Is it normal to second guess?

[guiltofone]

psionyx, you are touching on what I was getting at. I understand the attempt to fight for the relationship. My problem is that for me, it really is over. It's hard to comprehend sometimes because it's the only life I have known, but this is where my life has led me. If she can't come to accept this, then doing something drastic like having an affair seems like something most people understand as "it's over". But I have no desire to hurt anyone in this way. I'm sure the pain of being cheated on is far greater than the pain of being told that someone doesn't love you anymore. It certainly feels like it would be easier to go have an affiar and then have the W get angry with me and kick me out and tell me it's over. Most people won't call this whole situation "honorable", but isn't it better that I am being honest about my feelings?

[AudentesFortuna]

Wow. This site is so amazing. I'm seeing my divorce from the OTHER side. You sound exactly like my STBX. Down to the part of not having any friends. You are saying the same things, you are denying the same things, you say you feel exactly like she has said she is feeling. You both give the exact same reasons for leaving. She is leaving because she got caught in an EA. I suspect she is depressed too, probably because we can't have kids. Look into and embrace therapy. It has done wonders for me. It can do the same for you but you have to embrace it fully. Good luck.

[Yasuandio]

Is it possible we are missing a critical piece of this story? Could that be why this thread doesn't seem to make any sense? Well, we do know what Judge Judy says about that: "things that don't make sense."

 

Perhaps the longer this waltz lasts, the sooner the missing link may be suggested. I have five possible theories, a couple of which I could embrace with moderate doubt. However, I am finially learning when it time to shut up, like now.

 

Good luck Mr. Guiltofone. Yas

Edited August 1, 2011 by Yasuandio

[AudentesFortuna]

Is it possible we are missing a critical piece of this story? Could that be why this thread doesn't seem to make any sense? Well, we do know what Judge Judy says about that: "things that don't make sense."

 

Perhaps the longer this waltz lasts, the sooner the missing link may be suggested. I have my theory, but I am finially learning when it time to shut up, like now.

 

Good luck Mr. Guiltofone. Yas

 

Yeah. I've only been here for 2 months but I have come to know and respect the wisdom of this crowd and things have been suggested already.

[itllgetbetter]

You've said below that there was "light flirting on her part but , but mostly just friendly conversation at work and texting outside of work." The first time she lightly flirted with you, what did you say/do to prevent her from doing this again? I note that in a subsequent comment, you say that you're not good at reading people and when a woman asked you out for a drink, you flashed her your wedding band. Doesn't sound like you did that with this woman who was "lightly flirting" with you, but, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Why were you texting her outside of work? Would you have minded if your W read the texts? If your W was present during these discussions with this "friend" of yours, would your W have minded what was being discussed? It seems to me you were "distracted" by the attention your "friend" gave you and weren't focusing on your wife and kids. Any time spent with or thinking about or texting this OW was time taken away from your family.

 

"this is where life has led me" as you state below makes it sound as if you've no say in the course of your life. However, you can CHOOSE to work on your M.

 

You didn't answer the questions I posed in my previous comment, which I've set out below again:

 

What steps have you taken to "deal with it"?

 

You state that you haven't been a good husband (but you say in your responding comments that you were a good friend). Why is that?

 

You state that you have no friends. Why is that? How is it going to be easier to develop friendships when you're not M? Unless of course you're interested in developing friendships with other women which may lead to a relationship.

 

If you're not inclined to answer the questions, no problem.

[guiltofone]

Yeah, I have gotten this on another message board too. And people want to assume that I am an ******* for wanting out and I MUST have some alterior motive or something MUST be going on with another person.

 

Both a physical affair and emotional affair have been asked and answered. I don't know what more to say to those questions. Hasn't happened, and don't plan on it happening.

 

Maybe its strange because it is not the norm? Isn't it possible that I have just had enough of living the way I was and would like to change it? That getting out of a relationship that is full of me lying to my wife and allowing both of us the chance to continue on in our own ways a decent thing to do?

 

You may be reading too much into it. I would like to think I'm not a complex person, just very analytical. I have been a faithful boyfriend/husband for 18 years. but for many of those years it has been grinding on me that I am just lying to make everyone else happy. I don't know what the breaking point was, but I hit my limit of how much I could contain. She saw it on my face one day and thats when things started crashing down.

[itllgetbetter]

What is it that she saw on your face as you put it?

[itllgetbetter]

Take a look at p. 8 of the thread "Is there hope?" and the material that debtman posted. Essentially he says that people can work through ANYTHING.

 

Sorry to dwell on this but, you haven't answered any of the questions I posed previously. It'd be easier to focus your attention on the issues I've raised rather than dealing with the fallout of a D. The reason I put the Q's to you is so that you'd focus and think about what you're doing instead of solely trying to justify your departure.

[psionyx]

An honest question, that will hopefully get an honest answer: why is it an automatic assumption that in the end, the OP, or his wife, are better off staying together versus not? What evidence is this based on? Or is this purely a reflection of societal bias ("love must last forever")?

[guiltofone]

Sorry itllgetbetter, I missed your post when responding to the others. The difference between the two situations, light flirting and being asked out for drinks, I would think is obvious. I was being asked out on a date of sorts, of course I would say no to this. The girl who had asked me out were not friends, I had no reason to even talk with her other than we worked together at the time. Flirting is ok in my book. My wife is very flirty, it is something I have learned to tolerate. When the friend at work was flirting, I took as her general nature and didn't say anything to urge her to stop. On a side note, I am bad at confrontation, I really wouldn't know how to approach the topic of asking her to stop without feeling like I was being rude about it. But regardless, most people enjoy flirting to a certain extent, it makes you feel good to know that someone else might find you attractive.

 

The texting outside of work was known to my wife. She knows we talk, just not the subject of the conversation. This is where I know that maybe I shouldn't have gone, but I felt comfortable talking to her because she has been through a divorce and a bad break up herself and I was looking for some sort of comfort. The conversation was not always about my marriage problems and how I am feeling, it eventually came up and the opening to talk about it was there. The wife would not be happy about that, though she doesn't have much room to talk as she has many male friends she has turned to for advice since I have brought the subject of divorce up.

 

I feel I have lost control of my life, and my aim is to take it back. Yes, I have made plenty of decisions that brought me here, but too much of that was made out of ignorance, a lack of guidance, a lack of understanding on how to develop a healthy relationship with anyone, including myself, fear, guilt, shame. These are the feelings that I have been living with and hiding from everyone. Apparently it has all culminated to the pain she saw on my face. She had never asked me what was wrong before, she was able to see that something was wrong.

 

As I said, I started therapy, but I suppose that's sort of a false positive. I am not in therapy to try and work on my marriage, more so to help myself deal with all the emotions that are running pretty high at this point and to get some guidance on where to go from here.

 

She was quick to point out that she has been waiting for me to love her the way she loves me. I understand what she means, I just don't show this emotion well. She says I never supported her in the things she wanted to do, I never did the little things that might show I was thinking of her and that I cared. So in the sense of being a good husband, I guess I wasn't. But I do feel I am a good friend. I am a loyal person, loyal to a fault, but some people appreciate that. I am a good guy, or so I have been told. The few friends I have seem to appreciate me. I help out with most everything.

 

As far as friends, I am just real shy and non social. I like to spend a lot of time alone. This was the cause for a recent argument. Long story short, I went to the movies alone on my birthday, even though the family wanted to go. I don't know that it will be easier to develop friendships outside of the marriage, she is the talkative one who brings all the friends. But that isn't a concern of mine. I will assume her friends will side with her and I will become the outcast. Some of my friends may have problems with the route I am taking, but I'm not asking them to stick around if they can't deal with it. I would imagine I have more pressing things to worry about than friends. The ones who stick around, cool, the ones who don't, that's their choice. My day consists of work, talking with my kids, and being unmotivated in life at the moment.

 

As far as having a relationship with anyone afterwards, well if it happens, it happens. I work on routines, my life will be structured, I will be focused on several other things that will take precedent over another woman. And I wouldn't even know how to approach the subject with my kids yet. Once my life is in order and things are on track, my kids have adjusted to the situation, maybe then I can look at giving things another go. But that's not even on my radar.

 

I would imagine that people could work through most anything. But you have to have the desire to want to work on it.

 

psionyx, again, you have brought up another good point. I had thought at one point that my wife might have felt the same as I do about our relationship. That we make good friends, but the love has died. She had briefly touched on having a mid life crisis herself. Sort of panicked about the kids growing up so fast, one is almost out of high school. After reading a bit on mid life crisis for women, it seems that many women feel they are stripped of their identity when the kids are gone from the house. They are no longer needed as mom. Once the kids are gone, you are faced with the person you have been living with for all those years. She even said, what if we don't like each other? And the honest truth is we don't have anything in common. We don't share similar interests or hobbies. Our pictures of places we would like to live are drastically different. The life styles we live are opposites. Some of our core values are different. We disagree about how to handle the finances.

 

When I look at all of this, it just says to me, our relationship has run its course. Let's not drive it into the ground and beat it to a bloody pulp. Lets not spend money we don't have and time I don't want to waste on trying to fix a failed marriage. Let's focus on the kids by being cordial and responsible co parents that can depend on each other to make the right choices for them. Let's not wait till our early 40's and the kids have left the house to call it quits and let the hate a resentment build up.

 

I feel this is being responsible. It's going to hurt, it's going to be scary, but it's going to be all right. Life lessons learned, good memories to look back on, two kids to love and help grow.

[Yasuandio]

Guilt o fony? I'm not convinced. IMO, something is missing here. The story is too pat, and firmed up. Everything is rationalized to a tee.

[guiltofone]

It's what I do. I am super analytical. I have sat and looked at this situation for a long time in several ways. And of course everything should be rationalized. It has to be. Most people can rationalize the things they do. This is not a decision that I have come to lightly, I would like to think I did my due diligence in coming to this conclusion. I am a cool, calm, and collected person when my feelings aren't involved. More so through a forum like this where I can think about the exact words I am using.

 

I think many people assume the catalyst to this kind of event is an affair. And after years of watching Jerry Springer, I can see why. It typically is. It just isn't in this case. So what is missing? Ask away, I have answered everything else.

[itllgetbetter]

Despite what you say, I think Yasuandio's correct - my money's on the EA with whom you were confiding regarding your M difficulties.

 

You're "super analytical" and have looked at "this situation for a long time"? - Too bad you didn't include your W in your thought process but instead discussed this with a female friend. That's REALLY disrespectful.

 

Do you actually have kids because you don't seem too concerned about leaving them? Sorry if the aforementioned offends you, but I don't understand how you can be so calm in light of leaving not just your W, but your kids as well. Of course, not having kids myself, I'm not an authority on that. BUT, I do have a couple of nieces and when the older one refers to missing her uncle, I find it very upsetting.

 

I disagree with your statement that you've answered "everything else". You've used up a lot of space but haven't actually said much at all.

 

Light flirting's okay? Really? Would you have 'lightly flirted" with someone if your W was next to you? Wouldn't you have felt uncomfortable if a woman was "lightly flirting" with you and your W was next to you?

 

You state: "I am bad at confrontation, I really wouldn't know how to approach the topic (ie., of flirting with you) of asking her to stop without feeling like I was being rude about it". So, if she'd kissed you, would you have had difficulty approaching the topic because you wouldn't have wanted to be rude?

 

You also state: "flirting to a certain extent, it makes you feel good to know that someone else might find you attractive." Is that what it takes to make you feel good about yourself? I would think that having a loving W, who's standing by you through this, would make you feel really attractive knowing that despite your behavior, your W is REALLY loyal.

 

One obvious difference between you talking/texting to this woman is that you were sharing with her information that you weren't relaying to your W - perhaps you could have discussed with your W whatever it is you were discussing with this OW.

 

In addition, you say that since the subject of divorce came up, your W was speaking with male friends. It doesn't sound like your W was speaking with them before the subject of D came up.

 

Your aim is to "take back control of your life"? And you do that by destroying the lives of all around you?? And that will make you feel good about yourself? I can't emphasize enough how selfish that is.

 

Your comments about not being a good husband and not supporting her and not doing "little things", etc. for her also indicate you're selfish.

 

So, you're spending time on "getting guidance on where to go from here" - maybe you could try MC? Again, this indicates selfishness on your part by attending IC for yourself but not ATTEMPTING to work on the M.

 

"more pressing things to worry about than friends" - actually, even if it's you that wants out of the M, you may find that you need friends to listen to you from time to time - that'll be a problem if you don't have any friends, which is the way you've put it in a previous post.

 

"Once my life is in order and things are on track, my kids have adjusted to the situation, maybe then I can look at giving things another go" - perhaps I'm missing something, but, it sounds like you plan on leaving your W and kids and eventually when you're feeling better about yourself you may return to them? Is that correct? If so, you're going to destroy their lives as they know them only to possibly return to them? That's absolutely absurd. It's also absurd to to think that things might be better with someone else down the road since, it doesn't sound as if your W's the problem, but rather, you are, so, maybe you could work on yourself while you've got a loving, supportive family to fall back on.

 

"our relationship has run its course" - you haven't tried MC. Before you give up on the M, you should do everything you can to work on it and it doesn't sound like you've done any work at all on it - btw, is your therapist one who says "do whatever makes you feel good - do what's best for you"? If so, before you leave your W and kids, perhaps you can give your therapist a BIG retainer to provide counselling to your W and kids when you leave them - they'll definitely need it.

 

You don't have anything in common with your W? Didn't you have things in common with her when you got M? If so, what's changed?

 

"We don't share similar interests or hobbies. Our pictures of places we would like to live are drastically different. The life styles we live are opposites. Some of our core values are different. We disagree about how to handle the finances. " Have you discussed these issues with your W? I'd bet that if you had a frank discussion with your W about these issues and how much they're troubling you (if that's indeed correct, and, I suspect it isn't), she'd be supportive - but, I'd also bet that you've made up your mind to leave and you don't want to give her the opportunity to try to rectify things.

 

This is a very irresponsible thing you're going to do, and not what I'd call "responsible" as you've referred to it below.

 

You looking at the situation without the involvement of your wife is a problem - again, you should give her the opportunity to rectify things instead of making such a life-altering decision for her, without any input from her.

 

Finally, I don't know how to make the boxes with quotes in them so that I can insert my comments below the boxes.

 

p.s. I don't watch Jerry Springer.

 

psionyx: It's not societal bias that M couples should stay together. They made wedding vows and before they disregard them, they should do everything they can to make the M work.

[dontKnowMe]

An honest question, that will hopefully get an honest answer: why is it an automatic assumption that in the end, the OP, or his wife, are better off staying together versus not? What evidence is this based on? Or is this purely a reflection of societal bias ("love must last forever")?

 

I believe that it is societal bias. People are strongly taught not only that you should be married but that once you do there's nothing that should break it apart. Why? Because of some promise that you repeated when most people were more concerned about how the woman's dress looked?

 

I have read that people are generally happier in their marriages these days. Why? Because people aren't (as) afraid to end a bad marriage anymore. But on this board so many people say "you have to stick it out" and their reasoning is vows. Vows are a fairy tale! It makes for a great book or movie but it's not REAL. People are happy because society has lessened the stigma associated with divorce.

 

Divorce is GOOD for many situations and not just those where abuse or cheating is involved. People change! What value is there in holding onto something that is broken? Why waste your life? Oh right, because you made a promise. How could anyone get married if they fully understood this?

 

On the topic of this thread: I think the OP is in introvert in agony. I think he's different from most people in that he can analyze his own thoughts and behaviors. He knows that there is no love. He can see it. He sees it early. Most people don't see this in themselves and unconsciously seek out affairs. The OP simply came to the conclusion earlier than most people do.

 

I also think the OP should try to change his attitude. Stop beating yourself up dude! No one likes to see someone beat themself up. It's OK to be disappointed in yourself but don't take it to extremes. You know that's what you are doing! You are being overly dramatic with yourself and it will not help you. Realize that either you made a mistake a long time ago or that you have changed. Figure out the solution and start fixing the problem (which is what you are trying to do). But let it go. People change. Mistakes happen. There's nothing wrong with that. It happens to everyone.

[guiltofone]

I'll keep these answers brief since there is a lot of questions asked.

 

Finding someone to talk to does not constitute an EA. If she has any interest in me, I have not picked up on it. I have not expressed interest, nor do I flirt back.

 

I realize this was a mistake. As stated, lack of knowledge on how to maintain and grow a relationship was, and to a certain degree, is still beyond me. The W was my second girlfriend starting at the age of 16, we were inexperienced in this.

 

Yes, my son is 9 and my dughter is 15. I am not leaving them. I am leaving my W. I will be there every morning to take them to school, pick them up on the days I would need to, pick them up on days I am scheduled visitation, be at all family, medical, and school functions. I am confident in the fact that my W and I can maintain a civil and even friendly relationship, if only for the kids.

 

I thought I answered everything, if I missed something, sorry.

 

Yes, flirting is absolutely acceptable. I DO NOT flirt, I am extremely shy. I was being flirted with. My W is a flirt, I have learned to deal with that. There is no issues with me or my W flirting. I couldn't stop another woman from flirting with me, but I would be red in the face and the W would think it was cute.

 

I do not put myself in the position of being kissed or anything to that effect. I would not hesitate to pull away. If the friends had tried this, that would end the friendship from my end. I am loyal, I have said this.

 

Not the only thing that makes me feel good, but when someone compliments you, it feels nice. Just being a loving W may not be enough. When the need to show affection starts to disappear, you run that risk. I am not someone who gives compliments much, but I am affectionate. Having low self esteem, I enjoy when she would be affectionate with me, but that became less and less over time.

 

She has always had male friends. Another thing I have learned to accept. The comment was geared towards the fact that she was mad that I had not said anything to a real life friend, rather a bunch of people on a message board that I don't know.

 

I suppose this could be viewed as selfish. It's not destroying, it's altering. If she feels destroyed after all this, that is on her. I am prepared to pick myself up by the boot straps and start rebuilding. It won't make me feel good about the altering, but rather the rebuilding.

 

Agreed, but for the record, I have supported her in all the things she has tried and is doing.

 

The M is dead for me, plain and simple. I do not wish to invest time in the attempt to fix it, I'd rather spend the time moving on and moving forward.

 

Again, agreed. I enjoyed my therapy session last weekend. I have another tomorrow. The few friends I have may prove useful. We will see. I am not above looking for support online, maybe not here, but you get the idea. I may look into other forms of therapy, I dunno.

 

I think you misunderstood this. I have A LOT of work to do on my self. Once that is in order and my kids have are comfortable in the adjustment of the ne situation, and I feel comfortable doing it, then I may consider looking into dating. I do not expect to return to my W, although I suppose stranger things have happened. I would hope she finds happiness in her new life, be it friends, hobbies, career, or new man.

 

The therapist did say that. That some people just understand when the relationship has run its course. The W is considering starting therapy for herself, I will encourage this. I will aslo talk to her about counseling for the kids. So far, it has all been covered by her insurance.

 

We were young, we have grown and changed drastically. I tolerated the lack of similar interests because I wanted to be with someone. Bad choice on my part.

 

I have discussed all this with her. It just never seemed to matter too much to either of us to make the effort to really do anything about them, with the exception of the core values. Hers are changing as she is starting a new path in her career. I have given up on things like arguing about finances and hobbies and things like this. It just didn't seem to matter that we were different. Maybe I didn't stress enough about how was making me feel. We had ample opportunity to fix all of these things, it didn't seem to matter to either of us.

 

Unless you have kept every single promise you have ever made, a wedding vow should be no different.

[guiltofone]

dontKnowMe, thank you. I appreciate your view on this, it is refreshing. I do wish I had caught it early enough to have had the desire to fix it, but such is life.

 

Agreed, I have been feeling better these past few days, I do get into some pretty low points. I have both, made mistakes and changed a lot, now I am trying to get through this situation to start healing.