Some guys don't mind being treated badly

[tigressA]

I didn't read the thread but did you know that couples teaching each other how to drive can even tear apart marriages?

 

Hope you're considering a professional teaching you with their own car, instead of your b/fs corvette!

 

As far as men liking bitches, people confuse assertiveness for bitchiness, although some consider assertiveness bitchiness.

 

It's not a Corvette; he sold it over a month ago in favor of a much more conservative car. And no, I didn't know that. I guess I have more of a reason to 'fire' BF as my instructor.

[threebyfate]

It's not a Corvette; he sold it over a month ago in favor of a much more conservative car. And no, I didn't know that. I guess I have more of a reason to 'fire' BF as my instructor.

Yes, do so, for the good of your relationship. Learning to drive can be frustrating for everyone involved. If he insists on teaching you, bring up that people have split for much less.

 

As well, he might be teaching you driving habits that are frowned upon when you go take your test. If you fail the test, how will you feel and how will he feel, not that it's going to happen but it might.

 

Anyways, stay away from driving lessons and relationships. Let a driving instructor who gets paid for his/her teaching skills show you how it should be done.

[runner]

This one is kind of subtle, but SUPER effective: when he brags to you about something he did well, be lukewarm in your acknowledgement, e.g., "That's cool", as opposed to, "Woah, that's awesome, honey!"

 

What does he do next? Trips over himself trying to do something even better, something that IS worthy of you deeming awesome.

 

This is one that I see a friend of mine do all the time, and it works like magic: Her guy will pick out some perfect thing for her, like caramel sea salt 70% dark organic chocolate. Then he brings it home to her, and instead of expressing appreciation, she'll be unimpressed and say something like, "Oh, I wanted to try the 75% one." I used to think she was SUCH a major bitch for this. But now I get it.

 

Next time, he'll one-up himself by bringing her home 3 different, better, more expensive options.

 

The woman gets what she wants every damn time. And the man -- who is a TOTAL catch, cute as hell, making great money, alpha guy, the life of the party -- seems thrilled to be her bitch.

 

oh geez. if i were in his shoes my response would be, "aw shucks, better luck next time eh" ....as i walk away eating chocolate.

[RepairMinded]

That seems much more like just having high standards and not being easily impressed than being a bitch. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. I, on the other hand, am just a bitch. I'm working on it though, as it is wrong, and it won't fly for too much longer.

 

Newsflash: Guys date you for the p*ssy.

 

Tell yourself whatever else you want to about it ROTFLMAO:laugh:

[RepairMinded]

Ugh, you are simply awful. This guy must be pretty desperate to keep putting up with this ****.

 

No, she clearly said that he doesn't take her temper tantrums seriously.

 

She thinks she's some kind of big "threatening presence" and he's laughing it off. You know--he probably regards her like his little pet and very high strung toy poodle.

 

It's worth the inconvenience of her bitchery to get the poontang though.

 

Watch how long he would stick around if she closed her legs to him.

[RepairMinded]

This is one that I see a friend of mine do all the time, and it works like magic: Her guy will pick out some perfect thing for her, like caramel sea salt 70% dark organic chocolate.

 

Maybe, but I don't think this technique would work so well on a heterosexual man.

[Allisha]

Earlier when I gave it to my BF straight about the driving instruction like a cold hard b*tch ("Am I clear?"), he immediately got defensive and said I could hire a professional if I really wanted. In the end though, he agreed to my guidelines. I didn't even apologize for my attitude. I didn't have to. When saying our goodbyes he was a sweetheart, as usual. When we bicker/argue, which isn't that often, I raise my voice and start swearing a lot, and he's usually the one to apologize first.

 

I remember posting a thread about the end of my last relationship that was hundreds of posts long. In it, I was remonstrated with for seeming very cold and calculating. One particular guy I dated on and off said sometimes he could see the wheels turning in my head, but never said anything because he was in his doormat phase and had really liked me. He said extreme manipulation seemed to be a natural part of my MO. But that didn't prevent him from wanting to rekindle our relationship when we briefly reconnected at the start of this year. This was after he had confronted me for having blatantly lied to him.

 

I'm consistently rewarded for being b*tchy and manipulative. When I first started dating and I was transparently honest and sweet and giving, it turned guys off. I had to pre-emptively end relationships that were going nowhere because the guy just didn't feel the same way I did. But once I started becoming manipulative, more selfish, and abrasive ("F*ck off!") the guys I was with were at my feet. Even if they at first acted like they wouldn't put up with it, they would inevitably come back around.

 

It can't be just me who's experienced this. I honestly think guys are just as susceptible to less-than-ideal treatment at the hands of a significant other as it's constantly said women are.

 

 

I miss your multi-dating log.

 

Just saying.

(hope your relationship is going well though )

[rafallus]

Say I do something like delaying a turn, and I get honked at. He'll be like "GO! Turn!" And he'll ask me why I didn't make the turn "earlier" or why I waited that long. I'll say something like "Well I just made the turn, it's not like I'm still sitting there! Jesus f*cking Christ!" Then he'll say something that makes me feel like an idiot and I'll tell him to f*ck off. A lot of the time he'll say it right back to me in this 'joking' tone, and it'll escalate (or de-escalate? I don't know) into something not to be taken seriously by either of us ("F*ck your mom", etc).

 

I'm not sure if it's "not minding being treated badly". Maybe he doesn't take it personally and sees it just as an immature fit, and thinks it's a waste of time to get worked up over this.

[anne1707]

I'm not sure if it's "not minding being treated badly". Maybe he doesn't take it personally and sees it just as an immature fit, and thinks it's a waste of time to get worked up over this.

 

That is quite possible. I also think that if this is the case, in time he may think enough is enough and decide he will not tolerate such unpleasant and childish behaviour in future.

[Kamille]

I can deconstruct this sociologically if you want. By switching from "too sweet" to bitchy, you're in fact staying in the same paradigm of behavior. The intent of both is to have an effect on someone else, to potentially manipulate them. So it's like you have a continuum:

 

__________________________________

"Too sweet"............................... Bitchy.

 

 

You would think the middle would be "just right", but it actually doesn't work that way. If too sweet doesn't work for you and it bugs you to have to be "bitchy" (which it might not - bitchy can be some people's modus operandi), than you need to step out of the manipulation paradigm altogether.

 

That's when you're left with assertiveness. There's a difference between cutting someone down to manipulate them and standing up for yourself, what you believe in and your boundaries. I used to be "too sweet" and yes, I agree with you that men don't respect it (why should they?). But I've never had to resort to bitchiness. I realized that I was being too sweet in the hopes of convincing someone I was worth it. The solution wasn't to become a bitch, it was to accept that trying to control someone else's behavior was - to me at least - an exhausting endeavor. I chose the third way: assertiveness, knowing myself, my boundaries and working on my fear of loss (thanks TBF ). I would never be happy, in the long term, in a relationship with someone who responded positively to bitchy behavior. If dating someone like that, it's always best for me to let them go.

 

I much prefer my current R, where we appreciate and support each other. But to each their own. Maybe acting this way works for you.

[dispatch3d]

It is really just like "F*ck, I'm angry!" I don't go into it with an intent to hurt him, and I don't feel good if or when I hurt him--and apparently I don't as he doesn't tell me that, and he would not hesitate to say so if I did hurt him. He always just says I need to calm down and take a chill pill, and that he doesn't really appreciate me expressing my anger and frustration in the way that I do. Expressing it in that way gets me what I want, though--him to shut up so I can focus on my driving. I don't like him criticizing me in the way that he does when I'm actually behind the wheel. When we're out driving and I do something 'wrong' he gets easily frustrated by me, which in turn frustrates me, and I lash out because I'm pissed about it.

 

I don't do it to cut him down--I do it to shut him up, in the moment. I know it's having a negative effect on our relationship though, which is why I'm working on it.

 

Well, that's a lot of words. At least he knows to tell you to chill out, and tell you straight to stop taking out your frustration on him.

 

As far as the rest of it, just stop doing it.

[zengirl]

It is really just like "F*ck, I'm angry!" I don't go into it with an intent to hurt him, and I don't feel good if or when I hurt him--and apparently I don't as he doesn't tell me that, and he would not hesitate to say so if I did hurt him. He always just says I need to calm down and take a chill pill, and that he doesn't really appreciate me expressing my anger and frustration in the way that I do. Expressing it in that way gets me what I want, though--him to shut up so I can focus on my driving.

 

I will say two things:

 

1. Gets you what you want. . . in the short term. You really don't know the long term effects now. As someone said, love drugs do mitigate fighting (especially for men, I think) in so many ways, and you guys likely still aren't past those good chemical stages, particularly if you have big fights (I actually think big, passionate fights can prolong love drugs in some people, but it likely depends on your psychology).

 

2. When you start looking at behaviors to "get you what you want" then you're going to get tunnel vision. This really is the difference between just "**** I'm angry" and manipulation---everyone gets angry, they just do. And everyone expresses it badly sometimes, they just do---whether it's a temper tantrum or shutting the person out and totally going cold or whatever. But it becomes actual manipulation when you start to do it for effect. And like most things, if you do something consistently for effect, its efficacy is going to diminish over time and become frustrating.

 

Assertiveness is about being your authentic self though. I don't know if anyone's authentic self is a manipulative bitch---certainly is likely, but it's definitely not their best self---and I cannot imagine anyone being happy as a manipulative bitch, assertive or not. It's why people often find that even though they may get what they want through crappy means sometimes, they wind up feeling empty later. A very real cliche, I suppose.

 

I don't like him criticizing me in the way that he does when I'm actually behind the wheel. When we're out driving and I do something 'wrong' he gets easily frustrated by me, which in turn frustrates me, and I lash out because I'm pissed about it.

 

I don't do it to cut him down--I do it to shut him up, in the moment. I know it's having a negative effect on our relationship though, which is why I'm working on it.

 

Yeah, that's not the same thing as manipulation. That's just having a temper and a particular insecurity/hot button about something. I don't think that's really all that big a deal to many, many people. It's more a temperament style than being a manipulative bitch. I would say it actually shows a lack of assertiveness---when you cannot be assertive, you get aggressive. But that's super common among women your age (I remember you being young, like early 20s?). It's actually hard for women to learn to be assertive in many cases, where we aren't always socialized properly for it, and most of us go through years of either doormattyness or aggression or swinging back and forth.

 

There is something attractive about attitude, because it demonstrates interest, passion, and conviction; in that way I fully agree with MrNate. And negative feedback is a motivator, because we all want to know we are doing good, and we all want to be rewarded for that.

 

But there is something unpalatable about giving your partner negative feedback when they're doing something positive, isn't there? For a selfish end, to a selfless act. Hm.

 

Negative feedback is what we use to express urgency. You put your hand on the stove, you need to move it now. That is why it seems so "effective" in the short term, because the negative demands attention.

 

Some awesome points in your whole post. And I think you're right on about human nature here. And also: This is why we like people who seem to be "picky" in some way and want them to like us. It's not because we want to be criticized, but because we want to feel special. If it's never enough, however, we will give up and get annoyed. This is why having standards and being assertive = important. But criticizing your sweetie because they bought you pink roses instead of red ones is kind of stupid.

 

Never giving a reward for 'doing good' is as problematic as never giving negative feedback for 'doing bad.' I also find, in male psychology in particular, most men tend to get the most frustrated in relationships where they feel like they cannot make their partner happy (not that anyone ever MAKES anyone happy, but you know what I mean). That doesn't mean they want a girl who's super easy to please necessarily --- they still want to feel special --- but they want a girl that seems possible to please and is pleased enough to make them feel up to the task.

 

I'm sure there's some complex way to manipulate this system to get the maximum amount of negative feedback in there to get him jumping through hoops but still believing it's possible, but that sounds exhausting to me. Just knowing who you are, what you want, and expressing it when you aren't getting it seems a lot easier.

 

That's really all TigressA is doing with her driving thing----she's just not learned the absolute best way to do it, which, frankly, happens. It can get negative as a pattern (no idea if hers will or won't) but it's not the same thing as the example in the thread of the woman who pish-poshed her husband's nice chocolate gesture or whatever. (I mean if your sweetie brings you chocolate and he should know you're allergic to chocolate, feel free to ask him why he did that and be a little miffed, mind you.)

 

That's when you're left with assertiveness. There's a difference between cutting someone down to manipulate them and standing up for yourself, what you believe in and your boundaries. I used to be "too sweet" and yes, I agree with you that men don't respect it (why should they?). But I've never had to resort to bitchiness. I realized that I was being too sweet in the hopes of convincing someone I was worth it. The solution wasn't to become a bitch, it was to accept that trying to control someone else's behavior was - to me at least - an exhausting endeavor.

 

Word. It sounds exhausting. Ha! I think I just kind of wrote that above and hadn't read your post yet.

 

Honestly, once you get used to assertiveness, you wonder how you ever did without it (I do, at least). Assertiveness is just constantly knowing who you are and what you will accept from other people, and it makes life so much simpler.

[tigressA]

I will say two things:

 

1. Gets you what you want. . . in the short term. You really don't know the long term effects now. As someone said, love drugs do mitigate fighting (especially for men, I think) in so many ways, and you guys likely still aren't past those good chemical stages, particularly if you have big fights (I actually think big, passionate fights can prolong love drugs in some people, but it likely depends on your psychology).

 

2. When you start looking at behaviors to "get you what you want" then you're going to get tunnel vision. This really is the difference between just "**** I'm angry" and manipulation---everyone gets angry, they just do. And everyone expresses it badly sometimes, they just do---whether it's a temper tantrum or shutting the person out and totally going cold or whatever. But it becomes actual manipulation when you start to do it for effect. And like most things, if you do something consistently for effect, its efficacy is going to diminish over time and become frustrating.

 

Assertiveness is about being your authentic self though. I don't know if anyone's authentic self is a manipulative bitch---certainly is likely, but it's definitely not their best self---and I cannot imagine anyone being happy as a manipulative bitch, assertive or not. It's why people often find that even though they may get what they want through crappy means sometimes, they wind up feeling empty later. A very real cliche, I suppose.

 

Most of the time I swear and yell; other times I just shut him out and don't talk. The former gets him riled up, telling me to chill out; the latter makes him contrite and he's all over me trying to figure out what's wrong. He's saying he's sorry for something he doesn't have to feel sorry for at all and hugging and kissing me and giving me these wry smiles to try to make me laugh. And even though I want to laugh right then, I stifle it for a slightly more prolonged effect. That's what I did with the freeway incident, combined with tears because I had been scared to death. And then I swore at him once the immediate shock dissolved and anger set in. Shutting him out was also what I did during our first big fight (the sex tape incident). That's what I do to manipulate him, as I'm deliberately making an effort to get a particular response. And I always get the response I want.

 

I don't think of our relationship as a power game--I don't worry about who has more or less control, who cares more or less. I'm just concerned with getting my way at times. And the way I get it has been the easiest way for me. I say it's easy because it's tried and true--it works.

[HeavenOrHell]

My partner wouldn't be into behaviour like that, nor would my most recent ex or probably any of the others, they've got more sense

I'm honest, sweet and giving, but it's not an act, it's not in my nature to be bitchy or swear at people, I'd attract the wrong sort of men if I were like that.

 

 

 

Earlier when I gave it to my BF straight about the driving instruction like a cold hard b*tch ("Am I clear?"), he immediately got defensive and said I could hire a professional if I really wanted. In the end though, he agreed to my guidelines. I didn't even apologize for my attitude. I didn't have to. When saying our goodbyes he was a sweetheart, as usual. When we bicker/argue, which isn't that often, I raise my voice and start swearing a lot, and he's usually the one to apologize first.

 

I remember posting a thread about the end of my last relationship that was hundreds of posts long. In it, I was remonstrated with for seeming very cold and calculating. One particular guy I dated on and off said sometimes he could see the wheels turning in my head, but never said anything because he was in his doormat phase and had really liked me. He said extreme manipulation seemed to be a natural part of my MO. But that didn't prevent him from wanting to rekindle our relationship when we briefly reconnected at the start of this year. This was after he had confronted me for having blatantly lied to him.

 

I'm consistently rewarded for being b*tchy and manipulative. When I first started dating and I was transparently honest and sweet and giving, it turned guys off. I had to pre-emptively end relationships that were going nowhere because the guy just didn't feel the same way I did. But once I started becoming manipulative, more selfish, and abrasive ("F*ck off!") the guys I was with were at my feet. Even if they at first acted like they wouldn't put up with it, they would inevitably come back around.

 

It can't be just me who's experienced this. I honestly think guys are just as susceptible to less-than-ideal treatment at the hands of a significant other as it's constantly said women are.

[betterdeal]

My ex liked domestic violence and called me gay for refusing to slap her around. So there are women who too like to be abused. Unfortunately three of her boyfriends went clinically insane and two tried to kill themselves; one successfully. Careful what you wish for.

[EasyHeart]

I don't think of our relationship as a power game--I don't worry about who has more or less control, who cares more or less. I'm just concerned with getting my way at times. And the way I get it has been the easiest way for me. I say it's easy because it's tried and true--it works.

It "works" with:

 

1) Men who are doormats and not capable of healthy relationships; or

2) Healthy men who don't have experience with women like you and fall for these tricks -- IN THE SHORT TERM.

 

In the former case, you are going to end up with a dysfunctional relationship; in the latter case, he will leave when he eventually figures out the pattern.

[zengirl]

Most of the time I swear and yell; other times I just shut him out and don't talk. The former gets him riled up, telling me to chill out; the latter makes him contrite and he's all over me trying to figure out what's wrong. He's saying he's sorry for something he doesn't have to feel sorry for at all and hugging and kissing me and giving me these wry smiles to try to make me laugh. And even though I want to laugh right then, I stifle it for a slightly more prolonged effect. That's what I did with the freeway incident, combined with tears because I had been scared to death. And then I swore at him once the immediate shock dissolved and anger set in. Shutting him out was also what I did during our first big fight (the sex tape incident). That's what I do to manipulate him, as I'm deliberately making an effort to get a particular response. And I always get the response I want.

 

I don't think of our relationship as a power game--I don't worry about who has more or less control, who cares more or less. I'm just concerned with getting my way at times. And the way I get it has been the easiest way for me. I say it's easy because it's tried and true--it works.

 

It won't work forever, though. Do you really want to be in a situation where you feel the need to do something to elicit a response from your partner for 20 years? Do you think that would really work? I just don't think so. Sooner or later, if you keep it up, there's going to be a fight where he calls you on it. And with a lot of guys and relationships, honestly, that might be too late. A lot of times men don't actually speak up against behavior they dislike until they're already emotionally out of the relationship (not always---all guys are different) and I've seen that happen with guys who have manipulative girlfriends all the time.

 

Showing some temper and having feelings is very different from deliberately yanking a guy around to get your way.

 

But the thing with men is they let it build up, in most cases. You can think it's all working well and you're getting your way, but it is being held against you in the long run. All men are different, but this is very true with my male friends and many of the men I've dated, at least. They are very accommodating, even to bad behavior, until they're not. Women aren't really like this in the same way, and I have even trouble explaining exactly how the phenomenon works. But I've seen many manipulative girls think they have a guy wrapped around their finger and then break him one day, he totally checks out and finds someone who won't treat him that way, and the girl has no idea what went wrong.

[Woggle]

Treating a man this way might get you what want in the short term because he just doesn't want to deal with the attitude but it will never truly get a man's devotion and respect. When one of you is away instead of looking forward to the day he gets to see you again he is probably glad to get some peace. The true sign of a man's devotion is when you take away the whip and the leash and he still goes the extra mile for you but I guess that is too much effort for some to inspire that kind of devotion in a man. It's much easier to whip him into a lap dog which works only in the short term.

 

If a woman said that to me after getting her chocolate I would take it and eat it myself while having the time of my life with my friends.

[EasyHeart]

But the thing with men is they let it build up, in most cases. You can think it's all working well and you're getting your way, but it is being held against you in the long run. All men are different, but this is very true with my male friends and many of the men I've dated, at least. They are very accommodating, even to bad behavior, until they're not. Women aren't really like this in the same way, and I have even trouble explaining exactly how the phenomenon works. But I've seen many manipulative girls think they have a guy wrapped around their finger and then break him one day, he totally checks out and finds someone who won't treat him that way, and the girl has no idea what went wrong.

Oh yes they are!!!!

[Kamille]

 

Word. It sounds exhausting. Ha! I think I just kind of wrote that above and hadn't read your post yet.

 

Honestly, once you get used to assertiveness, you wonder how you ever did without it (I do, at least). Assertiveness is just constantly knowing who you are and what you will accept from other people, and it makes life so much simpler.

 

You did say it in a much clearer way. Assertiveness is definitely about knowing who you are and where your boundaries lie. I think T and I have both established that knowing where our limits are is something we struggle with. That being said, assertiveness proved way easier than manipulation in handling my blurred boundaries. With manipulation, they only get more blurry. With assertiveness, there comes a point where I know I've reached my limit and know I have to communicate it.

 

The other trick to assertiveness is learning to communicate in assertive ways, that preferably don't involve raising one's voice. I get the impression this is the bit that Ta might struggle with. T, you say yourself you either yell or clam up. Did you ever try taking a deep breath, figuring out what bothers you about the situation, and trying out a clichéd but effective: "When you do this, it makes me feel (...). I want us to be able to (...)."? It's not much different than you making suggestions about how you could continue the driving instructions, only, it saves on negative energy and allows for both of you to discuss the issue. With experience it becomes easier, and conflicts in a relationship no longer provoke so much anxiety. You end up trusting you can solve issues for the best.

[HeavenOrHell]

She sounds spoilt, ungrateful and manipulative.

 

 

This is one that I see a friend of mine do all the time, and it works like magic: Her guy will pick out some perfect thing for her, like caramel sea salt 70% dark organic chocolate. Then he brings it home to her, and instead of expressing appreciation, she'll be unimpressed and say something like, "Oh, I wanted to try the 75% one." I used to think she was SUCH a major bitch for this. But now I get it.

 

Next time, he'll one-up himself by bringing her home 3 different, better, more expensive options.

 

The woman gets what she wants every damn time. And the man -- who is a TOTAL catch, cute as hell, making great money, alpha guy, the life of the party -- seems thrilled to be her bitch.

[zengirl]

Oh yes they are!!!!

 

Oh, I don't mean women take abuse (some do, some don't, just like men). I mean the phenomenon is somehow different. . . as I said, hard to explain. But I know a lot of guys who seem really stoic and supportive but it's totally building, whereas I think women seem to swing wider emotionally. That makes no sense, really, but words are failing me.

 

You did say it in a much clearer way. Assertiveness is definitely about knowing who you are and where your boundaries lie. I think T and I have both established that knowing where our limits are is something we struggle with. That being said, assertiveness proved way easier than manipulation in handling my blurred boundaries. With manipulation, they only get more blurry. With assertiveness, there comes a point where I know I've reached my limit and know I have to communicate it.

 

The other trick to assertiveness is learning to communicate in assertive ways, that preferably don't involve raising one's voice. I get the impression this is the bit that Ta might struggle with. T, you say yourself you either yell or clam up. Did you ever try taking a deep breath, figuring out what bothers you about the situation, and trying out a clichéd but effective: "When you do this, it makes me feel (...). I want us to be able to (...)."? It's not much different than you making suggestions about how you could continue the driving instructions, only, it saves on negative energy and allows for both of you to discuss the issue. With experience it becomes easier, and conflicts in a relationship no longer provoke so much anxiety. You end up trusting you can solve issues for the best.

 

Oh, totally good tips. For me, my "assertiveness training" was in sales---I had a great sales manager who recognized I was a kickass ad sales person but kind of an aggressive person in general (I was 21) and he really demonstrated to me the difference between assertive (happy) and aggressive (angry) both in my saleswork and life (he's still a good friend, too). But it was amazing the day that I realized that the world would respond positively to me if I just made it clear what I wanted and needed.

[betterdeal]

Has no-one here heard the story of the Sword of Damocles?

[tigressA]

It won't work forever, though. Do you really want to be in a situation where you feel the need to do something to elicit a response from your partner for 20 years? Do you think that would really work? I just don't think so. Sooner or later, if you keep it up, there's going to be a fight where he calls you on it. And with a lot of guys and relationships, honestly, that might be too late. A lot of times men don't actually speak up against behavior they dislike until they're already emotionally out of the relationship (not always---all guys are different) and I've seen that happen with guys who have manipulative girlfriends all the time.

 

Showing some temper and having feelings is very different from deliberately yanking a guy around to get your way.

 

But the thing with men is they let it build up, in most cases. You can think it's all working well and you're getting your way, but it is being held against you in the long run. All men are different, but this is very true with my male friends and many of the men I've dated, at least. They are very accommodating, even to bad behavior, until they're not. Women aren't really like this in the same way, and I have even trouble explaining exactly how the phenomenon works. But I've seen many manipulative girls think they have a guy wrapped around their finger and then break him one day, he totally checks out and finds someone who won't treat him that way, and the girl has no idea what went wrong.

 

I know it's not going to work forever. I have a feeling he's starting to catch on to me a little re: shutting him out. And he has grown increasingly less tolerant of the way I channel my temper. He's been calling my bluff, like when I said that if he isn't willing to take on the full responsibility of teaching me how to drive then I'll hire a professional--he told me fine, go ahead and hire one, I'm not going to teach you anymore. It was only after a bit more wrangling that he calmed down and said, okay, when we go out we'll plan routes and whatnot.

 

Kam, I have done that "When you do this, it makes me feel...". I did it early on. I've lost sight of it since we moved in together, and particularly with all this driving stuff. I'm in the moment and trying to focus and I get easily frustrated, so it's near impossible for me to think about what I'm doing. I automatically slip into manipulation mode. I'm better at handling disagreements when they don't start while I'm behind the wheel or when I'm really emotionally overwhelmed.

 

It's like...I don't even know where to start without being manipulative. I'm so used to doing it.

[betterdeal]

Oh, I don't mean women take abuse (some do, some don't, just like men). I mean the phenomenon is somehow different. . . as I said, hard to explain. But I know a lot of guys who seem really stoic and supportive but it's totally building, whereas I think women seem to swing wider emotionally. That makes no sense, really, but words are failing me.

 

Well, we're often stuck in a rut, whereby we feel if we express hurt we are ridiculed for being weak, told to grow an extra set of testicles, to man up, and if we don't we're "emotional unavailable".