, however, there's obviously something a bit too murky in yours that's hindering efficacy.

 

 

 

That's because a lot of girls on dating sites just got out of relationships or bad FWB situations or whatever and have some things to work through. I've never met a girl over the age of say 19 who did FF and hadn't just gotten out of something/wasn't dealing with something etc. Girls usually do it when they're not totally emotionally available. I'm sure there are exceptions to this but I see this pattern a lot. Whereas a lot of guys, especially younger guys, don't do strict FF (like they don't CALL it that) but they try to "hang out" first.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Hmmmm....Why does it seem so many people want 'Instant Gratification!' Too many games and too much instant gratification. What happened to the getting to know people. I tend to believe this is why we see so many heart broken filled relationships. I completely agree with many points of Carhill.

Instant gratification leads to two people having sex....confusion spawns from neither really knowing one another and, 'sex,' is the only commonality among interests, personalities, ect.

All this leads to 2 people either consciously or subconsciously needing to 'change,' the other person. You cannot change people, as they cannot change you in most circumstances....these changes can occur but must come out of mutuality, friendship, and time to know onr another.

Most relationship starting are just cars going 180 toward a brick wall.

 

I agree with both you and Carhill.

 

'Instant Gratification' in relationships is like going to McDonalds instead of taking the time to make a home cooked meal when you are hungry. Great if you are starving... but can't make a steady diet out of it... and only creates bad eating habits.

 

I'm sorry the original poster hasn't found anyone yet using his approach. It is easy to believe in that situation that he is doing something wrong... when he isn't.

 

I still think it is best to take time to get to know people. There are worse things than not being in a relationship... and that is being in a crappy one or one that does significant damage in terms of unintended consequences.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Yup. Precisely how I feel. Part of the reason why I tried online dating because I felt like it's a situation in which "dating' is kind of implied.

 

@zengirl: I think what somedude is trying to say is that when he meets a girl he doesn't want to be friends with her (as in friends only), but he does want to assess her potential as a dating prospect. Basically he wants to see if he's attracted to her before trying to "date" her. At least that's if I'm reading his posts correctly.

 

When I was dating online, and people listed 'new friends' as an option, I took them seriously... that platonic friendship was an option and that they actually have REAL, legitimate friendships with the opposite sex.

 

If all they wanted was to correspond with people with romantic intentions... or be sized up for romantic intentions (whether that was a one-night stand or LTR), then friggin' say so. Don't list 'new friends' as an option if being 'friend-zoned' is a significant concern.

 

There are few things more frustrating than investing time with anyone who can't make their intentions clear... I ended communication with someone I really enjoyed talking to, but was too remote to date and said so, because my attempts to get his support as a 'friend' usually ended with some update of his romantic status. Well, NSS (no sh*t Sherlock)... I assumed and took for granted he was dating people and supported him. Um, like real friends do. Unfortunately, it didn't work the other way around. He was only my 'friend' when he thought there might be romantic potential and he didn't have anyone in the picture.

 

So I felt lied to when he DID say that 'new friends' was an option... yes, on a so-called dating site.

[grkBoy]

I haven't read through the five pages, so if I'm off the conversation here I apologize.

 

I will say every girl is different, and they look at guys differently. Some guys put out the charisma, charm, looks, and excitement that make women instantly judge him as "I'd date him" or "I'd f**k him". Some others unfortunately end up instantly as "I wouldn't touch him".

 

However, many guys simply end up in the "maybe" or "lukewarm" pile. They're not necessarily ruled out, but the girl isn't feeling that instant sparks/chemistry she wants with a guy to see him as for dating...but she's not writing off yet because she wants to get to know him a bit and see where it goes.

 

So when you meet a girl, how do you know if you have to "seal the deal quickly" or "take your time"? The first reality is you have to honestly judge how the first meet went.

 

So say irc333 meets a girl at a picnic. They chat a bit, share a few laughs, but she also ends up separating from him for periods of time to chat with others. Maybe she went to use the bathroom, came back, and started chatting with other people and not irc333.

 

How should be view this? He should see things as she might think he's charming, but she's not enticed or excited enough to make him a priority. NOW...if she came back, plopped herself down next to him, and spent the whole picnic talking mainly to him and barely anyone else...and they seem to click a lot...THEN...he should ask if he could call her.

 

If she gives some excuse not to give her number, and won't offer up an email or tell him to hit her up on meetup or Facebook, then move on. There is no way he'll get anywhere. He was fun for now, but she doesn't fathom even knowing him beyond that picnic. Don't bother.

 

If she won't give a number, but offers her email or says to hit her up on Facebook, then I would say she still dismissed him as "not worthy" but he should still drop her a quick line the next day to say it was wonderful to meet her and he hoped she had a good time. In all actuality she'll probably not even respond and perhaps reject his Friend Request. The email/Facebook thing most of the time is a ruse to get rid a guy, like handing out a fake number.

 

HOWEVER...she might respond. At that point I'd leave her alone for two days, so you don't come off as eager, then drop her a line to say hi. See if she responds. Maybe she'll respond once or twice and that's it...or you two end up in deep conversation for weeks, and thus it leads to dating.

 

Some of you might think this is bogus, but I've honestly met and dated several women this way. These women were lukewarm on me in the beginning, but enjoyed someone to talk to, and eventually grew to really like me because I was more genuine than the guys who all step up to her.

 

It's a judgement call, but most of the time if she hasn't happily handed you a number, you assume then you won't get anywhere.

 

I don't believe in the idea that a guy has a window of time for better possible results when they're in lukewarm territory. I believe if he tries too soon, she'll gladly slide him into the "no way" column because it's a safer choice for her than taking a chance. You can end up FZed when doing the longer time getting to know you chatting...but that usually results not in him trying fast enough, but more because she's just honestly not into him the more she gets to know him.

 

Why has longer chat worked for me? Part of it was that I could hold an intelligent conversation with these women. I made them feel good about themselves, and came off as charming but different from the guys whom they normally had stepping up. If you have a girl who normally gets hit on by ex-frat boys who think the college mentality will win girls into bed, a guy who can hold a convo will peak their curiosity more.

 

These women I chatted with even dated other guys while chatting with me, but I treated things as friendly with some occasional flirting when I could see they needed to feel attractive. Every time when it led to me dating them it was the same scenario. She was lonely, sick of the guys she normally meets, and wanted to see what I was like in person.

 

I'm not saying this works for everyone, but some guys can instantly make women want them and thus can go from first meet to asking her out right there. Others don't things that easily and thus the girls need to get to know the man beyond what they initially see and hear to find out that he might be wonderful.

 

This goes back to building social capital. I speak from experience...because before I met my girlfriend, I had several women from other states wanting to come to meet me in person and crash at my condo. Maybe it would have just been a fun weekend with no hanky panky and she sleeps in the second bedroom, or maybe we end up a passionate fling, or she ends up moving to my town to start a life with me. Who knows what could have happened...but these women liked me because I was genuine with them, interesting, and came off as different from the guys they normally meet.

[fortyninethousand322]

It's a judgement call, but most of the time if she hasn't happily handed you a number, you assume then you won't get anywhere.

 

Yeah basically. I'll be honest I don't get into the friend zone that often because I don't stick around long enough to get there. I'm usually quick to give up or quick to assume the worst because most of the time that's exactly what happens. Like I said earlier I have no problem being friends with girls, it's just that I'm kind of in the business of getting some dating and relationship experience first so I tend to be a little on the impatient side and less willing to be friends with girls than I would be otherwise.

[dispatch3d]

I go there, pretending I'm interested in watch bands or something...and then I switch the conversation into getting to know her, and she stops dead cold, "Wait a min, did someone send you over hear as a joke?"

 

And I said, "Um...no..why?"

 

And she goes, "Oh, some other guys in the other stores like to play jokes on each other, I figured you hitting on me had to be a joke."

 

 

No, I actually like you and want to go on a date with you. When are you available.

 

easy to game from behind a keyboard

[Monm82]

I wish women would initiate more than they do. I hear so many stories about guys ending up in the friendzone, and missed opportunities. I think dating would be easier, if women would initiate more.