Has your view changed?

[RepairMinded]

As usual you're misconstruing what I said, but be that as it may, forgiveness can occur at any point. You can forgive before or after reconciliation, or even if reconciliation doesn't occur at all. You're a person that doesn't believe if forgiving, and therefore will never understand that.

 

No, I simply don't believe that forgiveness by the BS is in any way necessary for reconciliation to occur.

 

And, you now have admitted that you agree with me.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I didn't explain myself well. It's not about how I am viewed now by anyone else. It's about how I view others. I was a very judgemental person before, even to those who had cheated but had reconciled. I'm just saying my view has changed. I believe people who have cheated can change. Before I couldn't. I have no control on how other people view me and I don't expect to. If I am tarnished in the eyes of another, it's the consequence of my action.

 

The question is... do you see yourself differently? Have your views on cheating changed? How so?

 

What puzzles me is how did you view yourself before the affair, during, and now after? Has your view changed?

 

For many cheats I see the same person at each stage. I mean sure they can change... we can all change, but is that really the point? I think it's more about who we really are than it is about whether we can change.

 

So... Who are you?

 

I'd go so far as to say it didn't just make me view affairs/cheaters differently, it made me view life differently.

 

I would say the same for me. However... now that I'm with someone else... going on a year... Life seems better than ever.

 

Yes, I still see all the things in people that make them bad... but I see the good again too. That makes all the difference.

 

If one can't forgive, there can be no reconciliation.

 

True, but I would just like to add to idea.

 

I forgive my cheating Xgf... but that doesn't make reconciliation possible. Forgiveness and consequences are separate.

 

It takes a lot more than forgiveness to move forward.

[Snowflower]

Just because a person might not be able to forgive someone for a bad action in the past doesn't render reconciliation impossible. I don't think forgiveness has anything much to do with reconciliation. Reconciliation is about rebuilding the relationship based on positive actions in the present and the future. Forgiveness is about how one chooses to think about the past.

 

Well said, RM! You worded it much better than I could have.

 

I recently heard that forgiveness happens when one gives up the wish that the past could have been different. I kind of like this thought and I haven't reached that point of forgiveness.

 

That being said, reconciliation is about the present and the future like mentioned above.

 

Interesting that this thread has moved to the topic of forgiveness.

[Tech_E]

My wife and I recently had a conversation almost directly on point where this thread has landed. A little while ago I told her that I had finally gotten to a point where I could forgive her for her affair. Now that is true. However, I am not sure I'll be able to forgive certain aspects of the affair and actions she took. Does that mean we are not going to be able make our reconciliation work?

 

I personally don't think so, I can only say that I'll just learn to live with the past and leave it where it is.

 

So I do not believe forgiveness and reconiliation are necessary in the same breath.

[drifter777]

Before my wife's cheating I thought I would react violently such as bitch-slapping her and throwing her whore-ing ass out the nearest window. When I was actually faced with it I was so stunned I couldn't really think straight. By the time I was able to react, I just wanted the pain to stop and accepted her offer to reconcile. If she would have handed me a pistol instead I probably would have shot myself in the head. Twice.

 

Yes. My opinion of cheaters & cheating changed when it actually happened to me.

[2sunny]

The question is... do you see yourself differently? Have your views on cheating changed? How so?

 

yes, i see myself differently than before. thank God. my experience continues to change me and who i am... who i have become now. it's constantly evolving. i don't have any certain mindset for infidelity like i did years ago - i approach each situation individually... without judgement... without the idea of the outcome but as a basis for each person to be kind and loving to themselves - and then also to others.

 

yes, my views on cheating changed. how so? my mind is more open, more forgiving to those that take ACTION to repair the damage they caused. to set things right. to heal and open the heart again. to love with abandon when it's present - without boundaries and guidelines that "others" try to tell me what it might look like for me. every situation is different and with it's own merit.

 

what works for me - works. IF someone hasn't earned my respect and trust... we have nothing to work with.

 

 

FWIW - my exH was never sorry he cheated - just sorry he got caught.

[drifter777]

If one can't forgive, there can be no reconciliation.

 

I'm living proof that this is not true. It has been over 20 years since she cheated and we're still together. She has been a great wife ever since the incident and has bore and raised two more children. I have been able to compartmentalize my shame, anger, and resentment enough to live a mostly normal life. My wife has recently stopped claiming that there was some good that came from her cheating and faced the fact that what she did was selfish, hurtful, and wrong. She is finally truly sorry. Her admission of guilt has made me feel much better, but I have not forgiven her.

 

For me, forgiveness is like giving my blessing to what she did. You know, like saying "now I understand and it's ok". Everyone says that's not what forgiveness is, but that's what it is to me and that's all that matters. I will never accept what she did and tell her that it was ok. Never.

[Kidd]

In my opinion, failure to forgive precludes reconciliation. If you haven't forgiven the WS, what state is the M in for either person to be able to say it is reconciled? But forgiveness is only one step towards reconciliation and perhaps one of the last. I had to feel safe first, then I could forgive, and then we could both open up again to actually reconcile and fix the marriage. JMHO.

[GorillaTheater]

In my opinion, failure to forgive precludes reconciliation. If you haven't forgiven the WS, what state is the M in for either person to be able to say it is reconciled? But forgiveness is only one step towards reconciliation and perhaps one of the last. I had to feel safe first, then I could forgive, and then we could both open up again to actually reconcile and fix the marriage. JMHO.

 

I agree. Without forgiveness, about the most you can hope for is peaceful coexistence. I can't think of a single reason I'd seek a genuine reconciliation with a woman I couldn't forgive. The concept makes no sense to me.

[ShatteredReality]

I know I am jumping in 4 pages in, so I may very well be repeating what others have said.

 

My views...thoughts...changed drastically. Before I cheated...I basically thought people who did were all around bad people. I didn't have a very realistic view about it, actually. I had very strong opinions, but it was all very one sided - cheaters were selfish and slimy and deserving of every ounce of pain they got in the end. I never took into consideration the pain that could possibly be going on before the event...nor did I truly feel they "felt" any of the pain after.

 

Then I cheated. It was an act I didn't think I was even capable of performing. I honestly thought you were either capable of cheating or not and I was one of the lucky ones who couldn't because I was not a terrible person in my core.

 

Obviously it took me a long time to come around to thinking I wasn't a terrible person to the core again...because after I did it, rather than change how I thought about cheating, I simply changed how I thought about myself. I must be a terrible person to do this...I must be worthless...

 

I was convinced my H would put me through a wall - and that I'd deserve it. He neither hit me nor left me.

 

It's been a long and painful road for us both, but we're coming out on the other side, perhaps a little more war worn than before - but together and in love. We have been forced by my awful actions to face the facts that my cheating was a symptom of much deeper issues in our marriage...that in order to get past what I'd done, we had to work on the other stuff as well. We have worked together on it and I have come to see that a person who cheats is not someone who is destined to be lost forever - not if they're willing to pick up and move forward.

 

While I maintain that cheating is one of the worst things a person can do to another person, I no longer see the situation as hopeless, or the cheater as worthless...I just see a situation that needs serious attention and help. Sometimes splitting up is the best response, but sometimes it's not...just depends on the situation...

 

So yeah...not so black and white anymore for me.

Edited July 22, 2011 by ShatteredReality
sp

[reboot]

I'm living proof that this is not true. It has been over 20 years since she cheated and we're still together. She has been a great wife ever since the incident and has bore and raised two more children. I have been able to compartmentalize my shame, anger, and resentment enough to live a mostly normal life. My wife has recently stopped claiming that there was some good that came from her cheating and faced the fact that what she did was selfish, hurtful, and wrong. She is finally truly sorry. Her admission of guilt has made me feel much better, but I have not forgiven her.

 

For me, forgiveness is like giving my blessing to what she did. You know, like saying "now I understand and it's ok". Everyone says that's not what forgiveness is, but that's what it is to me and that's all that matters. I will never accept what she did and tell her that it was ok. Never.

 

OK, but that's not what I consider reconciled. You have just made the best (for you) of a bad situation. "Still together" does not mean "reconciled".

[David Cain]

My view will never change.

[Summer Breeze]

I agree. Without forgiveness, about the most you can hope for is peaceful coexistence. I can't think of a single reason I'd seek a genuine reconciliation with a woman I couldn't forgive. The concept makes no sense to me.

 

That was me to a T. I had every confidence my xH wouldn't cheat on me again. I also had every confidence I would never forgive him and to me in order to trust you have to have forgiven. I knew before I was M that if I was cheated on it would be over and I didn't change when I was faced with it. I do not believe that he is evil and horrible. There were circumstances but at the end of the day I was not important enough for him to fight for. You can say all you want that the BS isn't part of the reason why someone cheats but that's bull. For whatever reason they are not important enough to keep the M on track. Period. It may be raised in the WS imagination or whatever but they are at some point considered expendable. How could I forgive that? I know. There are some who do and I respect that but I'm talking about my thoughts and I am well aware they are my opinion and not reality for the world. I'm not trying to convince anyone of it and I'm not trying to stir things. I'm giving my opinion only.

[Summer Breeze]

OK, but that's not what I consider reconciled. You have just made the best (for you) of a bad situation. "Still together" does not mean "reconciled".

 

That's what I thought too. I read that finally after 20 years she was truly sorry. I couldn't have done it.

 

It's interesting. I forgave my xH not long after the D was signed and cooled off a little bit. I didn't have to be angry anymore and I didn't have to worry about anything. It was done and I'd walked away so I could forgive because it really had no future consequences if I 'let my guard down' so to speak. This last paragraph doesn't have anything to do with the quoted bit. Just something that went through my mind. It got lonely so I had to let it out!

[serial muse]

I think the biggest thing that changed for me (as a former BS) was that, before my exH's affair, I thought I would know if a partner was cheating. I was one of those superior people who couldn't quite believe the BS when s/he says s/he doesn't know.

 

Of course, I was completely in the dark. I think I had to live it to really understand how that could be - the deep, dark confusion, the excuses, the constant state of agitation and wondering if it's just that my partner is having a miserable time at work (as he said) or if his distance is due to a myriad other small resentments and outside anxieties that crop up in a long-term relationship - or if he's just stopped caring about me. It honestly didn't occur to me that he was cheating. And now I know exactly how that could be and that's it's entirely possible for me to be thoroughly, completely snowed. I never thought that could be.

 

This, of course, had all kinds of repercussions in my other relationships, good and bad. I found it impossible for a while to trust my own instincts, which made it very difficult to leave one bad subsequent post-marriage relationship, and then, when I met someone new, it was an uphill battle to conquer those same trust issues enough to develop a good post-marriage relationship (which I'm still in, happily).

 

But on the other hand, I think I did develop a deeper level of empathy. And I learned to accept another truth: There are some things you simply can't control or predict, and you can drive yourself crazy trying to anticipate how and when an emotional thunderbolt might occur. Better to learn to roll with it.

[drifter777]

OK, but that's not what I consider reconciled. You have just made the best (for you) of a bad situation. "Still together" does not mean "reconciled".

 

To my way of thinking, forgiveness means that the memory of the incident no longer causes anger, resentment, shame, etc., and may not be possible for some people.

 

In the case of infidelity, both forgiveness and reconciliation are ongoing processes; not events that magically occur. If the couple splits, reconciliation obviously stops and achieving forgiveness may or may not occur. Each couple attempting to reconcile is at some particular stage of reconciliation and forgiveness, and the process never ends. Hopefully, it gets easier.

[Memphis Raines]

What are your thoughts? Did you or your BS or WS react the way you thought you would? Did things turn out exactly as you always believed?

 

yes, I knew I'd leave if my wife ever cheated, and I did.

 

now I will admit, the thought of not being with my kids on a daily basis kept me from filing immediately, because a cheating wife will still get the kids as long as there isn't anything else you can do to prove them unfit, but after a month, I went to an attorney.

 

So yes, it turned out as I believed, but it took a bit to come to that point.

[JaneyAmazed]

JA, I understood what you meant. I know you believe cheating is wrong. I was be PC, the naughty step gets old after awhile. I actually never thought there was a certain type, but I do believe those who continue for years on end have commonalities.

 

Thanks Bent, I use you as my moral compass at times. I question my posts after I read yours. I am still in the process of figuring myself out. I've been in IC for a while and I'm making positive changes. It's a painful process, but I'm feeling better about who I am becoming.

[bentnotbroken]

Thanks Bent, I use you as my moral compass at times. I question my posts after I read yours. I am still in the process of figuring myself out. I've been in IC for a while and I'm making positive changes. It's a painful process, but I'm feeling better about who I am becoming.

 

 

Don't. Use your relationship with God. Mine is just as faulty as the next guy.

[JaneyAmazed]

Don't. Use your relationship with God. Mine is just as faulty as the next guy.

 

 

I know, you're right. I do use my relationship with God..now more so than ever. I was sort of joking about the moral compass, but I have learned a lot from you even if it stings a little. I read about what you've gone through (in the thread about labels). Bless your heart. You are a survivor!

[bentnotbroken]

I know, you're right. I do use my relationship with God..now more so than ever. I was sort of joking about the moral compass, but I have learned a lot from you even if it stings a little. I read about what you've gone through (in the thread about labels). Bless your heart. You are a survivor!

 

 

Nawww, I'm just blessed.

[JaneyAmazed]

As usual, the usual people will attempt to turn this thread into something the OP never intended. I'll try to answer the questions asked.

 

My opinions on cheating were formed early in my life. My father cheated incessantly on my mother (whom I adored). That was personal.

 

In the past I've known people that cheated, men I worked with that cheated on their wives, women I worked with that cheated on the husbands. Friends that cheated. I never looked down on or judged these people. It wasn't personal.

 

When I found out my wife had cheated on me, yes it made me view affairs/cheaters differently. Of course it did. It was personal. When you learn the person you most trust in this world can't be trusted, when that person sticks a knife in your back and then sweetly lies about doing so, how could it not change your views? How could it not change you?

 

I'd go so far as to say it didn't just make me view affairs/cheaters differently, it made me view life differently.

 

I agree you can't form opinions about someone based on the fact that they cheat/have cheated. Bad people cheat, sure they do. Guess what, so do some good people. And there are plenty of "bad" people that are faithful.

 

I was also one of those who would have said that I wouldn't stay with a cheater. Imagine my surprise when I realized that was exactly what I intended to do.

 

And to those who go around telling the WS here that their spouse never really forgave them, you don't know that. You can't know that. I forgave my WS completely. We're not together anymore, but it isn't because of her A.

 

That does happen a lot doesn't it?! That's why I almost hesitated to ask the question. The battle becomes once again... those who think all cheaters are the same and will never change vs.those who believe every situation is unique. I like your post by the way. Forgiveness is a personal decision. Forgiving a WS is a choice, and it can be done. I know my H forgave me. If he couldn't, he wouldn't still be with me. HE told me that, and I believe him.

[Tech_E]

Janey that sort of thing is bound to happen on a forum like this. The thing is for me at least some of them have valid arguments and express them in a way that doesn't alienate them. Some of them are just plain _____. They usually burn themselves out and go away though.

 

The beauty of LS is that everyone is allowed a say as long as it stays in bounds. The ignore list can be useful as well

[wheelwright]

As an xMOW (forgive the label - I am moving on ), I can only say that in my pre-A days I had no idea about the level of suffering a BS can go through.

 

And now I know, and that has been re-inforced from BSs who post on LS.

 

I would never put someone through that again. Or put myself through causing it.

 

I never judged people who had As, but sometimes saw that they were on a path of suffering when they were involved in one.

 

That is the same now, except I am much better informed about the possible degree and type of suffering involved.

 

I am more interested in why As hurt so much. And in what ways cultural situations colour perspectives and hurt.

 

As a WS, I would not have been able to reconcile with H without forgiveness. And that would only have been the start of sorting out the M.

 

H could not forgive me, which is fair enough.

 

I think like others I used to have a fairly simplistic view. M is bad or loveless = A. Or WS = someone weak and misguided in terms of love and sex.

 

Even if the above two points are true, after DDAY what happens can be that people fully explore these 'truths'. And in this, I do see a positive.

[RepairMinded]

As a xow......I have many, many regrets. To allow oneself to get too close to someone who is not fully available brings boatloads of pain and guilt and it's a choice that can never be undone. It's not the sum of who I am, but it's something that I will forever carry around.

 

Exactly.

 

And, if you happened to also have been a married woman who cheated on your husband during your affair, the fact that your husband said "I forgive you" doesn't change anything about what you said, above.