thatone Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Oh, totally good tips. For me, my "assertiveness training" was in sales---I had a great sales manager who recognized I was a kickass ad sales person but kind of an aggressive person in general (I was 21) and he really demonstrated to me the difference between assertive (happy) and aggressive (angry) both in my saleswork and life (he's still a good friend, too). But it was amazing the day that I realized that the world would respond positively to me if I just made it clear what I wanted and needed. The other trick to assertiveness is learning to communicate in assertive ways, that preferably don't involve raising one's voice. I get the impression this is the bit that Ta might struggle with. T, you say yourself you either yell or clam up. Did you ever try taking a deep breath, figuring out what bothers you about the situation, and trying out a clichéd but effective: "When you do this, it makes me feel (...). I want us to be able to (...)."? It's not much different than you making suggestions about how you could continue the driving instructions, only, it saves on negative energy and allows for both of you to discuss the issue. With experience it becomes easier, and conflicts in a relationship no longer provoke so much anxiety. You end up trusting you can solve issues for the best. absolutely correct. i've posted multiple times on this forum to men who struggle with conversation and approaches that either a job that requires public interaction or some form of class or training that entails public speaking will immensely help them.
fortyninethousand322 Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 absolutely correct. i've posted multiple times on this forum to men who struggle with conversation and approaches that either a job that requires public interaction or some form of class or training that entails public speaking will immensely help them. I think they're two different issues. Communication when you're already in a relationship with someone is totally different than communication during the attraction phase. I worked almost 9 years in retail, great with customers, assertive with coworkers and management. But, hasn't helped me a lick with talking to women.
EasyHeart Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Oh, I don't mean women take abuse (some do, some don't, just like men). I mean the phenomenon is somehow different. . . as I said, hard to explain. But I know a lot of guys who seem really stoic and supportive but it's totally building, whereas I think women seem to swing wider emotionally. That makes no sense, really, but words are failing me. I was just teasing. But I've run into lots of women who pretend everything is fine, while secretly making a "grudge" list. Then one day they announce that we are breaking up and rattle off a long list of things I said/did wrong, most of which are trivial and NONE of which they ever mentioned. They're just very passive and want to avoid conflict at any cost and think the solution is to be "nice". By guess is that with most women who display this characteristic, it's being trained to be "nice" and passive around men; with guys it's probably being trained to suppress their emotions, so they never learn how to discuss them.
zengirl Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I know it's not going to work forever. I have a feeling he's starting to catch on to me a little re: shutting him out. And he has grown increasingly less tolerant of the way I channel my temper. He's been calling my bluff, like when I said that if he isn't willing to take on the full responsibility of teaching me how to drive then I'll hire a professional--he told me fine, go ahead and hire one, I'm not going to teach you anymore. It was only after a bit more wrangling that he calmed down and said, okay, when we go out we'll plan routes and whatnot. Kam, I have done that "When you do this, it makes me feel...". I did it early on. I've lost sight of it since we moved in together, and particularly with all this driving stuff. I'm in the moment and trying to focus and I get easily frustrated, so it's near impossible for me to think about what I'm doing. I automatically slip into manipulation mode. I'm better at handling disagreements when they don't start while I'm behind the wheel or when I'm really emotionally overwhelmed. It's like...I don't even know where to start without being manipulative. I'm so used to doing it. First of all, I think it's possible hiring a professional might not be a terrible idea. Re: the driving thing, I actually think it sounded like (in your other posts) his teaching style and your learning style are just not compatible, and since you already have anxiety with driving, it might be worth it to look elsewhere. The cost of an instructor is not that much compared to the toll this may be taking on your relationship. Besides that, re: assertiveness. Of course, everyone has trouble speaking perfectly when they're angry. I don't know if Kamille is a saint or something, but I imagine even she has had moments where she got so angry she said something in an imperfect way. I consider myself a pretty assertive, healthy person, and I try hard to think before I speak particularly with people I love, but I blow up now and again. (It's at its worst lately because I just re-started BC. So I totally feel where you're coming from when you say you're not in a good head-state to react at your best sometimes.) But the bigger thing is recognizing you were wrong. When you catch yourself in manipulation mode, there's probably a moment where you decide to dig your heels in. In that moment, you are beginning to think consciously again --- not from the emotion anymore --- and that's the moment where you can choose to turn it around. (It will be hard at first but become more natural, I think.) If in that moment, instead of getting colder or digging in, you actually admitted what you were doing ("I'm sorry, I get cold because I get so anxious/angry/etc, but I shouldn't do that" or whatever) and then re-stated your particular need, I think it would be more powerfully assertive and potentially could jumpstart a more positive pattern. While that means actually calling yourself on your own B.S. (we all have it) in front of your partner----a powerful thing, but a thing too many people are too afraid of----it's so much more powerful than waiting for them to catch on and call you on it. Honestly, most people will forgive you bad impulses as long as you catch them and attempt to correct them. We are all imperfect, human, and dangerous to each other sometimes. The best we can often do is just to realize when we're potentially doing hurtful things and admit it. IMO, at least. Well, we're often stuck in a rut, whereby we feel if we express hurt we are ridiculed for being weak, told to grow an extra set of testicles, to man up, and if we don't we're "emotional unavailable". Yeah, so you know what I'm saying? I just think that women who are in a relationship with a partner who is mostly good (as I think tigressA is) but has a manipulative pattern (which she has)* will do a little more to 'call' the guy on it before they start to emotionally disengage, but for men, it's often almost like something snaps and they didn't even consciously realize what was happening until it was too late and that emotional connection is irreparably damaged. Not always, of course, as all men are individuals and all relationships are unique, but men and women (in general terms) go about this differently. *(Also, I think people who are mostly good can have bad, abusive, or distressing patterns. It's different if you're dealing with a really crap person or something, but I think tigressA generally WANTS to be a good partner; she just has some issues going on.)
zengirl Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I was just teasing. But I've run into lots of women who pretend everything is fine, while secretly making a "grudge" list. Then one day they announce that we are breaking up and rattle off a long list of things I said/did wrong, most of which are trivial and NONE of which they ever mentioned. They're just very passive and want to avoid conflict at any cost and think the solution is to be "nice". By guess is that with most women who display this characteristic, it's being trained to be "nice" and passive around men; with guys it's probably being trained to suppress their emotions, so they never learn how to discuss them. I see that too, and I think it's a slightly different phenomenon, but totally happens. Those women are actually the women most likely to cheat as well, IMO.
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 I was just teasing. But I've run into lots of women who pretend everything is fine, while secretly making a "grudge" list. Then one day they announce that we are breaking up and rattle off a long list of things I said/did wrong, most of which are trivial and NONE of which they ever mentioned. They're just very passive and want to avoid conflict at any cost and think the solution is to be "nice". Ha, I used to make mental grudge lists. And then blow up when a new straw broke the camel's back.
dispatch3d Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I know it's not going to work forever. I have a feeling he's starting to catch on to me a little re: shutting him out. And he has grown increasingly less tolerant of the way I channel my temper. He's been calling my bluff, like when I said that if he isn't willing to take on the full responsibility of teaching me how to drive then I'll hire a professional--he told me fine, go ahead and hire one, I'm not going to teach you anymore. It was only after a bit more wrangling that he calmed down and said, okay, when we go out we'll plan routes and whatnot. Kam, I have done that "When you do this, it makes me feel...". I did it early on. I've lost sight of it since we moved in together, and particularly with all this driving stuff. I'm in the moment and trying to focus and I get easily frustrated, so it's near impossible for me to think about what I'm doing. I automatically slip into manipulation mode. I'm better at handling disagreements when they don't start while I'm behind the wheel or when I'm really emotionally overwhelmed. It's like...I don't even know where to start without being manipulative. I'm so used to doing it. Cliff notes -sometimes I lose my temper and flip out at my boyfriend for no reason.
EasyHeart Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Ha, I used to make mental grudge lists. And then blow up when a new straw broke the camel's back.Are you sure I haven't dated you?
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 Are you sure I haven't dated you? I'm way too young for you, EH.
2sunny Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I know it's not going to work forever. then either leave or start changing the way you behave. I have a feeling he's starting to catch on to me a little re: shutting him out. and how is it fair to him if you simply shut him out? what are you offering him, nothing? how can you expect him to be a mindreader. And he has grown increasingly less tolerant of the way I channel my temper. channel you TEMPER? sheez, you could be channeling your positive energy - you're doing things backwards... and he's being wussy boy about it. he shouldn't have to manage your negative energy. He's been calling my bluff, like when I said that if he isn't willing to take on the full responsibility of teaching me how to drive then I'll hire a professional--he told me fine, go ahead and hire one, I'm not going to teach you anymore. It was only after a bit more wrangling that he calmed down and said, okay, when we go out we'll plan routes and whatnot. spend a few hundred dollars and have a professional teach you to drive - it's NOT his responsibility!
make me believe Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Your relationship sounds unhealthy and you sound like a nightmare to be with. Your swearing and screaming and screaching are going to wear off quickly for your BF. He backs down because he just wants you to shut up. Or he's a total doormat. Either way, is it really something to be proud of?? This is one that I see a friend of mine do all the time, and it works like magic: Her guy will pick out some perfect thing for her, like caramel sea salt 70% dark organic chocolate. Then he brings it home to her, and instead of expressing appreciation, she'll be unimpressed and say something like, "Oh, I wanted to try the 75% one." I used to think she was SUCH a major bitch for this. But now I get it. Next time, he'll one-up himself by bringing her home 3 different, better, more expensive options. The woman gets what she wants every damn time. And the man -- who is a TOTAL catch, cute as hell, making great money, alpha guy, the life of the party -- seems thrilled to be her bitch. Are you seriously advocating this kind of f*cked up behavior?! WTF is with the women in this thread who are sooo proud of treating their men like sh*t? And I don't think it's very common for a woman to want her man to be "her bitch." Gross. Most women want a guy who wouldn't put up with this kind of immature, mean-spirited game playing. I feel sorry for these guys and I feel sorry for the women who feel the need to be manipulative in order to make the guy like them better. 1
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 But the bigger thing is recognizing you were wrong. When you catch yourself in manipulation mode, there's probably a moment where you decide to dig your heels in. In that moment, you are beginning to think consciously again --- not from the emotion anymore --- and that's the moment where you can choose to turn it around. (It will be hard at first but become more natural, I think.) If in that moment, instead of getting colder or digging in, you actually admitted what you were doing ("I'm sorry, I get cold because I get so anxious/angry/etc, but I shouldn't do that" or whatever) and then re-stated your particular need, I think it would be more powerfully assertive and potentially could jumpstart a more positive pattern. While that means actually calling yourself on your own B.S. (we all have it) in front of your partner----a powerful thing, but a thing too many people are too afraid of----it's so much more powerful than waiting for them to catch on and call you on it. I have admitted what I'm doing sometimes--but after the fact. I don't actually correct my behavior in the moment, or if I do, I just stop myself from doing it more, after I've already started. I kind of feel like that is even more manipulative because I'm only admitting it to gain points and defuse the situation. I do it if I sense I really messed up and I want to "take it back". I did it when things were really tense and emotional in the time after I took the morning-after pill; my moods were extreme and I would cry at the drop of a hat when I normally almost never cry. I was outrageously needy and sobbed my heart out. I even got him to delay his weekend away to see his brother, who he hasn't seen for years, by an entire night. His brother was a no-show anyway but that isn't the point. I sensed that the crying really turned him off and that's when I said, "I'm sorry, I don't mean to do this, it's that stupid pill, I don't like being like this, blah blah" and he turned soft again. We had had a discussion about that incident recently and I copped to manipulating him.
zengirl Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I have admitted what I'm doing sometimes--but after the fact. I don't actually correct my behavior in the moment, or if I do, I just stop myself from doing it more, after I've already started. I kind of feel like that is even more manipulative because I'm only admitting it to gain points and defuse the situation. If that's why you were doing it, it would be more manipulative, I guess. I was suggesting doing it the second you notice it and verbalizing it more so both you and your partner could recognize it more readily, thus diminishing the emotional kneejerk manipulative reaction over time. For me, verbalizing something I do (but want to stop) helps me stop doing it. I'm sure there are other things that would work as well; that's just the best trick I know. The idea is that eventually, you would not only not "dig in" but you'd begin to not even go there, as you would change your behavioral habits by calling yourself out.
2sunny Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 i don't blame him for wanting to leave for the weekend... you know you do this - say you're trying to change it - yet continue to do it to him = not nice. expect him to want to be away more often.
Mme. Chaucer Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 The title of your thread: Some guys don't mind being treated badly Doesn't really jive with your posts here, which are mostly about your own behavior. Whether your boyfriend or other guys, or women, appear to accept "being treated badly," it's not okay to treat people that way - nor to accept such treatment. You say you and he expect to remain together for the rest of your lives. How do you envision your lives as an old couple, with you allowing yourself to ream him out every time you're triggered? I bet we've all seen couples like this - the mean, nagging, harassing wife with the silent doorknob of an old hubby? Not a pretty sight. On another topic, I found the posts from that one whom shall remain nameless advocating physical violence to stop a bitching woman from bitching to be extremely creepy and even chilling. It's rare to see a person in this day and age touting such a concept, even if it still happens with unfortunate frequency. Resulting in another horrible couple to see: the cowardly bully vibrating with barely repressed violence and rage shadowed by a cowed, fearful woman. Both are awful. Though I have to say that physical violence is worse than being a bitch. Anyway, Tigress, what your boyfriend minds or doesn't mind is not really the subject of all this at all, nor should it be. The real subject is YOUR behavior.
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 If that's why you were doing it, it would be more manipulative, I guess. I was suggesting doing it the second you notice it and verbalizing it more so both you and your partner could recognize it more readily, thus diminishing the emotional kneejerk manipulative reaction over time. For me, verbalizing something I do (but want to stop) helps me stop doing it. I'm sure there are other things that would work as well; that's just the best trick I know. The idea is that eventually, you would not only not "dig in" but you'd begin to not even go there, as you would change your behavioral habits by calling yourself out. I guess I have kind of started doing that. I'll start to say something and then I'll stop and say, "Never mind, never mind, I don't want to go there." This will be while we're in the car and I'm driving. Usually I'll pull over as soon as I can and tell him "You drive" because I'm feeling too frustrated to drive anymore.
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 i don't blame him for wanting to leave for the weekend... you know you do this - say you're trying to change it - yet continue to do it to him = not nice. expect him to want to be away more often. He didn't do it to get away from me. He has important business to take care of. I would've gone along with him if I didn't have to work Sundays.
betterdeal Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Yeah, so you know what I'm saying? I just think that women who are in a relationship with a partner who is mostly good (as I think tigressA is) but has a manipulative pattern (which she has)* will do a little more to 'call' the guy on it before they start to emotionally disengage, but for men, it's often almost like something snaps and they didn't even consciously realize what was happening until it was too late and that emotional connection is irreparably damaged. Not always, of course, as all men are individuals and all relationships are unique, but men and women (in general terms) go about this differently. *(Also, I think people who are mostly good can have bad, abusive, or distressing patterns. It's different if you're dealing with a really crap person or something, but I think tigressA generally WANTS to be a good partner; she just has some issues going on.) Yes, we are good at delayed shock. It's what we're taught. On the playing field, you don't show any signs of weakness because the opposition will be sure to knock the crap out of the guy with the limp.
OhSynapse Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know where the conversation is at. OP, it doesn't sounds right how you are treating your bf, especially since he's doing you a favor by teaching you how to drive. I'm also very very short-tempered, but I've learned to control myself before letting things escalate. Usually, when I feel like I'm about to explode, I just tell him that I need to calm down and can't talk, and we resume our conversation later. Men who constantly give in to "bitchy" women are doormats. Those are not very healthy behaviors. I can't understand why any woman would want to purposely be bitchy to a man. MOST sane men will not tolerate bitchy behaviors. My bf is very patient and calm, but if I ever "lash" out at him, he would be calling me out on it and tell me to stop.
2sunny Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 hire an instructor while he's gone... tell him it's your gift to him. or are you reluctant to pay money for a service.
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 hire an instructor while he's gone... tell him it's your gift to him. or are you reluctant to pay money for a service. I'm not reluctant. I'm currently unable. While I am working part-time, I'm still struggling finding supplementary/full-time work, and what with my re-commitment to sharing expenses now that I've been earning money, I don't have enough to hire an instructor. I'll have to save every cent for the next two weeks before I can. I'll do it though. I honestly can't really stand driving with him anymore. It makes me way too anxious.
Ms. Joolie Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 He doesn't mind being treated badly because he loves you. It doesn't sound like he's a doormat, rather like he's committed to you in the relationship. It hasn't gotten to him, and he's able to laugh it off even. He's ready to get heated and argue with you to talk it out or be the one to help talk it out when you're not talking. He's not walking away, but showing he has what it takes to be in a relationship. However, his stepping up doesn't make your emotional blow-ups OK. There's no pride in being a borderline abusive woman. I hope you are sincere in wanting to give up this behavior. You may be learning how to deal with conflict inside of a relationship right now, or as 2sunny suggested, how to mange your negative energy. Your juvenile, negative self wants to act like a b*tch, but YOU really do want to choose differently. You want it, he wants it, and your relationship needs it. I am amazed at my own negative reactions and emotions inside my relationship, and realize what a huge blockage it can become for us. I'm embarrassed when I don't manage my negativity well. It's very much a learning experience to be in a real, committed relationship for the first time. You have to deal straight up with who you are. In such a relationship you can't hide. Everything shows. So it really sounds to me like you are being provoked, and now you yourself have to step up to keep this relationship going. Not just going but going well. This is exactly how relationships help you grow as a person. Unless you choose to be immature that is.
torn_curtain Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I agree with Zengirl that guys have a way of putting up with BS until they break and then dumping the girl with no warning. So be careful, Tigress. You may think your boyfriend is cool with your behavior, but more likely than not little resentments are building up inside him and will eventually burst out.
Kamille Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I might be the only one, but I'm not worried about trying to predict his potential future reactions. I think people are trying to make T aware of potential consequences - but none of us are fortune tellers. However, T, what I'm concerned about is this: how does it make you feel that "treating your bf badly" seems to get you some kind of reward? And what is that reward? If you feel negatively about it, can you think of any other way of getting what you want without engaging in behavior that bothers you? I haven't been able to read the whole thread but it isn't clear to me whether you're happy you found a way to get what you want or whether it bothers you.
Author tigressA Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 I might be the only one, but I'm not worried about trying to predict his potential future reactions. I think people are trying to make T aware of potential consequences - but none of us are fortune tellers. However, T, what I'm concerned about is this: how does it make you feel that "treating your bf badly" seems to get you some kind of reward? And what is that reward? If you feel negatively about it, can you think of any other way of getting what you want without engaging in behavior that bothers you? I haven't been able to read the whole thread but it isn't clear to me whether you're happy you found a way to get what you want or whether it bothers you. The reward is, basically, getting my way. I want him to shut up, he shuts up. I want him to reassure me, he reassures me. It bothers me. I'm troubled because I don't know where to start in order to put a stop to it. We talked a little bit earlier on IM and he actually apologized for how he reacted to me yesterday in telling me to find an instructor, he wasn't going to teach me anymore, etc. It was completely unprompted. We talked a little about the driving and I said I'm going to get professional instruction, that I don't want to make him or myself anxious and frustrated anymore--I brought up that if I ever wrecked his car his insurance would go up, etc. He was all like, I don't care about the car. I get anxious when you're driving because I care about YOU. And it sort of broke a dam in me. I started crying. I felt like such a c*nt. We couldn't talk more then as he had to go, but I guess we'll be talking later, or tomorrow when he gets back.
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