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Incidences that might've lead you to not taking action and winding up in the FZ.

irc333

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somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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BTW I don't use the word grab. Usually it's some form of, Lets go eat, have lunch, do lunch etc. I just typed grab because I'm lazy :p

 

Neither would I say, "Hey Suzy, I think you're really swell. Lets go on a lunch date."

fortyninethousand322 Established Member

fortyninethousand322

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If you're the kind of guy who is often misunderstood, I'd say you should, but I think many men can make a date clear without saying it. However, there are plenty of guys (and I think these are the ones who get misunderstood) who actually pretend at friendship, hold back any romantic indicators, etc.

 

All you really have to do is says something that gets one thinking date territory. For the "old HS buddy" scenario, for instance, if the guy said, "Man you look cuter now than in HS! Are you seeing anyone?" I would assume he was on dating page. If he said, "Let's get together to talk about old times" I'd have no reason to assume it was a date. I have many male friends I socialize with so Man + Talking to Me + Wanting to Do Something With Me doesn't = Date. However, the place chosen also indicates, the offer to pick someone up also indicates, etc. There are many indicators.

 

"Let's go out sometime," suggests date. "Let's grab dinner sometime" does not to me, without any indicators beyond it, suggest date (it doesn't eliminate the possibility). Small things make a big difference in this, but really, it's not an issue most men run across. It's an issue a few men run across constantly because they've not found a way to get their indicators firing clearly for some reason. That's my thoughts at least.

 

There are a million ways to express romantic interest, and many I've probably never experienced/thought of, so I cannot list them all. But if you're often misunderstood, best to be clearer and more direct, I suppose.

 

I wonder if that's the key here. I don't have many female friends (only two, both of whom I don't see very often) so for me: single girl + me = date, since the only time that's not true (from my perspective) is when I'm hanging out with the only two female friends I have.

 

Guys who do have female friends are probably much better at communicating friend vs date intentions since they do this on a regular basis. For the past several years I've tended to put every woman I got along with right into the potential dating category rather than into the friend category, or even a mix of both. This was mostly in an attempt to stay out of the dreaded friend zone. Perhaps this does more harm than good.

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irc333 Established Member

irc333

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BTW I don't use the word grab. Usually it's some form of, Lets go eat, have lunch, do lunch etc. I just typed grab because I'm lazy :p

 

Neither would I say, "Hey Suzy, I think you're really swell. Lets go on a lunch date."

 

 

Yeah, can you picture yourself with a cheesy grin and sayingn, "Hey, Ivette, I think you're swell, would you like to join me at the Policeman's ball as my date Friday night?"

carhill Established Member

carhill

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'I'd love to take you out to dinner on Friday night. Would you like to join me?'.

 

No ambiguity.

 

These days, a lady only gets one opportunity to answer in the affirmative to that declaration and question. I am confident that women I'm compatible with know what and who they want, at least for dinner on Friday night.

fortyninethousand322 Established Member

fortyninethousand322

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I don't think this really happens all that often. I think if a woman puts you in the "FriendZone" it's because she's not attracted to you. Sometimes you could end up there because you didn't ask her out while she was single, and once she's in a relationship you can be "FZed" because she isn't available.

 

This. FZing is more a matter of communication break down. You were interested, thought she was, but she really wasn't. So, you wait around a) in an effort to change her mind or b) because you didn't know any better (i.e. you weren't aware that she wasn't interested). I think the latter is far more common than the former.

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irc333 Established Member

irc333

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All you really have to do is says something that gets one thinking date territory. For the "old HS buddy" scenario, for instance, if the guy said, "Man you look cuter now than in HS! Are you seeing anyone?"

 

Yeah, I think making flirty / innuendoish comments would be an indicator, if she doesn't fire back with anything flirty, or perhaps looks like you like a perv...then you're in.

 

There was this one woman I saw dancing the other night, I have to say, she had the "booty" going on back there, and well, when she was shakin' it, it was pretty obvious.

 

When I introduced myself, she goes, "I'm <her name>, I'm the WILD one!"

 

And I said, "Yeah, I could tell, I was enjoying the view from back here!"

 

And she went, "Heeeyoooo!" (You know, like Ed McMahon from the Carson show?)

 

I think in the past I made a similar, "Those hips don't lie" remark in reference to the "Hips don't lie" song.

Desert Rose Member

Desert Rose

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Do you really believe that there's a FZ between men and women? .. I mean 100% friendship? :D

carhill Established Member

carhill

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It's more like the 'brother' zone or 'tampon' zone. IME, there isn't really anything remotely 'friendly' about it, more like 'I think it's really cool for me to let you love me and I don't have to do anything in return. You should feel privileged for me letting you love me.'

 

Or something like that ;)

zengirl Established Member

zengirl

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'I'd love to take you out to dinner on Friday night. Would you like to join me?'.

 

No ambiguity.

 

These days, a lady only gets one opportunity to answer in the affirmative to that declaration and question. I am confident that women I'm compatible with know what and who they want, at least for dinner on Friday night.

 

Yes. "Take you out" also is a good way to indicate a date.

 

I wonder if that's the key here. I don't have many female friends (only two, both of whom I don't see very often) so for me: single girl + me = date, since the only time that's not true (from my perspective) is when I'm hanging out with the only two female friends I have.

 

Guys who do have female friends are probably much better at communicating friend vs date intentions since they do this on a regular basis. For the past several years I've tended to put every woman I got along with right into the potential dating category rather than into the friend category, or even a mix of both. This was mostly in an attempt to stay out of the dreaded friend zone. Perhaps this does more harm than good.

 

But since you have those two female friends, you can see there is a difference. :)

 

It's totally fine to put a woman in the dating category (understand you may not be in hers) and express as much. Women who are going to go out with you won't not go out with you because you've expressed romantic interest in them. . . unless they're kind of crazy. So unless you're into crazy women specifically, expressing clear interest is the way to go. I'm not saying it will always get you a date (it will get you a clear answer, but that answer may be no; and anything short of a yes = a no; some girls are not assertive enough and may say, "Well we can maybe hang out sometime, but I don't know if I see you that way" or something; that's a no. A maybe is a no. Those girls need to get more assertive, but men also just need to know that a wishy washy answer is always a no). But it will avoid some confusion.

 

There may be some crazy girls who only go out with guys who don't make their romantic intentions clear because it's a turnoff to actually have a guy romantically interested in them. Broken psyches are all over the place. But I'd say those girls are not worth pursuing.

zengirl Established Member

zengirl

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It's more like the 'brother' zone or 'tampon' zone. IME, there isn't really anything remotely 'friendly' about it, more like 'I think it's really cool for me to let you love me and I don't have to do anything in return. You should feel privileged for me letting you love me.'

 

Or something like that ;)

 

Right, orbiters are gross. And since you're someone who has platonic female friends (IIRC) carhill, I'm sure you know the difference. Real friends don't want you to love them in some romantic unrequited way because. . .that's awkward and uncomfortable for everyone. They want people as friends who are friends.

 

But I have seen some guys try to suppress their romantic interest so far down and then get surprised that the girl saw them as a friend. . . when they were acting like a friend, saying they wanted to be friends, etc. So I find it as annoying as wanting orbiters to want to BE somebody's "secret" orbiter and pretend to be their friend when that's really not what you're interested in.

somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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When inviting girls for lunch or coffee I never say it's a date and I never had a girl say it's not a date.

 

Usually it's with a girl that I met in class. I talk to her a couple of times and if I'm having a good time joking around and sense some possible interest from her. I'll suggest having lunch.

 

In that situation, what is the girl thinking?

 

Is there something wrong with my approach?

Can somebody please address what I wrote because that is my standard approach.

 

'I'd love to take you out to dinner on Friday night. Would you like to join me?'.

I can hardly imagine people in college doing that.

Edited by somedude81
zengirl Established Member

zengirl

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Can somebody please address what I said because this is my standard approach.

 

"Grabbing lunch" to me does not sound like a date. Which is not to say it NEVER could be, but if I didn't notice some kind of strong romantic vibe, I wouldn't think it was. Grabbing lunch makes me think of either: (1) friend, or (2) not BF material/not looking for anything serious. (And it's not eating lunch together itself that makes me think that, but the casual phrasing.)

 

College is a bit different, yes, but since you're older (I don't know how old you look), you're going to be hold to "older college boyfriend" standards which are different thing altogether and more like non-college standards. If I was 18 and an 18 year old guy asked me to grab lunch, especially if he was nervous or I was giggly, I might think, "date!" but it'd be one of those uncertainty things still. But EVERYONE is uncertain when they're young which is why college dating is murky. Regardless of your lack of experience, people are not going to assume you're that uncertain at your age. So consider that as well, as an aside.

 

When I was in college, even among regular college-age guys, I had dates like what carhill suggests. "Take you out" is a phrase that is ageless or timeless and always conveys date. I also had dates with guys I met out and about who flirted with me all night, called me pretty etc, and then asked me out. I still had that "could be a player" mentality for them, but I had no reason to believe they wanted to be my friends. But if some random guy or friendly acquaintance from class or an activity said, "Let's grab lunch," it'd feel the same as if some random girl said so. Nothing romantic about it. The person being a man does not, and really didn't, translate into clear romance. If said guy were cute, I might HOPE it was romantic, but I wouldn't have assumed.

somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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Forget the term grabbing lunch. It's just a word I chose to use here. If the phrasing matters, which I don't think it does at all, I say "lets have lunch." The only thing I don't do is call it a date. From what I've seen, younger girls are afraid of the word date. It means things are going to be serious and most just want to have fun.

 

What type of romantic vibe are you looking for?

 

I'll only invite a girl if we've been joking around and having fun. I really doubt there is any romance going on with somebody I barely know.

 

I look about 24, since that's the most common number girls tell me when I told them to guess.

 

I don't think I've ever asked out somebody who was giggly. I just don't see that at all.

it'd feel the same as if some random girl said so. Nothing romantic about it. The person being a man does not, and really didn't, translate into clear romance.

Seriously?

 

Don't girls believe that all guys just want sex. So if a guy invites you do something you'd feel it's the same thing as a girl inviting you out?

 

That makes no sense at all.

 

Would a guy have to grab your butt to let you know he's interested?

Edited by somedude81
fortyninethousand322 Established Member

fortyninethousand322

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But since you have those two female friends, you can see there is a difference. :)

 

It's totally fine to put a woman in the dating category (understand you may not be in hers) and express as much. Women who are going to go out with you won't not go out with you because you've expressed romantic interest in them. . . unless they're kind of crazy. So unless you're into crazy women specifically, expressing clear interest is the way to go. I'm not saying it will always get you a date (it will get you a clear answer, but that answer may be no; and anything short of a yes = a no; some girls are not assertive enough and may say, "Well we can maybe hang out sometime, but I don't know if I see you that way" or something; that's a no. A maybe is a no. Those girls need to get more assertive, but men also just need to know that a wishy washy answer is always a no). But it will avoid some confusion.

 

There may be some crazy girls who only go out with guys who don't make their romantic intentions clear because it's a turnoff to actually have a guy romantically interested in them. Broken psyches are all over the place. But I'd say those girls are not worth pursuing.

 

I'm pretty good about the whole maybe is a no in disguise sort of thing, that hasn't been a problem since high school for me.

 

I'm thinking more about how you communicate interest in someone as a dating prospect rather than as a friend. As you've indicated a man and a woman socializing does not automatically equal a date. It certainly could be, but it also might not be. Of all the women (all three of them :laugh:) who agreed to go out with me, only one of them knew it was a date, because I met her on OKC. The other two were girls that had chemistry with me and agreed to things like coffee, dinner, playing pool, stuff like that (one even agreed to several of these outings). I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that prior chemistry + social outing = date. I suppose guys like myself could stand to be a bit more forceful in expressing our intentions and not get so many wires crossed. Or I suppose, I merely have met two women who are somewhat different than the norm.

somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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Also the girls that I'm asking out are in the 20-22 range.

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irc333 Established Member

irc333

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called me pretty.

 

Ironically, advice given to men is to not compliment a woman when he initially meets her, because she "gets that" all the time. So to lay off on it.

 

Wierd huH?

 

Advise given is always advise that can contradict, as well.

carhill Established Member

carhill

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I can hardly imagine people in college doing that.

 

IDK, it worked (and failed to work) when I was in college. Of course that was long before you were born :D

somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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IDK, it worked (and failed to work) when I was in college. Of course that was long before you were born :D

Exactly.

 

Both the phrasing and going to dinner as a first date just don't work today.

 

Also college kids are broke. What am I going to do, take her to Taco Bell? There is no way I'd spend over $20 on a first date. And just sitting there and talking to her? Boring.

EasyHeart Established Member

EasyHeart

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Seriously?

 

Don't girls believe that all guys just want sex. So if a guy invites you do something you'd feel it's the same thing as a girl inviting you out?

 

That makes no sense at all.

 

Would a guy have to grab your butt to let you know he's interested?

No man will ever be able to master the Secret Code that women speak in, and no man can possibly compete with a woman when it comes to speaking in code. Our strength is being direct, so directness is what you should emphasize.

 

If I'm at lunch with a woman and I'm not sure if it's a date, I use the opportunity to display myself to her in a favorable light. She simply may not be attracted to me (which is hard to believe, but it sometimes happens!), in which case there is nothing I can do about it. But I use the time with her to dazzle her with my wit and intelligence, so that by the end of the lunch she will be HOPING this was a date and HOPING to see me again.

EasyHeart Established Member

EasyHeart

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Ironically, advice given to men is to not compliment a woman when he initially meets her, because she "gets that" all the time. So to lay off on it.

 

Wierd huH?

 

Advise given is always advise that can contradict, as well.

It depends on the woman. The saying I heard a looooong time ago is: "Tell the smart ones that they're pretty and tell the pretty ones that they're smart."
somedude81 Established Member

somedude81

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Can you expand upon being direct? My version of direct is obviously a bit extreme.

It depends on the woman. The saying I heard a looooong time ago is: "Tell the smart ones that they're pretty and tell the pretty ones that they're smart."

Heh, that's clever. I have to try it.

 

The girl I'm into is both smart and pretty but her intelligence is the greater of the two. I often gave her compliments on that and joke about it with her, but I've never said she was pretty or cute. Now if only I could think of what to say, when and how.

Edited by somedude81
runner Established Member

runner

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Yes. "Take you out" also is a good way to indicate a date.

...

 

It's totally fine to put a woman in the dating category (understand you may not be in hers) and express as much. Women who are going to go out with you won't not go out with you because you've expressed romantic interest in them. . . unless they're kind of crazy. So unless you're into crazy women specifically, expressing clear interest is the way to go. I'm not saying it will always get you a date (it will get you a clear answer, but that answer may be no; and anything short of a yes = a no; some girls are not assertive enough and may say, "Well we can maybe hang out sometime, but I don't know if I see you that way" or something; that's a no. A maybe is a no. Those girls need to get more assertive, but men also just need to know that a wishy washy answer is always a no). But it will avoid some confusion.

.

 

spot on. i think some guys really need to print this out in size 36 font and post in on their fridge. as soon as i get the wishy washy vibe i just shut it off and put her in my own friend zone.

 

and yea, i always go with 'i'd like to take you out' line to avoid confusion. if i get declined, no harm no foul, i just walk away with a 'sure no problem...see you around then' :cool: the funny part is when they come back around and start flirting :lmao:

zengirl Established Member

zengirl

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Forget the term grabbing lunch. It's just a word I chose to use here. If the phrasing matters, which I don't think it does at all, I say "lets have lunch."

 

"Let's have lunch" to me is the same as "Let's grab lunch."

 

"Let me take you out to lunch" would seem more date-like/romantic. You don't HAVE to call it a date (though I think wanting to date women who are afraid of the word date is weird. . . I have some friends who are in their early 20s, and they are not afraid of the word, but maybe this is some new thing). But people have lunch with friends all the time. It's a friendly term.

 

And I think phrasing matters a lot. It always did to me when I was young and analyzing male behavior. Men don't think about it, I agree, but women do. And talk about it. A lot.

 

The only thing I don't do is call it a date. From what I've seen, younger girls are afraid of the word date. It means things are going to be serious and most just want to have fun.

 

1. Young girls are likely to be afraid of the word date with a guy they don't want to go on a date with. So that could be happening. (Sorry.) They aren't assertive yet to say no, in many cases, and feel comfy with it.

 

2. They might be afraid of "big, serious" relationships but that comes more from the overall tone than anything. I'm not saying you should say "I want to date you" (that's weird in most contexts) but you have to make sure you don't do something a friend would do if you don't want to be considered a friend.

 

What type of romantic vibe are you looking for?

 

I'll only invite a girl if we've been joking around and having fun. I really doubt there is any romance going on with somebody I barely know.

 

But people joke and have fun with their friends too. Really. I joke and have fun with my male friends. Are you calling the girls attractive? If you say "You're cute" or something, then it's on them; they are being really spacey about it and/or attention seeking. But if you just think anytime you have a fun, playful conversation with a woman she thinks it means romance, that's untrue. You have to do or say something romantic for her to know that your intentions lie there.

 

I look about 24, since that's the most common number girls tell me when I told them to guess.

 

24 falls into the territory I set. I dated older guys in college mostly (whether they were in or out of college) and I expected them to have their act together more than the guys my age. So I took the way they phrased things more seriously than the younger guys. So did all my friends. FWIW.

 

I don't think I've ever asked out somebody who was giggly. I just don't see that at all.

Seriously?

 

Well, that's fine, though most 18 year old girls I meet are giggly. So that's why I used that example. :)

 

Don't girls believe that all guys just want sex. So if a guy invites you do something you'd feel it's the same thing as a girl inviting you out?

 

No. I mean, if you gave off a total player vibe all the time, maybe, but from what I know of you, I'm doubting that's an issue you have. Many girls nowadays grow up having male friends.

 

Many, many girls definitely have the belief that men don't want serious relationships (which is why I suspect they seem to have an air to them that they have some aversion to relationships; I suspect most young girls DO want serious relationships but DON'T want anyone to know they want one; weird, I know), but they don't have the belief that no male wants to be their friend. Not many women my age or younger that I've met have that belief at least.

 

Would a guy have to grab your butt to let you know he's interested?

 

No, and that's totally inappropriate. I've listed a lot more subtle and appropriate ways to express interest.

 

That said, young girls totally find BFs through "Friends first" in many cases. You just can't go into a "Friends first" situation thinking it's romantic yet. It could be, if you escalate romance and interest. But it may not work out. That's like anything, though. But I definitely knew girls in college who would be friends with a guy and then date him later, but they thought he was cute the whole time, it just took awhile for one of them to finally 'try something' if that makes sense.

 

So relationships start in all different ways. My advice on being uber-clear is mostly for people who find their intentions commonly misunderstood. If it's MULTIPLE people misunderstanding you on a consistent basis, it's likely the problem is yours and not theirs.

 

I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that prior chemistry + social outing = date. I suppose guys like myself could stand to be a bit more forceful in expressing our intentions and not get so many wires crossed. Or I suppose, I merely have met two women who are somewhat different than the norm.

 

Chemistry is not always equal on both sides. You don't really know if another person is feeling the same kind of chemistry as you unless they tell you so. I've met guys who thought we had chemistry where I just thought they were nice enough guys. And vice versa. That's why it's on the person who's feeling it to put it out there in a more clear way if they expect it to be clear.

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irc333 Established Member

irc333

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It depends on the woman. The saying I heard a looooong time ago is: "Tell the smart ones that they're pretty and tell the pretty ones that they're smart."

 

Or, "Don't be afraid to approach a highly beautiful woman, because she is always alone, and never gets approached, because other men are intimated by her!"

 

Sometimes I wonder if old advice given (spelled it right this time I think lol) still works?

zengirl Established Member

zengirl

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Posted
Ironically, advice given to men is to not compliment a woman when he initially meets her, because she "gets that" all the time. So to lay off on it.

 

Wierd huH?

 

Advise given is always advise that can contradict, as well.

 

That's true. However, I do think it's important to call someone cute/pretty whatever in the RIGHT way (not sexualizing it) in many cases --- really depends on context of course and the woman or man in question and what they're looking for and a million factors that are unknown quantities, but speaking in general. I said in another thread how the best "pretty" compliments are the parenthetical ones.

 

It's not going up to a girl and going, "You're hot! Let's go out."

 

It's getting to know a girl and then, after expressing interest in other parts of her, mentioning as a parenthetical aside that she is, in addition to being great for all the other stuff (whatever that may be) that makes you interested in her, a pretty girl. Which I understand is hard to do.

 

If you only like her BECAUSE she's pretty, it's lame and you're creepy. If you like her + think she's pretty, it's a compliment that indicates, "This dude is romantically interested in me" and she considers how she thinks about that. Which may be a "Yay, he's cute and cool" or a "Bummer, he's so not my type" or anything in between. But at least she will consider the prospect.

 

Exactly.

 

Both the phrasing and going to dinner as a first date just don't work today.

 

Also college kids are broke. What am I going to do, take her to Taco Bell? There is no way I'd spend over $20 on a first date. And just sitting there and talking to her? Boring.

 

When I was in college (less than a decade ago), we went out to dinner. We were kind of broke (well, I never was as I worked a ton + was on a full scholarship and then some) but we still went out and did things. We went bowling, went to dinner at moderately priced restaurants, saw movies, etc. Nobody's saying take her to the Four Seasons or anything.

 

Most of my college first dates were actually dinner dates. . .

 

No man will ever be able to master the Secret Code that women speak in, and no man can possibly compete with a woman when it comes to speaking in code. Our strength is being direct, so directness is what you should emphasize.

 

If I'm at lunch with a woman and I'm not sure if it's a date, I use the opportunity to display myself to her in a favorable light. She simply may not be attracted to me (which is hard to believe, but it sometimes happens!), in which case there is nothing I can do about it. But I use the time with her to dazzle her with my wit and intelligence, so that by the end of the lunch she will be HOPING this was a date and HOPING to see me again.

 

This is a good attitude to take as well, but you cannot overinvest and get upset if she didn't see it the way you did is all. (That's just bad for your self-esteem. As I think a lot of the guys here experience.)

 

It depends on the woman. The saying I heard a looooong time ago is: "Tell the smart ones that they're pretty and tell the pretty ones that they're smart."

 

I think there's a kernel of truth in this cliche that is really good: the best compliment (romantic or otherwise) is to tell someone essentially, "I see something in you that most people don't notice." :) But if you cannot find a compliment at that level, it's not a problem or anything. I do think many successful relationships tend to be with people where both people CAN see something in the other that most people around them miss/don't notice.

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