Is infidelity wrapped up in human nature?

[moimeme]

Seems every time I get into some pools, I find a fishook attached to me. Not gonna bite anymore. Gonna get me some grub and go back to today's occupation; being indolent.

[DiorAddict]

Tony, we all know the truth to this answer, but whether we are willing to admit it is another story. The fact of the matter is, it's best for a family if the mother and father stay together. Children need that security and I think end up more secure and complete when mom and dad stay together. If men just slept around like bunnies, there'd be too many children asking "where's daddy?" and that's not a good feeling to have as a child. So men, spread your seed, but with your wife. Have lots of sex and kids with her, not with every other woman on this planet! Be good fathers, stand by your wife and child(children). To me, that's being a man. We are supposed to be PROgressing as a species, not REgressing, and going back to what cavemen did is not that bright of an idea to me....Hmph!

[saintfrancis]

Don't confuse curiosity for what lies "out there" with selfish self indulgence.

[moimeme]

Don't confuse curiosity for what lies "out there" with selfish self indulgence

 

Precisely. It's such a temptation to paint this particular unpleasant behaviour with a gilded brush. You don't see people trying to explain away impulses to murder or steal in terms of some fine ancestral trait or some biologically-induced necessity but people tie themselves in knots to put a pretty face on infidelity. Bottom line is that it results from lack of caring - lack of caring behaviour on the part of the spouse sometimes, leaving the other spouse to go seek caring from someone else, or lack of caring on the part of a cheater, who doesn't care about the feelings of the spouse. There's nothing pretty, fine, or noble beneath it all.

 

Now, if all the surveys, studies, research, etc. done so far had uncovered a lot of people who said 'I just wanted to try me out a new flavour' then maybe the 'curiosity' theory might bear investigating - but so far, that's not been the case. That is actually quite a shallow reason to do such a thing; people are deeper than that and their needs are greater. The issues underlying infidelity are much more related to one's desire for love and acceptance than they are to one's wish to go do new stuff.

 

But then, Tony said this wasn't his question so we're debating the theoretical question that didn't actually exist until the actual question appears

[Tony T]

"Tony said this wasn't his question so we're debating the theoretical question that didn't actually exist until the actual question appears"

 

The actual question appears right up top in the original post. However, I have already expressed my imcomptence at expressing myself and therefore will not make an attempt to reword my question, or rather topic for discussion here. That's all from me.

[moimeme]

I have already expressed my imcomptence at expressing myself and therefore will not make an attempt to reword my question, or rather topic for discussion here. That's all from me.

 

 

This would be a really nifty discussion....

 

Earlier you said;

 

I didn't want to put my own ideas into this until I heard from others

 

You could do it that way; pose your ideas and then we could discuss!

[Tony T]

"You could do it that way; pose your ideas and then we could discuss!"

 

As stated earlier, I wanted to wait until I got other opinions first. Then I later stated I would put this question up another time. Way too busy today.

[meanon]

I guess it's inevitable that discussions about the nature of human motivation will drift into a blame game about the characteristics of people who act on such motivation.

 

I really don't think curiosity is a driving force in behaviour.

 

Explorers, adventurers and extreme sports enthusiasts share thrill seeking characteristics. Inventors and entrepreneurs seem to be exceptionally goal driven and persist long beyond the point when most others would have given up, becoming increasingly inventive. I suppose if they are thwarted by family life then very driven people may find infidelity an attractive option ("There is no more sombre enemy of good art than the pram in the hall").

 

In very long marriages many people are faced with the problem of love/attraction for another. It's too common to simply be a feature of certain personality traits and too forceful to be described as mere curiosity. I think it has to do with the changing nature of love over time. How people respond to this largely depends on how strong the marriage is and the strength and variety of other sources of emotional support.

[midori]

Originally posted by zarathustra

Compared to the affair relationship, they do. In an affair, people tend to give their best--whether it's sex, romance, insight, wit, etc. The marriage, as a result, suffers from neglect.

 

The new lover is like new unexplored territory that you not only want to conquer but also to explore, map and learn. The new lover is a new world.

 

An affair is the offspring of care, curiosity and carnality. Care forms the attachment, curiosity deepens the attachment and carnality keeps the attachment going--usually in the face of universal disapproval.

 

So perhaps people who have affairs are Christopher Columbus's of the Heart.

 

Maybe I'm a romantic still -- entirely possible although you'd think it would have been beaten out of me in recent years -- but I can't help but wonder if the married state that Zara, and apparently Chris Rock, describe are marriages that were undertaken, if not for the "wrong" reasons, then maybe not for the best reasons. I'll try to elaborate on what I mean. Basically I think a lot of people make some of the most important choices of their lives without putting sufficient thought into the matter, and fail to foresee the consequences of their choices.

 

People who are working regular 9-5 jobs that are to them mere jobs which they don't find to be very interesting spend at minimum 40 hours a week doing stuff that they really couldn't care less about. Assuming they get 8 hours of sleep a night (ha ha not if they have infants or small children, but just for argument's sake), they'll have 112 waking hours. So that's, what, 36 % of their waking hours doing stuff that's just tolerable to them. And that doesn't include time spent commuting, the fact that most people don't just spend 40 hours at work each week. Then there are the tedious chores associated with life with children. Anyway, add it all up, and what percentage of one's waking time is spent doing things that one considers worthwhile, let alone enjoyable?

 

That's just the background. Now consider what causes many people to get married: is it because you found the person to be endlessly fascinating and full of ideas that really intrigue you? Is it because with every conversation you feel like you're learning something new -- about them, or about the world? Often not, at least from what I've observed. Maybe not everyone is seeking to have a life that's intellectually stimulating ... but if, after years of marriage, you're complaining (the general "you" not you specifically, Zara) that your relationship with your spouse isn't exciiting or intriguing, you have to wonder what's going on.

 

I guess I'm just speculating that a lot of people take the paths of least resistance when they choose their careers, and their partners. When that happens, it's no wonder that some of them are later dissatisfied. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that having a job you love, and marrying someone you could happily talk to and make love with all day are guarantees that life and love won't eventually go stale, or even sour. But I can't help but wonder, how many people who find themselves wondering why they're stuck would be stuck if they'd asked more questions and behaved more cautiously before making momentous choices?

 

I know that this thread is about infidelity and the roots thereof; I think what I've raised is relevant to the discussion. I expect that different people cheat for different reasons. I don't think that humans generally are predisposed to infidelity. What I do think is that people cheat on their spouse when something isn't right in their life. What I outlined above was what seems to me to be a plausible explanation for the sense of stale boredom that Zarathustra put forward as a condition that might lead one to cheat.

[zarathustra]

What I do think is that people cheat on their spouse when something isn't right in their life.

 

Midori, that's the $64,000 Question: Does marital malaise spring from spousal selection misjudgment (ie, choice) or , rather, is marital discontent an inevitable byproduct of marriage, monogamy and time (ie, institutional strains)?

 

I don't have the answer.

 

I'd like to believe that the marriage/monogamy institution is not the problem, as opposed to bad mating choices . I'm not entirely convinced, however, that the revered institution can be let off the hook that easily.

 

The problem is that people get married who shouldn't; that people outlive their marriages like they outlive their dental fillings; and that monogamy-marriage may not be the best arrangement within which at least some people lead their affectional lives.

 

The problem is not that marriage-monogamy is overrated. The problem, rather, is that marriage-monogamy is ill suited for a large number of individuals, the overwhelming majority of whom are productive, healthy, mature , tax paying citizens. Marriage-monogamy, as a result, is honored in word, and betrayed in deed. Much like reporting taxable income.

 

We humans need to bond, to form erotic contracts and attachments. We love attachments.

 

Marriage-monogamy, however, is only one of a multitude of ways to live these attachments. It's time to end marriage's cultural hegemony and recognize the legitimacy of new forms of social bonding.

 

One size does not fit all.

[Tony T]

Your ideas about marriage aren't particularly brand new but you certainly advanced them eloquently.

 

Why is it that most parents, knowing your facts to be correct, don't advise their offspring of them? Is this in order to fake them out so the species can be continued? Is it that we fake our ownselves out? Isn't it remarkable that romantic love had to come about in order to blind us to the fact that, while someone might be a great childbearer, they would not make a great mate? Do you think romantic love was invented by the brain as evolutionary insurance the species would continue? There was a time, I'm sure, in the evolutionary process when humans had far more indiscriminate sex (than they do now) without consideration of the consequences of disease and even pregnancy. When societal mores developed to a point, wasn't it perhaps necessary for the brain invent some emotional dynamic to drive the reproductive process irregardless of other future consequences? Didn't that have to happen once man figured out the biology of pregnancy and how it could be avoided.....and eventually came up with birth control?

 

How many love children are just that, products of a momentary lapse in common sense but driven to their births by brain chemicals secreted into the parents by an evolved organ which programs our behavior to conform to the requirements of the species?

 

Now, Zara, I know you're smart enough to tackle these. Don't be in a rush. You're a good man!

[zarathustra]

TO: Professor Tony

From: Zara

Re: Course Assignments

 

Professor Tony , please give me at least 24 hours (or at least until after work) to answer your penetrating queries. I promise that my "Romantic Love is a Necessarily Illusion" Paper will be on your desk by 9:00am. That is, unless I fall in love, again.

[moimeme]

I'd say 'yes' to it all, Tony. 'Romantic love', I fear, is the trick Nature plays on us to get us to rub uglies enough to make new humans. That's why I don't trust it. It's fun; it's an amusement park ride, but you gotta know that eventually the ride ends. And while I do love a good roller-coaster, I'm even fonder of terra firma, so the post-romance companionate love is really much lovelier in many ways - at least for me.

 

I think, if people could keep in their heads that the operator will shut the ride down after your three minutes are up, they may not decide to marry based on romantic love but see whether, after disembarking, they are left with joy because they have found their ride companions to be compatible companions or nausea from too many ups and downs.

[Tony T]

Many thanks, Zara. Looking forward to your presentation.

[BlockHead]

Tony

Isn't it remarkable that romantic love had to come about in order to blind us to the fact that, while someone might be a great childbearer, they would not make a great mate? Do you think romantic love was invented by the brain as evolutionary insurance the species would continue?

When I think of “romantic love,” I think of serenades. When I think of lust, I think of glandular and hormonal action.

 

People are living a lot longer today than in the past. Maybe romance is something to make marriage more tolerable, or maybe it is a conspiracy involving Hollywood and some romance novel publishers. The divorce rate is high so maybe part of it is to keep people together long enough to procreate.

[meanon]

Many thanks, Zara. Looking forward to your presentation.

 

Me too!!!

[zarathustra]

On the other hand, there must be a few brilliant scholars of love out there < cough, meanon> who I'm sure can enlighten us more than I--a mere unemployed underwear model.

[Tony T]

"On the other hand, there must be a few brilliant scholars of love out there < cough, meanon> who I'm sure can enlighten us more than I--a mere unemployed underwear model."

 

I hope this isn't a cop out to your offer to lend light and answers to the questions I posed a few threads above. I hope you will come back to give your take on this. I am humbly awaiting your return.

[meanon]

I told you, Zara - he'll give you a detention

 

On the other hand, there must be a few brilliant scholars of love out there < cough, meanon> who I'm sure can enlighten us more than I--a mere unemployed underwear model.

 

I'm thinking about it - will post as soon as I finish looking through this catalogue....

[meanon]

No sorry I am not a sufficiently brilliant scholar of love for your assignment, Tony....

 

Back to the marital malaise being caused by either poor choice or institutional strains.

 

I think it's both. No matter how ideal the match, eventually the challenge goes and a degree of challenge is critical to engagement and interest for many, many people.

 

If there is a lot of love, friendship, mutual interests (particularly children) then that more than makes up for it. If these bonds are not so strong, the marriage begins to cool, the love begins to ebb away along with the interest, the new looks ever more attractive.

[Thinkalot]

Marriage is a rather huge leap of faith isn't it? All around me, marriages are falling apart. Two in our office recently have, both had been married more than 20 years. My closest work mate has what appears to be a great marriage however, and he gives me hope that such a thing is possible in today's world. Hell, I have hope at any rate I guess...I am determined to prove that it can exist too!

 

These debates are interesting to read in any case, even though I don't feel I have the answers as to 'why' people cheat. So many factors come into play.

[zarathustra]

All around me, marriages are falling apart. Two in our office recently have, both had been married more than 20 years.

 

In my experience, already fragile marriages usually implode after 20 years, once the kids have grown and are well into their teens or early 20s and heading out of the house.

 

Many couples, during the intense child rearing years, invest the best of themselves into their children and jobs. Whatever's left usually goes to the marriage. The marital drain is particularly acute when both parents work demanding jobs.

 

You stop talking to your spouse about relationship issues and, instead, focus on schoolwork, daily chores, the stuff that has to get done to start over the next day. You become partners, not lovers.

 

Life's a grind and sometimes, without spouses even knowing it, the marital bonds and interest slowly start to whither. Kids are a great diversion--all is subordinated to them.

 

At some point, the kids become involved with their friends and you once again must make conversation with your spouse, and you have nothing to say. There's nothing left to the marriage but the children, and they're leaving the nest.

 

It's then that divorce, separation and infidelity become attractive options. It's one thing to be bored, it's quite another to be bored and awkwardly alienated from one's spouse. This "stranger in the house" phenomenon is quite unsettling.

 

The tragedy, of course, is that usually only one spouse feels this way.

 

That further complicates things.

 

The moral: Stay passionately close during the busy years because once you become less busy there might be a stranger in your bed lying next to you.

[Thinkalot]

zara...you make very wise points there. I am yet to reach the having kids phase of my life, but I sure will try and make sure that my relationship continues to be nourished (as best as will be possible) when that time comes. Kids can also bond people closer together from what I have seen.

[zarathustra]

Kids can also bond people closer together from what I have seen.

 

 

Oh they do when they're in that immature-dependent phase--let's say from 0-15. The marital relationship is, in large part, mediated through the childrens' dependencies. To a certain extent, eros is suborinated to child care.

 

After the kids become emancipated (from Mom and Dad), and "Mom and Dad" are again "Husband and Wife," thank your lucky stars that the erotic attraction, mutual interests and matrimonial bonds are still there. Because if they're not, the marriage loses its reason for being and withers away.

[Tony T]

"After the kids become emancipated (from Mom and Dad), and "Mom and Dad" are again "Husband and Wife," thank your lucky stars that the erotic attraction, mutual interests and matrimonial bonds are still there. Because if they're not, the marriage loses its reason for being and withers away."

 

That's a pretty giant gamble for people to make. It seems, therefore, that humanity throws away all reason in favor of procreation. I guess that's the way it's supposed to be. And by the time the kids are gone, if the attraction and bonds are not still there, it may be more expedient to have an affair rather than risk divorce and losing some accumulated assets.

 

Having children is a very major sacrifice and a gamble that may or may not pay off. It's amazing to see humans do something so incredibly instinctual when reason would have them give such a whole lot more thought.